Lance amps the big guns

[uspostal]

Sorry for getting off the topic, I'll try to refrain from doing so again in this thread.

 

[Barrus]

Sorry for getting off the topic, I'll try to refrain from doing so again in this thread.

Try to refrain from such talk anywhere on this board.

 

[eleven]

He is smarter than the rest of the accused dopers. Better attorneys, more money, American Icon etc. The bling masters better come up with something better than un-american. That's so weak!

It's exactly that line of thinking that will land him in a world of trouble. While he'll certainly be well represented, there's no reason to believe he'll have better representation than Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds. Thinking your the Smartest Guys in the Room, The Best and The Brightest never ends well.

 

[thehog]

I've read you posting now for some time in this thread about how you know exactly what this case is about: fraud. But now you're saying nobody knows what its about.

I don't care about Lance Armstrong. If he is guilty of doping, fraud, perjury, whatever, he should face justice. Whether he will or not is down to 1) whether he did anything and 2) the vagaries of the legal system.

I find it troubling to see the foaming at the mouth that occurs on this forum. Nobody really knows anything, yet everyone is certain they understand exactly what's happening. It's all just wishful, dogmatic thinking.

If you hate Armstrong, Armstrong will be found guilty and your great fantasy will be realized. If you love Armstrong, he will be vindicated, and your worldview will be maintained. Whatever. None of us really knows what's going on. This is all just masturbation.

I try to stay away from forums because they depress me about humanity. I made a mistake reading this one tonight. What a waste of time.

First of all thank you for your post. Also thank you for watching me from afar. I've been banned for the past two months without a single post. So your obviously been watching for sometime or indeed you may be someone else? None the less I didn't come here to ridicule you or make you look stupid. You're doing a fine job of it yourself.

My point being is that Lance wants this investigation to be about doping. The fans also want it to be about doping. Then they can spout off about 'never tested positive' and jealous ex riders going after Lance. All the lovely rhetoric we've heard over the years that explains away every doping story when it comes to the Lance.

Because the investigation can't be explained away easily by the big man he's stuck. He's cornered and they're closing in. I mean if Federal Investigators who are very busy people make the time to base an entire case about you and the fact that they been ordering various people and companies in front of grand juries then there's something worth looking at. The fact that the case is still going means its got life all of it own.

Don't hit out at me. Hit out at Armstrong. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to buy, import, sell and traffic doping products around the world. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to set up phoney bank accounts to buy drugs. He's the guy who thought it a good idea to avoid paying tax in the US which denies basic services for the very people who he says he represents. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to use his incredible influence and force young riders to inject their bodies with chemicals. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to litter europe with his junk whilst at the same telling them to shut-up. He's the guy who told us his clean time and time again. He's the guy who told us that having cancer changed him whilst the same time telling cancer sufferers to believe him and trust him whilst lying about super human athletic abilities.

Go speak with him. Ask him why he did such things. You have a right to know.

I still affirm Lance has no idea what the case is about. He wants it compartmentalised so he can explain it away with rhetoric but this time not.

Seriously get out there more and ask these questions. You have the right to know.

 

[hektoren]

First of all thank you for your post. Also thank you for watching me from afar. I've been banned for the past two months without a single post. So your obviously been watching for sometime or indeed you may be someone else? None the less I didn't come here to ridicule you or make you look stupid. You're doing a fine job of it yourself.

My point being is that Lance wants this investigation to be about doping. The fans also want it to be about doping. Then they can spout off about 'never tested positive' and jealous ex riders going after Lance. All the lovely rhetoric we've heard over the years that explains away every doping story when it comes to the Lance.

Because the investigation can't be explained away easily by the big man he's stuck. He's cornered and they're closing in. I mean if Federal Investigators who are very busy people make the time to base an entire case about you and the fact that they been ordering various people and companies in front of grand juries then there's something worth looking at. The fact that the case is still going means its got life all of it own.

