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Koechli & Helvetia/La Suisse-the clean team

I was just wondering if anybody has any info on the Weinmann/Helvetia team from late 80s/early 90s.

This is what I have gathered so far.

It would seem that their DS Paul Koechli was very anti-drugs and didnt tolerate any form of doping. I remember Winning magazine interviewed him in 92 and he said he didnt like riders who took shotrcuts like doping. Of course Koechli was also DS at La Vie Claire during the Hinault/LeMond era.

Gilles Delion, regarded as the first openly anti-doping rider rode for Helvetia and claims that doping was never even discussed on the team. Sorry for bad translation, google:rolleyes:

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/portraits/delion.htm

Within the Team Helvetia, I swam in an oasis of serenity, quiet, away from it all. It was not our concern. We do not talk about doping in the training, we were not aware of what was happening. The ancients did not speak either. But it is clear that 93 everyone knew that a new product has landed in the platoon, EPO


Steve Bauer was the star rider at the team 88-90 and managed 4th in the 88 Tour once again highlighting the fact that perhaps it was possible to compete at a high level cleanly in the 80s. They had some other decent riders like Pascal Richard, Jean Claude LeClercq, Gerard Rue.

What is sad about Helvetia is that they had such a good bunch of young riders in the early 90s who presumably started of clean but ended up going down a bad road when Helvetia folded at the advent of the EPO era.

Laurent Dufaux, Rolf Aldag, Fabain Jeker, Beat Zberg, Heinrich Trumheller all started out there and had fantastic results. Mauro Gianetti was another but he was more of a domestique. Former Festina director also started out at Helvetia before moving to RMO where his methods were not liked by Thierry Claveyrolat who seemed to be the doping ringleader at RMO.

Surely Koechli's team were the prfect example of a team who could compete cleanly in the 80s but lost their way in the EPO era. I know that(non Helvetia) Urs Zimmermann was mentioned in another thread as a possible doper but somebody posted that Zimmermann was very anti-doping. If so then that would put Zimmermann, Mottet, Winnen & Bauer as riders who all finished top 5 in the Tour in the 80s riding cleanly.

Can anybody provide any more info, opinions on Koechli & his riders or for those who claim it was impossible to compete in the 80s without drugs dispel these stories.
 
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pmcg76 said:
I was just wondering if anybody has any info on the Weinmann/Helvetia team from late 80s/early 90s.

This is what I have gathered so far.

It would seem that their DS Paul Koechli was very anti-drugs and didnt tolerate any form of doping. I remember Winning magazine interviewed him in 92 and he said he didnt like riders who took shotrcuts like doping. Of course Koechli was also DS at La Vie Claire during the Hinault/LeMond era.

Gilles Delion, regarded as the first openly anti-doping rider rode for Helvetia and claims that doping was never even discussed on the team. Sorry for bad translation, google:rolleyes:

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/portraits/delion.htm

Within the Team Helvetia, I swam in an oasis of serenity, quiet, away from it all. It was not our concern. We do not talk about doping in the training, we were not aware of what was happening. The ancients did not speak either. But it is clear that 93 everyone knew that a new product has landed in the platoon, EPO


Steve Bauer was the star rider at the team 88-90 and managed 4th in the 88 Tour once again highlighting the fact that perhaps it was possible to compete at a high level cleanly in the 80s. They had some other decent riders like Pascal Richard, Jean Claude LeClercq, Gerard Rue.

What is sad about Helvetia is that they had such a good bunch of young riders in the early 90s who presumably started of clean but ended up going down a bad road when Helvetia folded at the advent of the EPO era.

Laurent Dufaux, Rolf Aldag, Fabain Jeker, Beat Zberg, Heinrich Trumheller all started out there and had fantastic results. Mauro Gianetti was another but he was more of a domestique. Former Festina director also started out at Helvetia before moving to RMO where his methods were not liked by Thierry Claveyrolat who seemed to be the doping ringleader at RMO.

Surely Koechli's team were the prfect example of a team who could compete cleanly in the 80s but lost their way in the EPO era. I know that(non Helvetia) Urs Zimmermann was mentioned in another thread as a possible doper but somebody posted that Zimmermann was very anti-doping. If so then that would put Zimmermann, Mottet, Winnen & Bauer as riders who all finished top 5 in the Tour in the 80s riding cleanly.

