Kreuziger going down?

[blackcat]

You guys never cease to brighten my day with your completely bonkers conspiracy theories.

We've had thunderstorms here, which might be hampering some teams with their TdF preparation (not Sky, because they've already done it). I hear Sky have been bombarding the upper atmosphere with gamma rays and alpha particles (and crap TV programmes) causing it to rain. Yes! Guilty! Join the dots, people!

go to Alex Jones for you fix

 

[JV1973]

It is two years. The initial abnormalities began in March 2011, yet he never received any notification until June 2013. The abnormalities in 2011 were reported to occur over a period of five months, and there were additional abnormalities in the spring of 2012, yet you think they needed 2013 data to confirm them, or to obtain more baseline data?

I understand how the biopassport works, probably better than most other posters here, and I understand that it’s very hard to build a sanctionable case. I understand the process of triggering the criteria, then sending the data to a panel of experts. But if either the 2011 or 2012 data triggered the criteria, the panel should have looked at it and reached a decision before May 2013.

It may be that because of the difficulty of building cases that UCI is now sitting on possibly suspicious data for years, constantly checking with new data. That is, they may not even make the determination of whether data need to be examined by experts for a long time after they have analyzed it by the software. But if they’re doing that, they ought to let the riders know. I’m not in great sympathy with Kreuziger, but I think he has the right to know if data that were collected years in the past might come back to haunt him. If riders have to worry for years about some sample they gave, fine, I have no problem with that. But tell them that they have to worry. Don’t just spring it on them.



So you think USPS/Disco was an aberration, that most teams only featured their GC favorite doping?

And why do we continue to get lesser fish caught, DiLuca, and so on, if these are the riders most likely to be clean? Is it just statistics? There are so many more non-contenders, that one of them is more likely to get caught, even though a smaller proportion of them are doping?

If the peloton was 80-85% clean in 2005, and we know almost all of the top ten were doping, that would suggest the non-contenders were more like 90% clean. And if that trend has continued, one would think that by now almost all non-contenders are clean. Yet it seems that it's still the relatively little fish that get caught most of the time.

In 2005, yes, I do think they were an aberration. Well, Kelme and Telekom were also aberrations, so maybe not so much an aberration, as a minority. 80-85% would not even apply to the Tour de France, that number would be yet again smaller, perhaps 60%-70%. Which would put the GP Rennes(or analogous smallish French race) at 98% clean for 2005, which I would think accurate. There was an enormous amount of anger and animosity in 2005-ish around those who had decided to continue and those who backed off. That animosity was the root source of so many of the leaks that occurred.

Your point on little fish is going to be impossible to explain to the satisfaction of the conspiracy minded. But what I would ask that you consider is that in an environment where highly effective doping is receding, but yet to be eliminated, you end up with an odd coexistence of highly talented athletes winning and less talented, yet doped athletes winning. Also, in this part doping/part not environment the risk/reward ratio is very different for the highly talented athlete, as to say, he can still have a highly successful career without doping. Of course, doping would increase that even further, but still, he would be able to earn well clean. Only pure sociopathic greed causes this highly talented rider to choose to "win even more!" than they could clean, and dope. A less talented athlete would not have a similar risk/reward ratio. They would "need" the doping to succeed in any form, and in great quantities, so the risk of being caught increases quite a bit. Just consider it. Not meant as an absolute explanation.

This is a bit of my argument about cleanER cycling. My bar is different than yours, i come from racing in the 90's, where no matter what the talent, you were finishing at the back of the race w/o doping. That set my "standard" and any improvement from this standard was improvement. So, what I observed over the last 15 years are slow, imperfect, improvements. Sometimes(certain events caused) the number of riders doping reduced, sometimes the efficacy of the doping methods reduced(due to lower doses/better testing) even though riders were still doping. Either way, this allowed clean riders to succeed in way that was not previously possible. Even if they were still beaten by dopers, it was 5-6 dopers as opposed to 185 dopers. This is where my annoyingly optimistic tone comes from. I know you guys want an absolute, which I've made the mistake of trying to give/prove. The reality is a slow and painful march from black to grey to less grey, and hopefully to white.

 

[jens_attacks]

Of course, you guys realize the case predates Cookson's presidency, right?

of course you realize that probably around 75 % of the peloton can go down because of irregular blood values if uci wants to, right?

kreuziger, never liked him because of what he said about grandissimo Rujanito. payback is a biiatch. it might not be a conspiracy but everyone knows that dave is shiit scared about tinkov because lately they were going like missiles.
they definitely play with fire. i hope this was their last case for 2014

 

[JV1973]

was it possible to be a mediocre cyclist and get your contract renewed.

silly question blackcat, silly question. and stop extemporising in the third person you twit

in 1996? no
in 2005? yes

 

[jens_attacks]

2005 tour de france ,dirtiest tdf in modern history most likely. big battle with '96. great post, JV

 

[MarkvW]

the timing is what gets me. Right before the tour the UCI decides to "investigate" his passport? bs.

