Kimmage on Wiggins, Sky

[peterst6906]

A 2 week taper you say? You simply and utterly are totally clueless regarding elite cycling preparation. This is what is so laughable about everything you write on this forum, you act as if you're gods gift to cycling performance analysis but you don't know sh!t. I lecture exercise physiology at tertiary level and I can honestly say that out of the hundreds of undergrad students I've taught over the past 2-3yrs, you would have to be in the bottom 10%. Biggest tryhard wannabe cycling expert on this entire forum, probably the entire internet.

Time to step away from the keyboard for a bit Krebs, it's only an internet forum and this post won't lead anywhere good.

You won't be able to educate DW, so the investment is not worth the trouble.

I understand the value of debunking charlatans, but sometimes it's doesn't make any difference anyway.

 

[shojii]

Beatin' the bishop, eh.

Haha! When you gotta go, you gotta go...

Right, better go. I've got something really important to do!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

KC is using the same tactic that he always does when trying to prove something that is untrue: he cites a study that studied something different or had different parameters than the study being discussed.

In this instance, we are discussing the effects of 2 weeks at altitude having no impact on TT performance 2 weeks later.

I suggest that the same impact would occur for an athlete who trains at altitude for the Tour then comes back to sea level for 2 weeks of taper, then rides a week of flat land riding at the Tour before hitting any significant hills.

I will highlight the petinent fallacy of the new study cited by Krebs in his quote below:

<personal attack>

<misplace use of the word "strawman">

here is a good recent study on the subject.....

Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2009 Mar;4(1):134-8.
Improved race performance in elite middle-distance runners after cumulative altitude exposure.
Saunders PU, Telford RD, Pyne DD, Gore CJ, Hahn AG.

We quantified the effect of an extended live high-train low (LHTL) simulated altitude exposure followed by a series of training camps at natural moderate altitude on competitive performance in seven elite middle-distance runners (Vo2max 71.4 +/- 3.4 mL.min-1.kg-1, mean +/- SD). Runners spent 44 +/- 7 nights (mean +/- SD) at a simulated altitude of 2846 +/- 32 m, and a further 4 7- to 10-d training at natural moderate altitude (1700-2200 m) before racing. The combination of simulated LHTL and natural altitude training improved competitive performance by 1.9% (90% confidence limits, 1.3-2.5%). Middle-distance runners can confidently use a combination of simulated and natural altitude to stimulate adaptations responsible for improving performance.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19417235

44+/- 7 nights. That's 37 - 51 nights. ie 5 - 7 weeks at altitude. Nothing like the 3 weeks cited by Kerrison who was actually there, in Tenerife.

And all that for 1.9% improvement? Seriously?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Time to step away from the keyboard for a bit Krebs, it's only an internet forum and this post won't lead anywhere good.

You won't be able to educate DW, so the investment is not worth the trouble.

I understand the value of debunking charlatans, but sometimes it's doesn't make any difference anyway.

A 2 week taper you say? You simply and utterly are totally clueless regarding elite cycling preparation. This is what is so laughable about everything you write on this forum, you act as if you're gods gift to cycling performance analysis but you don't know sh!t. I lecture exercise physiology at tertiary level and I can honestly say that out of the hundreds of undergrad students I've taught over the past 2-3yrs, you would have to be in the bottom 10%. Biggest tryhard wannabe cycling expert on this entire forum, probably the entire internet.

Ok Krebs, seeing as you're the expert, and peterst6906 seeing as you're the instant believer in everything Krebs says, answer me this:

I just said 2 week taper - and we're specifically talking pre-Tour.

You, Krebs, crap on personally about me and how blah blah blah blah but you can't get a real job as a physiologist any more so you're forced to lecture 1 day a week at a tertiary college but I am so dumb I say they do 2 weeks of taper pre-Tour.

Tell me. Peter the "DW is a charlatan" denigrator or Krebs the expert: how many weeks do the riders taper pre-Tour?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I don't know armchairclimber personally, but what I can say is that there is a very clear and very strong consensus in the scientific literature which stretches back 40yrs that shows if you train at altitude, then you perform better at altitude. Since many of the critical stages of the TdF where time is won and lost are performed at altitude, then it is pretty much imperative to train at altitude if you want to win the TdF. Anything that you can possibly say or fantasize which disputes this fact I won't bother to argue with because you are simply going to be wrong.

Yet Wiggins did no altitude training in 2009 and came 4th. Take out the doper and he came 3rd.

 

[sittingbison]

Yet Wiggins did no altitude training in 2009 and came 4th. Take out the doper and he came 3rd.

take out the other doper and he came 2nd.