Can anybody provide any more info, opinions on Koechli & his riders or for those who claim it was impossible to compete in the 80s without drugs dispel these stories.
I remember Helvetica La Suisse being just below the top top rung in the late 80's to early 90's, giving credence to the accounts of Koechli's stance on doping. Once EPO kicked in their ability to keep up slipped away. Delion especially was touted as on Evian and one cannot but wonder about his seemingly premature retirement at 28. Looking at the 1992 roster though one also has to wonder if the rot had already set in.
http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/peletons/equipes.php?q=12382

Helvetica%2092.jpg
 
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Niki Rüttimann, Guido Winterberg and Urs Zimmermann have been 100% clean during their entire career.

The same can't be said about other riders mentioned in the initial post such as Pascal Richard, Laurent Dufaux, Mauro Gianetti, Beat Zberg and Fabian Jeker.

Köchli was been sharply anti-doping like Zimmermann as well.

However, the luck of both was, that in their best times, EPO was not yet flooding the peleton. The entry of EPO made it impossible to cleanly reach a Top 25 placement in a GT or even dream about a stage win.
 
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which is interesting in todays pro cycling world where 'supposedly' clean teams are getting results albeit few and far between Garmin/Sky!
 
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ultimobici said:
Explain please as your post doesn't read clearly.

Weinmann/Helvetia team was an anti-PED team, OK. well when EPO arrived they could not achieve any results,not even a top 25 in a GT. (correct me if i'm wrong but trusting posts above.)

Well Garmin got a 4th and 6th in 2009/2010 TdF for a 'clean' team. That is all. Sorry if it takes away from OPs original post about Weinmann/Helvetia. But i though it interesting in comparison to todays pro cycling.
 
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One EPO note from the earlier times

When EPO first arrived there ws no 50% "health check". So the Helvetia "clean" team would likely have been riding against guys jacked up to 55 or even higher. No way anyone could compete.
 
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Here's my story...

Alright, I grew up racing in that era - very late eighties, very early nineties...

Had outstanding palmares, touted as one of the most prodigal jrs of the era and grew into senior fame. At my innagural World Championships I was asked by a star (who's photos were literally on my bedroom wall - I was only seventeen) if I "had a good program". I told him that no, our program sucks - I hated the national team coach and his training programs sucked.

The Star looked at me like I was ***, and said "No! Hormones! Do you have a good hormone program?". I'm sure I looked at him equally retardedly, and said "Uh, no... I'm not really into that...".

His response to that was, "Hey, you're young and you're fast. You could be the best...".

That was about enough for me to leave the sport (almost... I stuck around racing for another few years). My father was a pro in his time (60s and very early 70s), and after getting thumped by guys who tested positive for amphetemines, had raised me with the ideals of what sport SHOULD be. I guess it stuck...

I bring this all up in terms of the era and team we've been talking about. After racing I was a DS in Europe and the USA, and with all the people I met and talked covertly with the consensus was that Bauer was totally clean.

I'd like to reiterate that - Bauer was clean!

I reinforced that because he rode how a clean rider rides - stomp it out when you can, get a lead, get in yellow, hold onto it as long as you can, and pray to God that you don't lose hours on everyone when you crack.

That's how Bauer rode... And he always cracked in the mountains, or somewhere else after ten days of racing. As any normal human would...

Contrast that with how the guys are throwing it down today...

I've been trolling here for a long time, and you've finally got me out of the closet. Good on ya CN! Intelligent forums - for the most part, and it really seems like people want to clean the sport out. Bring it on! I like Adam Meyerson's attitude of burining it to the ground.

Burn Mother****er, burn! Let the kids who want to REALLY race their bikes race their bikes. Do it for the next generation... this one's ****ed!
 
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Hi JM - I think you meant that you've been lurking here, not trolling, yes? ;)

Don't suppose you'd care to throw us a bone on who the Big Star was? :confused:
 
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Chuffy said:
Hi JM - I think you meant that you've been lurking here, not trolling, yes? ;)

Don't suppose you'd care to throw us a bone on who the Big Star was? :confused:

Oh yeah, lurking. Sorry, not too 'chat room savy'...

As to the Star? I'm not willing to say too much. Don't really want to fire up too much speculation or guessing...
 
