Lance amps the big guns

[eleven]

Lances tweets weren't about the owner - they were about the journalists.

Anyone else miss Sam Abt's informed and educated reporting of the #TdF for the @nytimes? I sure do. 25 July.

Anyone else getting sick and tired of this bull****? http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5271000 10 June.

Not a smart move.

I have no doubt that the journalists don't like being challenged. I have even less doubt that the journalists will be given the leeway to fulfill a vendetta. We're talking about quite possibly the most respected newspaper in the world. They didn't get that reputation by hunting down dead stories to please their journalists.

 

[alanshearer]

I'm always amused that people act like it's unfair for defendants to hire high-priced lawyers. Is it some requirement that you're always supposed to let yourself be outspent 10 to 1 by the government side? I mean, come on, even with OJ's lawyers, no way his lawyers cost him more than the government spent prosecuting him and that same dynamic will exist in this Armstrong case as well.

Has Novitsky ever gotten any dopers of anything other than perjury? If not, seems like the key is just to say nothing.

I agree with you on the lawyer thing, someone completely innocent in this type of situation is in just as much need of a good lawyer than someone that's guilty.

But is it any surprise that the convictions have been largely for perjury? If the doping is not a federal offense, you wouldn't expect an indictment for it. And that doesn't mean the investigation is not legitimate. Say they're investigating A. In order to establish A, you need to show that B took place. But B is embarrasing for the witness, so he or she lies in an effort to cover it up. Witness is then charged with perjury. Witness may then come clean and help show B. Or at a minimum, you convince other witnesses that lying about B is not so good an idea. People seem to think that a perjury conviction is somehow illegitimate or evidence that the prosecution failed. I think perjury is a big deal and should be regularly prosecuted.

Finally, saying nothing might be the best course. Of course, you might have to plead the 5Th in order to do it. And while that may not be admissible in a criminal trial, it means a lot in the court of public opinion. And if the prosecution still thinks your testimony is necessary, they can grant qualified immunity. And then the 5th is no longer an option.

So I think the key is to avoid being called as a witness.

 

[stephens]

How could Novitsky charge him / them with anything related to bribing a private foreign entity? I don't think that's in his jurisdiction.

It's not. But I was talking about the court of public opinion and my view on that is that the allegations of bribing the UCI if proven true, will be more damaging to Lance's reputation with the public than years of doping. "Everyone does it," goes a long way towards maintaining his reputation as a sportsman. But if caught, one is supposed to pay the price, not buy his way out of it.

 

[thehog]

I agree with you on the lawyer thing, someone completely innocent in this type of situation is in just as much need of a good lawyer than someone that's guilty.

But is it any surprise that the convictions have been largely for perjury? If the doping is not a federal offense, you wouldn't expect an indictment for it. And that doesn't mean the investigation is not legitimate. Say they're investigating A. In order to establish A, you need to show that B took place. But B is embarrasing for the witness, so he or she lies in an effort to cover it up. Witness is then charged with perjury. Witness may then come clean and help show B. Or at a minimum, you convince other witnesses that lying about B is not so good an idea. People seem to think that a perjury conviction is somehow illegitimate or evidence that the prosecution failed. I think perjury is a big deal and should be regularly prosecuted.

Finally, saying nothing might be the best course. Of course, you might have to plead the 5Th in order to do it. And while that may not be admissible in a criminal trial, it means a lot in the court of public opinion. And if the prosecution still thinks your testimony is necessary, they can grant qualified immunity. And then the 5th is no longer an option.

So I think the key is to avoid being called as a witness.

And alas the beauty of this case. No one really knows what its about nor what the charges may or may not be. For years Armstrong knew the fight. Did you dope? and now? He's got no idea what to deny. So its come down to vendettas, Floyd inspired cartons of sour milk, waste of tax payers money, eggs, unamericanism and other such cliches. I guess he wish it was the French. They were such an easy target. As attack was always the best form of defense.