Maybe. You might just be right. But on the other hand, perhaps the UCI has replaced the zombies analyzing passport values with real scientists?

....I can't believe I'm saying that....

 

[blackcat]

why would it raise flags? The BP is so wide when the UCI wants it to be and as narrow as they want!

That it didn't raise flags is not what you were saying before. You blamed the machine.

Clean cycling it sure aint JV. You been selling the sport as 85% clean in 2008 and cleanER since then and that is BS. UCI aint interested in policing doping, just interested in avoiding it a best or using it against teams at worst!

Most fans with half a brain know that the sport did not clean itself up, it just got better with orgainising its programs.

Take Wiggins from grupetto to TdF podium, yeah right. Froome worse than Wiggins to GT Podiums!!! We aint stoopid.

And F##king Millar sh!tting on Floyd while calling Contador clean!

How does Dan Martin beat dopers like Valv or JRod to win a monument FFS!

Hesjedal winning a GT clean. Not possible.

great post

 

[The Hitch]

You guys never cease to brighten my day with your completely bonkers conspiracy theories.

We've had thunderstorms here, which might be hampering some teams with their TdF preparation (not Sky, because they've already done it). I hear Sky have been bombarding the upper atmosphere with gamma rays and alpha particles (and crap TV programmes) causing it to rain. Yes! Guilty! Join the dots, people!

Actually that sounds more like one of Walsh's conspiracy theories than one of the benotti/sniper etc ones (obviously cos you are a troll you use the generic - "you guys" to try and blame even those of us who directly dismiss these theories. )

It sounds like more of a Walsh one because a) it involves Sky doing nothing illegal, b) it involves the world's greatest genius Brailsford thinking outside the box c) its a continuation of the Froome = Jesuse, Brailsford= God narrative he has going, and d) it has Sky finishing their preperation early while all the other non science teams are still doing it.

 

[Poursuivant]

You guys never cease to brighten my day with your completely bonkers conspiracy theories.

We've had thunderstorms here, which might be hampering some teams with their TdF preparation (not Sky, because they've already done it). I hear Sky have been bombarding the upper atmosphere with gamma rays and alpha particles (and crap TV programmes) causing it to rain. Yes! Guilty! Join the dots, people!

They're like the Uruguayan FA, cringetastic.

 

[the sceptic]

They're like the Uruguayan FA, cringetastic.

stop making everything about sky. There are many threads where you can discuss the conspiracy of UCI giving Froome a TUE for horse steroids.

 

[ToreBear]

This sky fixation is really getting tiresome. In a thread about Kreuziger who has no connection to sky, I have to wade through tonnes of nonsense and conspiracy theories to find posts that add anything to the subject.

Please try to keep sky talk in the alloted threads. There are plenty of them.


Now about Kreuziger. Can we really be sure there is something fishy here?

He has got three experts backing him up versus the 9 or so that CADF has got. If he can get 6 more then CAS could have a real big case to handle.

The reasons this took so much time after Kreuzigers reply could be that they had to make doubly sure their science was sound after Kreuzigers experts had made their comments. Or they just had too much else to do.

This could be a false positive that means the science behind the BP needs updating. Or it could be just another doper. But with the amount of judgment involved in interpreting the passport, a false positive by people finding what they want to find based on their theories about what is a normal blood profile is not out of the question.

 

[blackcat]

And in that case, the UCI has its very own Edward Snowden. Very true. Whether their intentions were good or not, who knows?

assange is banging his rhodes scholar lawyer. from crayfish parties in stockholm, to banging his wig inside the ecuadorian embassy, these autodidact coders get all the fun

 

[blackcat]

JV, I thought everyone stopped doping in '06 because it wasn't cool to do drugs anymore?

they were just buried


ask jens

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I also posted in "about the forum" forum, but dissecting a topic like this (timing, affiliations, performance trends) can really be a clinic highlight. Please don't talk about geopolitics, and keep JV's discourse to the JV thread. There is no reason reason so far to bring up sky, except for parallels to JTL, so keep the conspiracy stuff to half dozen sky threads. Please?

__


I want to post about the relative decline of Nibali: maybe he got the same letter last summer? Maybe they liked his explanation, but he toned it down from Giro standards?