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I like Beaushrimp's post...not sure how much is tongue in cheek. Steve Bauer, whom I know personally, is about 5' 8" and weighed around 170 lbs. I remember commentators likening him to a boxer more than a cyclist. Definitely not a Michael Rasmussen type. His one day race and Tour results, like those of Andy Hampsten and Greg Lemond, peaked in the period 1987-1990. Come 1991 and on, they couldn't keep up. EPO played a role in that, I believe. It seemed like the Euros discovered something that Helvetia-La Suisse and 7-11/Motorola didn't have. Obviously, I realize the three riders I mentioned aged during that period, but their results drop off was pretty dramatic.
 
Just wanted to pick up on a few things, someone mentioned the Helvetia squad of 92 and a few did go on to become renowned dopers. That was my point really, it was sad to see guys who started out on a clean team and were more than likely clean themselves have to go down the doping route because of EPO.

Some posters have defended Bauer, Zimmermann, Ruttiman & Winterberg as clean riders yet three of these guys had Top 10s in TdFs during the 80s. Surely this backs up the idea that it was possible to compete clean in that era before the arrival of EPO.

People can correct me but I think the Swiss riders named all quit after 92 season, coincidence???

Someone also mentioned the decline of LeMond, Bauer & Hampsten in the 90s but Hampsten actually went better in the 92/93 Tour than he had in previous races. Nitpciking I know but relevant.

Nothing really new or revelatory yet other than reinforcing certain thoughts on doping during that era.
 
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Hey, pmcg;

Thanks for starting this thread. I'm really enjoying hearing the names from the past that I admired. I've been on a decade-long haitus from cycling (mostly since LA started winning), but I'm liking the retrogade look at things.

Just wanted to make sure we don't get too 'tourcentric' and just look at the TdF or the other GTs for reference or inspiration. What about the above-mentioned riders' performance in the classics? Alot of them were truly impressive, if not winners (brings to mind Betinni at Paris-Roubaix, the human motorbike, for comparrison's sake).

As a totally off-side story, my father always figured that Criquielion threw himself into the fence in Belgium to avoid getting beaten by Bauer at the 88 Worlds in the homeland. Too bad for the Canadian, that was truly a nightmare situation to get out of... the crowd wanted to kill him!

Thanks again, pmcg. This is what I'd like cycling to get back to. The good old-school attitude of bike racing. Hard men trying to kick the **** out of each other to win.

Here's another aside - WTF with Contador giving the stage to Shleck after the boy couldn't drop him with attacks? Why did he give up the stage? To garner the infamy of a yellow jersey without winning a stage? It smells rotten to me. Hopefully we're not back to buying races. Or buying silence...

As I like to say, "Bring on the goatshow!".
 
This is a good thread.

Thanks JMB for coming out of hiding, whomever you are. Keep on posting.

By every indication Gilles Delion was one of the cleanest of clean riders. He had future talent/future Tour rider written all over him when he won the Maillot Blanc in 1990 and took 15th, but it wasn't long until his career was wiped in the EPO era. Willy Voet apologizes to him in his book, saying it was unfair that Giles was so health conscious and studying natural medicine, and yet he and all the dopers laughed at him. People talk about Bassons being one who may have won a clean Tour, yet his career was ruined by EPO, and it was, but the same easily could be said for Delion.

Keep in mind that Charly Mottet was also clean and anti-doping, and rode very well in that era, and even fairly well in 1991, with back to back stage wins.

As to Hampsten's 1992 performance, recall that he picked up around 4 minutes on Indurain winning Alpe d'Huez, and was in another mountain break, and still finished 13 minutes back. By the time he was 32, his career was over.

Pascal Richard, despite being one of my favorite riders ever because of his enduring smile and joy for cycling, was a client of Luigi Cecchini. Sadly, he was in good company.
 

Polish

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JMBeaushrimp said:
Alright, I grew up racing in that era - very late eighties, very early nineties...

At my innagural World Championships I was asked by a star ...!

JMB, just curious - what kind of sled were you riding back in the day?

And what component group on that lugged steel beaut?

Downtube shifters and toestraps, real chamois wow OMG....skidlid!

C'mon, give us a trip down memory lane!
 
Polish said:
JMB, just curious - what kind of sled were you riding back in the day?

And what component group on that lugged steel beaut?

Downtube shifters and toestraps, real chamois wow OMG....skidlid!

C'mon, give us a trip down memory lane!

Ya know, I was given a 1 point infraction (in the Cycling Myths thread) for posting that you were not a moron , but I am willing to risk further punishment by admitting that I was most likely wrong when I said that.
 