I think if we can conclude one thing. Armstrong and his new blue train super lawyer team have no idea what they are fighting.

Such fun to watch. You know?

 

[eleven]

It's not. But I was talking about the court of public opinion and my view on that is that the allegations of bribing the UCI if proven true, will be more damaging to Lance's reputation with the public than years of doping. "Everyone does it," goes a long way towards maintaining his reputation as a sportsman. But if caught, one is supposed to pay the price, not buy his way out of it.

Oh, my bad. I missed that in your post.

But I'm actually not sure how they can get the UCI charge, either. The UCI is outside Novitsky's jurisdiction and I'm not sure they are under any legal obligation to respond to a subpoena. I HOPE they are obligated to do so, but I'm doubtful that's the case.

Without their cooperation, it's hard to prove any bribery. Not impossible, but far more difficult. And without any ability to prove it, why would Novitsky pursue it? He's not paid to win in the court of public opinion.

 

[Neworld]

I think if we can conclude one thing. Armstrong and his new blue train super lawyer team have no idea what they are fighting.

Such fun to watch. You know?

Great post! Just like CNN reporting on nothing.

Sometimes in life apparent complex issues are actually quite simple, but external forces can interfere deliberately making them complicated.

Lets say LA is innocent (hiccup) what could be so purely true and helpful to the Feds than for LA to volunteer his time and availability. LA could spew forth all 'truthful' information in both public and legal arenas under oath. Lance show us uneducated fans and citizens that you are innocent by using the exact language necessary to definitely implicate yourself for the best.

Terminology like, "I LA state I have never doped, never provided PEDS to anyone, never used public money to aid in a doping programme, never forced a colleague to dope..." Now that would be impressive.

Instead he is vague, slanderous and defensively litigious.

NW

 

[Greisty]

And alas the beauty of this case. No one really knows what its about nor what the charges may or may not be. For years Armstrong knew the fight. Did you dope? and now? He's got no idea what to deny. So its come down to vendettas, Floyd inspired cartons of sour milk, waste of tax payers money, eggs, unamericanism and other such cliches. I guess he wish it was the French. They were such an easy target. As attack was always the best form of defense.

I think if we can conclude one thing. Armstrong and his new blue train super lawyer team have no idea what they are fighting.

Such fun to watch. You know?

I've read you posting now for some time in this thread about how you know exactly what this case is about: fraud. But now you're saying nobody knows what its about.

I don't care about Lance Armstrong. If he is guilty of doping, fraud, perjury, whatever, he should face justice. Whether he will or not is down to 1) whether he did anything and 2) the vagaries of the legal system.

I find it troubling to see the foaming at the mouth that occurs on this forum. Nobody really knows anything, yet everyone is certain they understand exactly what's happening. It's all just wishful, dogmatic thinking.

If you hate Armstrong, Armstrong will be found guilty and your great fantasy will be realized. If you love Armstrong, he will be vindicated, and your worldview will be maintained. Whatever. None of us really knows what's going on. This is all just masturbation.

I try to stay away from forums because they depress me about humanity. I made a mistake reading this one tonight. What a waste of time.

 

[eleven]

I've read you posting now for some time in this thread about how you know exactly what this case is about: fraud. But now you're saying nobody knows what its about.

If you read enough of Hog's posts, you'll learn to expect nothing else.

If you hate Armstrong, Armstrong will be found guilty and your great fantasy will be realized. If you love Armstrong, he will be vindicated, and your worldview will be maintained.

Precisely. and if one attempts to either (A) speak to the stupidity of those that love him or especially (B) Speak to the stupidity and/or misguided nature of those who hate him, the response is a vile attack.

The forum has become a din of hate in that regard, despite the myriad other interesting and thoughtful discussion that often happen on Non-Armstrong related topics.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I've read you posting now for some time in this bla bla bla

So before you let us know how much smarter you are than the majority here, you tell us that you have been reading a certain individuals posts "for some time" in a thread which has only existed for less that 24 hours.
OK so you haven't learned to tell time yet, but otherwise you are real real smart.
Thanks for checking in. Have you ever posted under the name Speedway?