 

[blackcat]

take out the dope, and he was in the autobus

 

[peterst6906]

Tell me....blah, some crap I couldn't care less about

Ok, I'll tell you: you really are a w*nker.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

A 2 week taper you say? You simply and utterly are totally clueless regarding elite cycling preparation. This is what is so laughable about everything you write on this forum, you act as if you're gods gift to cycling performance analysis but you don't know sh!t. I lecture exercise physiology at tertiary level and I can honestly say that out of the hundreds of undergrad students I've taught over the past 2-3yrs, you would have to be in the bottom 10%. Biggest tryhard wannabe cycling expert on this entire forum, probably the entire internet.

Time to step away from the keyboard for a bit Krebs, it's only an internet forum and this post won't lead anywhere good.

You won't be able to educate DW, so the investment is not worth the trouble.

I understand the value of debunking charlatans, but sometimes it's doesn't make any difference anyway.

Here's a hint for you and peterst6906, discussing Wiggins 2011 season:

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/all-aboard-the-magic-bus/

“But the Dauphiné has been carefully planned. Winning it is fantastic – or would be fantastic,” he says, careful not to get ahead of himself. “If it had been planned as a peak, then sure, it might have been difficult to get back up for the Tour but it wasn’t. He didn’t back off after Bayern and taper. He raced well at Bayern, then had a good week of training. He came here already fatigued. He’s not come into this race fresh, so it’s been good to see what he can do in a race on the back of a block of work. After this we’ll do four more days at altitude in Sestriere and then taper for the Tour.”

Bayern ends: 29/05/2011
Dauphine starts: 5/06/2011 (1 week of training later)
Dauphine ends: 12/06/2011
4 days of training ends: 17/06/2011

?????TAPER?????

Tour starts: July 2nd, 2011

Now tell me, Krebs you PhD expert and peterst who calls me a charlatan, how much time between 17th June 2011 and the 2nd of July, 2011?

SPEAK UP I CANNOT HEAR YOU!!????

 

[sittingbison]

Ok, I'll tell you: you really are a w*nker.

FFS get it right. The correct term is "****ing ****er, Bone idle lazy ****"

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Here's another hint, for you alleged experts and people who swallow whatever they do so quickly and readily:

2012 Tour preparation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/18527994

But still, when we spoke, it was after he had spent more than five hours in the saddle that morning, grinding up the savage and beautiful peaks of Majorca's Trentamura range.

Wiggins allows himself to puff his chest a little: "Five and a half hours as part of the tapering - that seems mind-boggling to a lot of people. But that's our daily life. Actually at this point - two weeks before the Tour - it hardly skims the surface.

 

[peterst6906]

SPEAK UP I CANNOT HEAR YOU!!????

If you can actually here anything written on this forum then you just need to realise, it's only the voices in your head.

There are pills for that though, so not all lost.

PS. The absence of racing does not equal tapering. They are not necessarily directly linked concepts.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Ok, I'll tell you: you really are a w*nker.

So you don't know? You call me a charlatan, then a w*nker? Because I suggest there's a 2 week taper I'm a charlatan, but when I asked you how long the taper was in actuality, you get personal?

And people question MY believability.

Right.

I'll stick to the facts. You and Krebs and armchaircyclist can stick to insulting me and others, but really, anyone else should open their eyes. Playing the man is not good arguing, it's weak and lazy.

 

[peterst6906]

So you don't know? You call me a charlatan, then a w*nker? Because I suggest there's a 2 week taper I'm a charlatan, but when I asked you how long the taper was in actuality, you get personal

See my previous post. Please explain how the break between races is equivalent to tapering.

Are all riders tapering at the moment for next season?

I don't quite get the logical connection you seem to think is so obvious.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

See my previous post. Please explain how the break between races is equivalent to tapering.

Are all riders tapering at the moment for next season?

I don't quite get the logical connection you seem to think is so obvious.

You must be hard of reading. The rider himself says, "AND THEN I AM TAPERING BEFORE THE TOUR". I even quoted him bolded in red and provided a link to the source - for both 2011 and 2012 Tours.

But no, don't read my post, just keep spewing your insults.

As for your previous post, you edited it and added more words after I asked the quesiton in a new post - not really sure why you thought I would see your edit.

 

[peterst6906]

You must be hard of reading. The rider himself says, "AND THEN I AM TAPERING BEFORE THE TOUR". I even quoted him and provided a link to the source - for both 2011 and 2012 Tours.

But no, don't read my post, just keep spewing your insults.

I can read the post no problem. However, even the quote refers to an additional 4 days training prior to tapering. There is no indication of when those days were in the schedule, ie. starting the day after or after a day or 2 rest/recovery.