Don't hit out at me. Hit out at Armstrong. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to buy, import, sell and traffic doping products around the world. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to set up phoney bank accounts to buy drugs. He's the guy who thought it a good idea to avoid paying tax in the US which denies basic services for the very people who he says he represents. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to use his incredible influence and force young riders to inject their bodies with chemicals. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to litter europe with his junk whilst at the same telling them to shut-up. He's the guy who told us his clean time and time again. He's the guy who told us that having cancer changed him whilst the same time telling cancer sufferers to believe him and trust him whilst lying about super human athletic abilities.

Go speak with him. Ask him why he did such things. You have a right to know.

I still affirm Lance has no idea what the case is about. He wants it compartmentalised so he can explain it away with rhetoric but this time not.

Seriously get out there more and ask these questions. You have the right to know.

Somewhere, in the back of my atheistic, curiously scientific brain, a strange word pops out: AMEN! And, on a lower level, mid- to low-gut: Fry the *******! Go Novitzky! Disregard the unavoidable flak from the old-boy network. You're doing a great job, unravelling the sordid details of a fake career.
Lance has, knowingly, perverted a great sport. Some people depend on the sport, gleaning out a subsistence from it. He's spat in the eye of cancer victims. How low can you get?

 

[bobs nob]

Not that you sound partisan or anything, but the Democrat's make the Republican's look like amateurs when it comes to dirty dealings (even though both parties are crooked as snakes).

I think he needs to give Sam Adam Jr a call now that he's finished getting Blago off the hook.

Maybe he can win Lance's case, then afterwards help him broker a deal to sell Pat McQuaid's seat on the UCI?

I think there are some people who can't go a single post without interjecting their partisanship into totally apolitical discussions. The mods seem to have no problem with it (so long as you advocate the conventional wisdom around here which is somewhere between Mao and Marx.)

 

[buckwheat]

I think there are some people who can't go a single post without interjecting their partisanship into totally apolitical discussions. The mods seem to have no problem with it (so long as you advocate the conventional wisdom around here which is somewhere between Mao and Marx.)

Bro, you know that the communist motto is derived from Acts 4:32-37?

So much for the conventional wisdom of Conservative Christianity.

 

[Chuffy]

Strategy 1 - place positive stories in the media.
Exhibit A...

 

[ustabe]

Hincapie has also lawyered up. He can't afford the big guns like Lance.

Hincapie doesn't have as much to lose. Lots of ex-riders who may have doped have started or been associated with successful companies that market cycling products--Motta, Merckx, Moser, Fondriest . . .

 

[rhubroma]

I believe we were sending material,food,planes, tanks you know that sort of thing to England at the 1940 mark. We had the lend lease act with Russia around the same time.providing the same thing. Poor America, We fought 2 major empires at the same time ,did Canada ??? just wondering. There 3 divisions petered out after D-Day unable to keep a steady flow on manpower up. Ok your right we played no part in anything pretaining to WW2. England did try to invade Europe by themselves and believe it flopped. Hey I like the Frenchies, they helped pile on the Brits in the Revolutionary War for us. I'm not entirely sure they helping us or just looking for a reason to pile in England.

Every declining empire creates the myth of its own moral supiriority and martial glory.

Indeed the Americans were, and still are, the largest arms dealers on the planet. However, you forgot to mention that in the 30's our former president's grandfather was also selling arms to Germany, that is Nazi Germany. And in regards to the so called freedom distributted to the millions by America you referred to in another post, there have been just as many millions who live hoplessly under repression (mostly in the third world) under bloody dictatorships which have recieved political, financial and even indirect military and intelligence support by the US government whenever it has been economically expedient to the nation's interests to do so, or of a strategic value to perpetuate its global hegmony.