 

[flicker]

Lance will be fine. He has faced tougher battles with cancer and Le Tour. He is connected no prob. Just going to take some time and money.
He is smarter than the rest of the accused dopers. Better attorneys, more money, American Icon etc. The bling masters better come up with something better than un-american. That's so weak!

 

[flicker]

Never ever ever give up on the boss, he rules.

 

[Mont Ventoux]

Running out of meds can be so depressing...

I find it troubling to see the foaming at the mouth that occurs on this forum. Nobody really knows anything, yet everyone is certain they understand exactly what's happening. It's all just wishful, dogmatic thinking.

If you hate Armstrong, Armstrong will be found guilty and your great fantasy will be realized. If you love Armstrong, he will be vindicated, and your worldview will be maintained. Whatever. None of us really knows what's going on. This is all just masturbation.

I try to stay away from forums because they depress me about humanity. I made a mistake reading this one tonight. What a waste of time.

Just when I was enjoying the uniballer roasting along comes this....
Sad really how the free fall of a fanboy's hero can lead to such a calamity.
Dr. Ruth said that masturbation was just fine, and healthy.

Pharmastrong is probably asking himself the same thing as our sad poster,
" maybe I should taken the blue pill..."

This should be quite the ride, to think that this egotistical knob could 've been retired and bangin' hookers by the truck load and off the pro-cycling radar...but NO, he had to make is come back.
What's the sound of a uniball clanging??

 

[Polish]

It appears it is the FDA that is starting to worry.

Bit off a bit more than they can chew.

Getting themselves a stomach ache it seems.

Not long until they have a major case of The Squirts

 

[Berzin]

If Armstrong were doing this for global cancer awareness, he wouldn't have bailed out on the season right after the Tour ended two years in a row.

He could have done the late-season races like Lombardy and the World Championships if this indeed was his true intention.

What bigger stage for his awareness campaign than the Worlds?

But he didn't. I will say this-his retirement will be a welcome respite from that idiot Chris Carmichael making cryptic comments about Armstrong's form being better than at any stage during his Tour reign without giving any specifics whatsoever.

Hey Chris, do also not know Lances' VO2 max?

 

[Mont Ventoux]

The evil that men do lives after them....

If it were about Global Cancer Awareness, then he'd be blissfully happy with his life so far, and wouldn't be hiring spin doctors to hypnotize us all.

Grandpappy told me, if it smells like a turd, and smears when stepped on like a turd, then son, it's a turd.

Who the hell does he think he is, Teflon Lance???

 

[rhubroma]

Lance will be fine. He has faced tougher battles with cancer and Le Tour. He is connected no prob. Just going to take some time and money.
He is smarter than the rest of the accused dopers. Better attorneys, more money, American Icon etc. The bling masters better come up with something better than un-american. That's so weak!

I suppose you have some scientific criteria to assess Mr. Armstrong's superior intelligence? Or is that something which can be bought too?

Certainly to be critical beyond callng those who are in disent "un-american" and "communists", to have some sense of reality (beyond the propaganda), to be expossed to a wide range of ideological positions, in a broader global sense, which causes a world-view that is decidedly more nuanced and objective than the merely patriotic and rhetorical: "this great nation" and "you are either with us of against us"...true, these are indeed un-american qualities.

PS. I forgot to scorn apple pie.

 

[Benotti69]

It appears it is the FDA that is starting to worry.

Bit off a bit more than they can chew.

Getting themselves a stomach ache it seems.

Not long until they have a major case of The Squirts

It appears it is the LA and his mob that is starting to really worry.

Injected a bit more than they can pee.

Getting themselves all kinds of aches it seems.

Not long until they have a major case of The Squirts

now didn't that 'polish' up well. free of charge

 

[uspostal]

If Armstrong were doing this for global cancer awareness, he wouldn't have bailed out on the season right after the Tour ended two years in a row.