 

[JV1973]

great post

No, its really not. I never blamed the machine. I said that retic counts were highly susceptible to mis-calibration an temperature issues. I offered this as a possibility. With regards to Wiggins, I was told by Anne Gripper, who I consider highly credible, that this was the case.

But in the end: I'm the one who released those profiles. Not the UCI. And I did so with complete confidence - and at the request of the above mentioned riders.

The UCI had zero reservations on either profile.

Why?

Because they are clean profiles of clean riders. Argue it all you want. As history shows, the truth eventually comes out. I'm quite comfortable with that.

But, if you prefer the Commonwealth riders conspiracy theory, that's fine. It's all opinion, on both of our parts. Neither of us have vision into absolute truth outsider of our own immediate existence. It's just opinion.

God save the Queen.

 

[The Hitch]

2005 tour de france ,dirtiest tdf in modern history most likely. big battle with '96. great post, JV

Today, my shout -the 2009 edition, took another big step.

 

[JV1973]

they were just buried


ask jens

The ferry trip from Ireland to France is long and rough. And the fish grow large and swift.

 

[the sceptic]

No, its really not. I never blamed the machine. I said that retic counts were highly susceptible to mis-calibration an temperature issues. I offered this as a possibility. With regards to Wiggins, I was told by Anne Gripper, who I consider highly credible, that this was the case.

But in the end: I'm the one who released those profiles. Not the UCI. And I did so with complete confidence - and at the request of the above mentioned riders.

The UCI had zero reservations on either profile.

Why?

Because they are clean profiles of clean riders. Argue it all you want. As history shows, the truth eventually comes out. I'm quite comfortable with that.

But, if you prefer the Commonwealth riders conspiracy theory, that's fine. It's all opinion, on both of our parts. Neither of us have vision into absolute truth outsider of our own immediate existence. It's just opinion.

God save the Queen.

Was it Zorzoli that had zero reservations?

 

[JV1973]

assange is banging his rhodes scholar lawyer. from crayfish parties in stockholm, to banging his wig inside the ecuadorian embassy, these autodidact coders get all the fun

Funny story, I had a meeting in an office overlooking Julian Assange's room at the embassy. He was sitting on the porch, as it was sunny that day in London. Two policemen waiting for him to slip off the porch.

 

[JV1973]

Was it Zorzoli that had zero reservations?

No. Anne Gripper and the computer regression model.

 

[JV1973]

No. Anne Gripper and the computer regression model.

really good name for a band: Anne Gripper and the Computerized Regression Model

 

[The Hitch]

2005 tour de france ,dirtiest tdf in modern history most likely. big battle with '96. great post, JV

Today, my shout -the 2009 edition, took another big step.

 

[Digger]

No, its really not. I never blamed the machine. I said that retic counts were highly susceptible to mis-calibration an temperature issues. I offered this as a possibility. With regards to Wiggins, I was told by Anne Gripper, who I consider highly credible, that this was the case.

But in the end: I'm the one who released those profiles. Not the UCI. And I did so with complete confidence - and at the request of the above mentioned riders.

The UCI had zero reservations on either profile.

Why?

Because they are clean profiles of clean riders. Argue it all you want. As history shows, the truth eventually comes out. I'm quite comfortable with that.

But, if you prefer the Commonwealth riders conspiracy theory, that's fine. It's all opinion, on both of our parts. Neither of us have vision into absolute truth outsider of our own immediate existence. It's just opinion.

God save the Queen.

Yeah, worked well with lance.

 

[Digger]

No, its really not. I never blamed the machine. I said that retic counts were highly susceptible to mis-calibration an temperature issues. I offered this as a possibility. With regards to Wiggins, I was told by Anne Gripper, who I consider highly credible, that this was the case.
But in the end: I'm the one who released those profiles. Not the UCI. And I did so with complete confidence - and at the request of the above mentioned riders.

The UCI had zero reservations on either profile.

Why?

Because they are clean profiles of clean riders. Argue it all you want. As history shows, the truth eventually comes out. I'm quite comfortable with that.

But, if you prefer the Commonwealth riders conspiracy theory, that's fine. It's all opinion, on both of our parts. Neither of us have vision into absolute truth outsider of our own immediate existence. It's just opinion.

God save the Queen.

80 grand worth of equipment!

So when the profile is good, the machine is good, when they are not what you'd expect, it's the machine. Happy days!

 

[murali]

when something wrong happens, the first suspect is always the team thts going to benefit most. in this case, it has to be sky.


for a conspiracy theory, there must be some assumption that looks far-fetched. in this case, no assumption made is actually a far-fetched one. everything said in the allegation is logically plausible.

if the paid employees keep out of the discussion, and we come back to how a passport is being used to target Kreuziger, we could prob hav an enlightened discussion.