I would be cautious, therefore, about playing up the US's good intentions as a promotor of aid and conflict-resolution around the globe (when it is often cynically a direct instigator). And if the US did anything then, during WWII, it wasn't so much about fighting an evil, but to promote its own economic growth following the Great Depression (war is usually a great economic stimulus), and to ensure that Stalin wouldn't get all the spoils when it was over (it was just a matter of time when that evil was doomed to be crushed). Indeed the Germans were ultimately broken by Russia. True, the Americans paid a heavy price in ensuring their stake in the claim of the spoils. But so too did the British, the French and many other nations who faught Hitler, above all Russia and mostly on home soil. Evidently, though, those spoils, when weighed against the colossal death toll, still were thought to provide a large enough return to the US government and its generals. And this is primarily why we faught the war. While Japan, which you neglected totally (as it didn't fit into your anti-european analysis), is a completely different story beginning with Pearl Harbor as it had propagandistically been told by the government.

Not to diminish the American contribution to the defeat of Nazi-Fascism, just to put it in more proper light. In any case times have changed.

But I digress....and can only add my second "Amen" to the Hog's caustic analysis. For LA a was no ordinary doper, for which I really have no opinion about in a sporting sense beyond it being just disagreeable to my tastes: yet he maniplated the masses via a hero myth to his own gargantuan financial benifit. That he has made cynical use of the cancer community as a "shield" to deflect attention away from his private persona as a dirty practitioner of his sport and so toward his public persona as a paladin of virtue who raises funds for cancer research. When even his so-called fund-raising organization seems as much about a business for profit as it does in aiding the sick. And that, of all the pros, he has been the most outspoken in his public claims to cleanness (with all the calvanist "hard work" rhetoric, and the annoying "I've never failed a drug test" thrown in), when privately, by force of nature, he has been the most fanatical supporter of the omertà system which has utterly corrupted the sport. But he slipped once, as if too many lies could not go wihout a trace, and allowed the viewing masses to see the private persona beneath the public one: the Simeoni incident.

As for the rest: have a nice day and good luck in your continued patriotism. For what it's worth to your very small world.

 

[Benotti69]

Every declining empire creates the myth of its own moral supiriority and martial glory.

Indeed the Americans were, and still are, the largest arms dealers on the planet. However, you forgot to mention that in the 30's our former president's grandfather was also selling arms to Germany, that is Nazi Germany.

I would be cautious, therefore, about playing up the US's good intentions as a promotor of aid and conflict-resolution around the globe (when it is often a direct instigator). And if the US did anything then, during WWII, it wasn't so much about fighting an evil, but to promote its own economic growth following the Great Depression (war is usually a great economic stimulus), and to ensure that Stalin wouldn't get all the spoils when it was over (it was just a matter of time when that evil was doomed to be crushed). Indeed the Germans were ultimately broken by Russia. True, the Americans paid a heavy price in ensuring their stake in the claim of the spoils. But so too, did the British, the French and many other nations who faught Hitler, above all Russia and mostly on home soil. Evidently, though, those spoils, when wayed against the colossal death toll, still were thought to provide a large enough return to the US government and its generals. And this is primarily why we faught the war. While Japan, which you neglected totally (as it didn't fit into your anti-european analysis), is a completely different story beginning with Pearl Harbor as it had propagandistically been told by the government.

Not to diminish the American contribution to the defeat of Nazi-Fascism, just to put it in more proper light. In any case times have changed.

But I digress....and can only add my second "Amen" to the Hog's caustic analysis. For LA a was no ordinary doper, for which I really have no opinion on in a sporting sense beyond it being just disagreeable to my tastes: yet he maniplated the masses via a hero myth to his own gargantuan financial benifit. That he has made cynical use of the cancer community as a "shield" to deflect attention away from his private persona as a dirty practitioner of his sport and so toward his public persona as a paladin of virtue who raises funds for cancer research. When even his so-called fund-raising organization seems as much about a business for profit as it does in aiding the sick. And that, of all the pros, he has been the most outspoken in his public claims to cleanness (with all the clavanist "hard work" rhetoric, and the annoying "I've never failed a drug test" thrown in), when privately, by force of nature, he has been the most fanatical supporter of the omertà system which has utterly corrupted the sport. But he slipped once, as if too many lies could not go wihout a trace, and allowed the public to see the private persona beneath the public one: the Simeoni incident.