He could have done the late-season races like Lombardy and the World Championships if this indeed was his true intention.

What bigger stage for his awareness campaign than the Worlds?

But he didn't. I will say this-his retirement will be a welcome respite from that idiot Chris Carmichael making cryptic comments about Armstrong's form being better than at any stage during his Tour reign without giving any specifics whatsoever.

Hey Chris, do also not know Lances' VO2 max?

Not sure where this comes from, in America people have heard of the TDF. They don't know much about any other bike race in the world. The same for soccer here, we were all pumped about the world cup boom we're out and soccer goes back to being a sport nobody thinks about until the next world cup. If bike racing was ever set up like the Olympics where its country against country it might catch on more here.

 

[rhubroma]

Not sure where this comes from, in America people have heard of the TDF. They don't know much about any other bike race in the world. The same for soccer here, we were all pumped about the world cup boom we're out and soccer goes back to being a sport nobody thinks about until the next world cup. If bike racing was ever set up like the Olympics where its country against country it might catch on more here.

For those following cycling within the international, not exclusively American, community (who are in the vast majority), after the Tour the Worlds is the biggest venue there is. Consequently, as Berzin has here suggested, if promoting cancer awareness globally were the primary objective of his return, then the Texan would do well to consider prolonging his season. In the name of all those sickly for whom he has claimed to support via his second career racing. Perhaps even making an appearance at the Worlds in October.

Or was it only about promoting a cause limited to Americans suffering with cancer? Why then race any event not known to the Americans right?

The bothersome aspect of your view above, is that it expresses, to a marked degree, that so typically myopic and auto-referential perspective that we only get out of Americana. As if if such and such isn't popular in the States, then we don't bother with it. If people living between the North-Atlantic and North-Pacific coasts would more frequently be mindful of the fact that the world is a vast and varriagated place, then they would themselves be held in greater esteam than what one often runs into while venturing abroad. That they seem to be unaware of this fact makes them only appear more provincial to those within the international community, who, yes indeed, are constantly monitoring what is happening in the land of the Stars and Stipes. Which is a question of worldliness and being prepared to engage in all the issues that lie beyond one's own yard.

PS. Right let's just remake the sport into something to our image and own liking. Nevermind a century of international tradition.

 

[uspostal]

For those following cycling within the international, not exclusively American, community (who are in the vast majority), after the Tour the Worlds is the biggest venue there is. Consequently, as Berzin has here suggested, if promoting cancer awareness globally were the primary objective of his return, then the Texan would do well to consider prolonging his season. In the name of all those sickly for whom he has claimed to support via his second career racing. Perhaps even making an appearance at the Worlds in October.

Or was it only about promoting a cause limited to Americans suffering with cancer? Why then race any event not known to the Americans right?

The bothersome aspect of your view above, is that it expresses, to a marked degree, that so typically myopic and auto-referential perspective that we only get out of Americana. As if if such and such isn't popular in the States, then we don't bother with it. If people living between the North-Atlantic and North-Pacific coasts would more frequently be mindful of the fact that the world is a vast and varriagated place, then they would themselves be held in greater esteam than what one often runs into while venturing abroad. That they seem to be unaware of this fact makes them only appear more provincial to those within the international community, who, yes indeed, are constantly monitoring what is happening in the land of the Stars and Stipes. Which is a question of worldliness and being prepared to engage in all the issues that lie beyond one's own yard.

PS. Right let's just remake the sport into something to our image and own liking. Nevermind a century of international tradition.

I guess my pointed view comes from the fact evrytime somebody gets into a ****ing match in Europe to see who's is bigger, they call the US to help. I guess that little problem called WW1 and WW2 was just Europes way of inviting us to a party. I could quote you the number of US dead, for the 2 wars but I know it would be of no matter to you. German would be the langue of choice now if not for us. Just remember 2 wars later, countless numbers of Americans later, a lot of people are free because of the US. So if my view is slanted a little that could be the reason why.