There just isn't enough information, even for that one situation to draw a conclusion that the absence of racing = tapering and there certainly isn't sufficient information to use that to draw a general trend.

However, this part is just a distraction from the earlier discussion between you and Krebs. You clearly have an inability to understand basic science which is a shame. You obviously like to contribute and try to do so constructively, but you stray into areas that you know nothing about and then complain when others point that out.

But I've had enough too now.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I can read the post no problem. However, even the quote refers to an additional 4 days training prior to tapering. There is no indication of when those days were in the schedule, ie. starting the day after or after a day or 2 rest/recovery.

There just isn't enough information, even for that one situation to draw a conclusion that the absence of racing = tapering and there certainly isn't sufficient information to use that to draw a general trend.

However, this part is just a distraction from the earlier discussion between you and Krebs. You clearly have an inability to understand basic science which is a shame. You obviously like to contribute and try to do so constructively, but you stray into areas that you know nothing about and then complain when others point that out.

But I've had enough too now.

It's patently clear to someone who speaks english as a first language, but you can spin it any way you like, in 2012 he says - 2 weeks before the tour we are currently tapering.

So yeah.

As for my earlier point with Krebs, I've already debunked his follow-up study. At no point did any of these guys do 5-7 weeks at altitude. Never. 2-3 weeks max. And a 2 week taper, followed by a week at flat land in the Tour is 3 weeks. All that altitude training is detrained, or the vast majority of it.

You disagree with me and agree with Krebs Cycle at the drop of hat, after saying "I don't know", throwing an insult my way in the process - but you don't even try to understand yourself. Because a PhD says something and offers an irrelevant study as "proof".

It's upsetting to me to be called a charlatan, because you are essentially calling me a liar and I hate lying with a passion.

So I'm going to ignore you and your Krebs Cycle obsession, so I no longer have to read your personal attacks and put-downs. All the best with lapping up whatever else Krebs throws your way.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's patently clear to someone who speaks english as a first language, but you can spin it any way you like, in 2012 he says - 2 weeks before the tour we are currently tapering.

So yeah.

As for my earlier point with Krebs, I've already debunked his follow-up study. At no point did any of these guys do 5-7 weeks at altitude. Never. 2-3 weeks max. And a 2 week taper, followed by a week at flat land in the Tour is 3 weeks. All that altitude training is detrained, or the vast majority of it.

You disagree with me and agree with Krebs Cycle at the drop of hat, after saying "I don't know", throwing an insult my way in the process - but you don't even try to understand yourself. Because a PhD says something and offers an irrelevant study as "proof".

It's upsetting to me to be called a charlatan, because you are essentially calling me a liar and I hate lying with a passion.

So I'm going to ignore you and your Krebs Cycle obsession, so I no longer have to read your personal attacks and put-downs. All the best with lapping up whatever else Krebs throws your way.

This was reported on the 13 June 2011 just after Wiggins won the Dauphine:

“Bradley will take a couple of days off now to recover but then he’s travelling on to Sestriere for a block of altitude training," confirmed Team Sky principal Dave Brailsford after Wiggins was crowned Dauphine champion.

This was Wiggins program for 2012:

Wiggins and his back-up team are mindful of this. He returned to sea-level on May 26, one week before the Critérium du Dauphiné (June 3-10) to allow for a week for the ‘post-altitude slump', a period when the body readjusts, and for Wiggins to recover from the heavy workload. Team Sky will hold an altitude camp from just after the Dauphiné until June 24, which riders can drop in and out of, and I was told that Wiggins would be there for the duration but I understand he has done some route reconnoitring in France as well.

 

[peterst6906]

This was reported on the 13 June 2011 just after Wiggins won the Dauphine:


This was Wiggins program for 2012:

Excellent post Mas. I know that probably makes me a drooling fanboy of your posts, but I just prefer to think of it as an interest in the truth.

 

[the sceptic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X50Uc2FdXy8

Paul Kimmage ‏@PaulKimmage

@Digger_forum Yeah, that's Dave's catch phrase: "Call me naive."

Never seen that video before.

 

[sniper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X50Uc2FdXy8



Never seen that video before.

saw it.
the guy who doesnt talk, porte, seems most uncomfortable.
brailsford doing his best to hide his annoyance.
froome looks, i don't know, rather bald, i guess.

 

[thehog]

saw it.
the guy who doesnt talk, porte, seems most uncomfortable.
brailsford doing his best to hide his annoyance.
froome looks, i don't know, rather bald, i guess.

Would you trust these men?

 

[blackcat]

Would you trust these men?

not even for a reach around

 

[Benotti69]

Would you trust these men?

the arms crossed defence pose from Brailsford is interesting

 

[MartinGT]

The body language on them says a lot IMO.

Bang to rights.