As for the rest: have a nice day and good luck in your continued patriotism. For what it's worth to your very small world.

eloquent. Chapeau.

 

[rhubroma]

eloquent. Chapeau.

I added another bit, in case you were interested. Cheers.

 

[The Valley]

This Mark Fabiani "communications strategist" character is a laiugh:

Quote: (Cyclingnews)
He then repeated a claim already made by Lance Armstrong, calling into question if it is right to spend taxpayers' money on the investigation: "With salmonella causing the recall of 380 million eggs, I'm probably not the only one wondering right now why the FDA is spending its resources looking into international bicycle races that occurred years ago," Fabiani said in an e-mail to Bloomberg.

I guess we'd all like to get rid of the rotten eggs, eh Mark?

Classic PR tactics - when guilty, try to deflect the issue onto something topical, yet completely different. As for the comment about looking into "international bicycle races that occurred years ago," the implication is clearly "hey, it happened a long time ago...so let's forget it."

And this guy is paid to come up with this transparent drivel?

 

[Benotti69]

I added another bit, in case you were interested. Cheers.

yep good add. Amazing how some people believe the drivel their tv's dish out without looking deeper. but then if it's not in a 30 sec sound bite or a tweet their attention span switches off

 

[rhubroma]

yep good add. Amazing how some people believe the drivel their tv's dish out without looking deeper. but then if it's not in a 30 sec sound bite or a tweet their attention span switches off

Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins. Excuse me for another digression.

 

[Benotti69]

Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins. Excuse me for another digression.

Gore Vidal is another who has seen the inside of the machine and written extensively about it. Choamsky et al

Back to cycling.

 

[VeloFidelis]

I added another bit, in case you were interested. Cheers.

An interesting post for a cycling web site. But if you are truly fans of Vidal and Chomsky, and agree that the world readily accepts revisionist history as fact; then surely you recognize, that international media stars who routinely consort with presidents, heads of state, and captains of industry, are not going to be brought down by a lowly civil servant. It is just not how thing happen in that rarified atmosphere.

The new media consultants will begin a campaign of obfuscation and subterfuge that will be absorbed by a willing global fan base that does not want to see an icon as anything else.

The naive ramblings recorded here about dramatic collapses and witness stand confessions, are the stuff of Perry Mason re-runs and about as far from reality as you can get. It will be interesting to watch all the maneuvering from this point on, but unfortunately the dramatic downfall fantasy will not play out like those salivating pundits proclaim.

Do you remember anything about Whitewater? I didn't think so.

 

[buckwheat]

Do you remember anything about Whitewater? I didn't think so.

Please explain it to me.

 

[Greisty]

First of all thank you for your post. Also thank you for watching me from afar. I've been banned for the past two months without a single post. So your obviously been watching for sometime or indeed you may be someone else? None the less I didn't come here to ridicule you or make you look stupid. You're doing a fine job of it yourself.

My point being is that Lance wants this investigation to be about doping. The fans also want it to be about doping. Then they can spout off about 'never tested positive' and jealous ex riders going after Lance. All the lovely rhetoric we've heard over the years that explains away every doping story when it comes to the Lance.

Because the investigation can't be explained away easily by the big man he's stuck. He's cornered and they're closing in. I mean if Federal Investigators who are very busy people make the time to base an entire case about you and the fact that they been ordering various people and companies in front of grand juries then there's something worth looking at. The fact that the case is still going means its got life all of it own.

Don't hit out at me. Hit out at Armstrong. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to buy, import, sell and traffic doping products around the world. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to set up phoney bank accounts to buy drugs. He's the guy who thought it a good idea to avoid paying tax in the US which denies basic services for the very people who he says he represents. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to use his incredible influence and force young riders to inject their bodies with chemicals. He's the guy who thought it would be a good idea to litter europe with his junk whilst at the same telling them to shut-up. He's the guy who told us his clean time and time again. He's the guy who told us that having cancer changed him whilst the same time telling cancer sufferers to believe him and trust him whilst lying about super human athletic abilities.