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JMBeaushrimp said:
Alright, I grew up racing in that era - very late eighties, very early nineties...
Had outstanding palmares......

J M Beaushrimp? I don't remember you either as a rider or DS. Is that your real name?
 
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Innocence by association --

I find it interesting that all these names being thrown about as "definitely clean" riders....Nikki Ruttiman, Guido Winterberg, SBauer....correct me if I'm wrong but all these guys were teammates of Lemond at LVClaire. As was Koechli the DS.

I just think it's interesting to hear this. Of course it backs up everything Lemond has always said...never rode on a team where there was a "team doctor", etc. And jibes well w/ the probable reasons there has NEVER been an ex-teammate in all these years who ever said a single peep about Lemond and dope.

I've enjoyed reading this thread... Seems intelligence so far has trumped all the nitwits and their "LA may have doped but so what, Lemond must have also" infantile powers of reasoning.

Probably only a matter of time until they stumble upon this thread :(

pmcg76 said:
Someone also mentioned the decline of LeMond, Bauer & Hampsten in the 90s but Hampsten actually went better in the 92/93 Tour than he had in previous races. Nitpciking I know but relevant.

Alright, as long as we're nitpicking, Hampsten was 4th in his first Tour ('86) and never improved upon that...right?
 
NashbarShorts said:
Alright, as long as we're nitpicking, Hampsten was 4th in his first Tour ('86) and never improved upon that...right?
Not sure what you're asking? We already discussed he was 4th again in 1992 after winning Alpe d'Huez.

If you look beyond the Tour and at his career, he also won the 1988 Giro in grand style, both the Maglia Rosa, and the KOM jersey, plus held the Ciclimino jersey for a few stages. Plus he won the 1987 and 1988 Tour du Suisse.

How "improved upon" are you looking for?
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Not sure what you're asking? We already discussed he was 4th again in 1992 after winning Alpe d'Huez.

Thought poster (pmcg..) was implying that while Lemond/Bauer, etc. declined as EPO took hold, Hampsten thrived. Just sayin' '92 notwithstanding, this was not really the case. By time the LA sheriff issued the '95 edict that Motorola was going to get on a program, the sport had pretty much passed Hampsten by. No?
 
NashbarShorts said:
Thought poster (pmcg..) was implying that while Lemond/Bauer, etc. declined as EPO took hold, Hampsten thrived. Just sayin' '92 notwithstanding, this was not really the case. By time the LA sheriff issued the '95 edict that Motorola was going to get on a program, the sport had pretty much passed Hampsten by. No?


I was just making the point that Hampstens decline was not as rapid as Bauer or particularly LeMond, not suggesting anything suspicious because I dont believe EPO didnt become prevalent until about 93/94.
 
JMBeaushrimp said:
Hey, pmcg;

Thanks for starting this thread. I'm really enjoying hearing the names from the past that I admired. I've been on a decade-long haitus from cycling (mostly since LA started winning), but I'm liking the retrogade look at things.

Just wanted to make sure we don't get too 'tourcentric' and just look at the TdF or the other GTs for reference or inspiration. What about the above-mentioned riders' performance in the classics? Alot of them were truly impressive, if not winners (brings to mind Betinni at Paris-Roubaix, the human motorbike, for comparrison's sake).

As a totally off-side story, my father always figured that Criquielion threw himself into the fence in Belgium to avoid getting beaten by Bauer at the 88 Worlds in the homeland. Too bad for the Canadian, that was truly a nightmare situation to get out of... the crowd wanted to kill him!

Thanks again, pmcg. This is what I'd like cycling to get back to. The good old-school attitude of bike racing. Hard men trying to kick the **** out of each other to win.

Here's another aside - WTF with Contador giving the stage to Shleck after the boy couldn't drop him with attacks? Why did he give up the stage? To garner the infamy of a yellow jersey without winning a stage? It smells rotten to me. Hopefully we're not back to buying races. Or buying silence...

As I like to say, "Bring on the goatshow!".

Only to happy to bring back the memories, I was just getting into cycling in that era, I was still a boy but hoovered up any info I could, I still have all my old magazines from that period so I like to dig them out and pore over them now and again, maybe its just a desire to hark back to more innocent times.

Its strange but I can probably name all the classics winners from back then better than I can name more recent winners.
 

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