Go speak with him. Ask him why he did such things. You have a right to know.

I still affirm Lance has no idea what the case is about. He wants it compartmentalised so he can explain it away with rhetoric but this time not.

Seriously get out there more and ask these questions. You have the right to know.

I am asking questions. My questions have to do whether we actually know anything about the content of the investigation. I don't think we know as much as you think we do. We disagree. Therefore I'm stupid. Thanks.

I think I'm going to go for a bike ride now.

 

[rhubroma]

An interesting post for a cycling web site. But if you are truly fans of Vidal and Chomsky, and agree that the world readily accepts revisionist history as fact; then surely you recognize, that international media stars who routinely consort with presidents, heads of state, and captains of industry, are not going to be brought down by a lowly civil servant. It is just not how thing happen in that rarified atmosphere.

The new media consultants will begin a campaign of obfuscation and subterfuge that will be absorbed by a willing global fan base that does not want to see an icon as anything else.

The naive ramblings recorded here about dramatic collapses and witness stand confessions, are the stuff of Perry Mason re-runs and about as far from reality as you can get. It will be interesting to watch all the maneuvering from this point on, but unfortunately the dramatic downfall fantasy will not play out like those salivating pundits proclaim.

Do you remember anything about Whitewater? I didn't think so.

Nope. I was just being objective. For the non-objective this means their definition of so called revisionist history. As for the rest: if the Texan has friends in powerful enough positions and can buy his way out of this, then, as sombody else wrote: chapeau. That we are talking about a "power of persuasion" struggle, though, is without a doubt. And here, unfortunately, money and power have always been a great asset.

 

[velosopher54]

I am an American and I'm pretty embarrassed by what a, ahem, certain American has been posting in this thread.

Not all of us are that myopic, and well, stupid.

As for Hincapie, he'll sell his goods even if/when he confesses to doping. But, if he falls in line behind LA he gets what he deserves, jail time. I don't think GH is that stupid though. He's probably just exploring his options, which is smart.

I had a bit of a chuckle reading that LA hired a PR man. He's getting desperate. And since no one is yet pointing his finger at LA he sure is acting guilty. I mean, if fingers were being pointed he'd be smart to get a lawyer. But a PR man and an acting coach? A desperate man if I ever saw one. And a bit telling concerning the acting coach. Looks like a man planning to tell a lie...

 

[VeloFidelis]

Please explain it to me.

Exactly the point!

 

[thehog]

I am asking questions. My questions have to do whether we actually know anything about the content of the investigation. I don't think we know as much as you think we do. We disagree. Therefore I'm stupid. Thanks.

I think I'm going to go for a bike ride now.

Riding is good. I do a lot of it. Just think if you raced. And you were good at it. Good enough to be professional. So you become a professional. But the only way to maintain the living or take the next step is by a needle. Would that make riding as fun as it now? That's the world these guys gave us. That's the world they maintained and shut out anyone who thought different.

You're right none of know what the investigation is about. Only the feds do. The rest is guess work. Many of us hear things, know people who've heard things, know people in the game who've been asked question and we read the press, join a few dots and make logical conclusions.

What we do know is the UCI and Armstrong keep taking about it if its doping related. Its not. Its about fraud, tax evasion and one I learned on Friday employment law. The bank accounts to move the money, buy the drugs and evade tax is all real. Its serious s--t. Make no mistake about it.

Levi, Hincapie, Armstrong and co. all think its about using dope but expect them all to be lead away in handcuffs by year out.

 

[stephens]

If those three end up in handcuffs by the end of the year, I'll donate $200 to the charity of your choice.

 

[henryg]

If those three end up in handcuffs by the end of the year, I'll donate $200 to the charity of your choice.

Lance's team mates won't be going to jail unless they are stupid enough to lie. They will all get immunity so that they can be compelled to testify. It's only the big fish the Feds are interested in. The owner of Tailwind, Bruyneel and Armstrong, and since Lance is the highest profile of the three he will be the biggest prize for the Feds.