LA has already had a global cancer awarness meeting August 24-26 2009 with 500 delagates from over 65 countries in Dublin Ireland. Maybethats why he's not going all around the world this year. With everything thats going on maybe he has decided to stay at home and try to rally support for cancer and himself at the same time. Maybe if his TDF performance was better he would have raced more this year.

Maybe I sould have said that in America the bike racing fan base is small. So LA being an American should try to rally support at home 1st before taking the cancer cause world wide in light of all the recent Floyd problems. As I said earlier he can rally support for cancer and at the same time rally support for himself.

" International tradition" as in biking tradition, is that with or without PED. According to some here tradition went out with the use of PED so the tradition has been gone for more than 20 yrs

 

[Benotti69]

I guess my pointed view comes from the fact evrytime somebody gets into a ****ing match in Europe to see who's is bigger, they call the US to help. I guess that little problem called WW1 and WW2 was just Europes way of inviting us to a party. I could quote you the number of US dead, for the 2 wars but I know it would be of no matter to you. German would be the langue of choice now if not for us. Just remember 2 wars later, countless numbers of Americans later, a lot of people are free because of the US. So if my view is slanted a little that could be the reason why.

and if it wasn't for the french you'd all be second hand brits and part of the commonwealth with the queen as your monarch.

LA has already had a global cancer awarness meeting August 24-26 2009 with 500 delagates from over 65 countries in Dublin Ireland. Maybethats why he's not going all around the world this year. With everything thats going on maybe he has decided to stay at home and try to rally support for cancer and himself at the same time. Maybe if his TDF performance was better he would have raced more this year.

maybe if uci were doing the testing his performance would have been better

Maybe I sould have said that in America the bike racing fan base is small. So LA being an American should try to rally support at home 1st before taking the cancer cause world wide in light of all the recent Floyd problems. As I said earlier he can rally support for cancer and at the same time rally support for himself.

and maybe winning bike races aroud the world an making the american media report cycling as an interational global year long sport would increase its fanbase and LAs image to more americans

" International tradition" as in biking tradition, is that with or without PED. According to some here tradition went out with the use of PED so the tradition has been gone for more than 20 yrs

PED is probably as traditional to home base sports in usa as it is around the world. y'all no better or no worse at it

 

[Neworld]

Not sure where this comes from, in America people have heard of the TDF. They don't know much about any other bike race in the world. .

Very myopic of you. Update, Cancer affect more than just Americans.

Hasn't Lance told you there is a lot of money to be made from 'Cancer Awareness' all around the world. The only trouble is only some global cycling venues are NOT willing to pay enough to seduce LA to ride. Very sad.

I see that Rhubroma beat me to this one, sorry for the redundancy.

NW

 

[uspostal]

Very myopic of you. Update, Cancer affect more than just Americans.

Hasn't Lance told you there is a lot of money to be made from 'Cancer Awareness' all around the world. The only trouble is only some global cycling venues are willing to pay enough to seduce LA to ride. Very sad.

NW

Hey I'm not commited to any rider, I'm a free agent fan and I'll cheer for the guy who pays me the most, sounds like the law of supply and demand.

 

[Neworld]

I guess my pointed view comes from the fact evrytime somebody gets into a ****ing match in Europe to see who's is bigger, they call the US to help. I guess that little problem called WW1 and WW2 was just Europes way of inviting us to a party. I could quote you the number of US dead, for the 2 wars but I know it would be of no matter to you. German would be the langue of choice now if not for us. Just remember 2 wars later, countless numbers of Americans later, a lot of people are free because of the US.

Wow you are uneducated and this 'war' reference is way off topic.

Firstly, if the leader of Germany around the time of WWII wasn't stupidly invading Russia, Africa, heck all over the world and just concentrated on keeping most of Europe and taking England then the USA probably wouldn't have even attempted to invade Europe. They were busy, and poor, enough just dealing with Japan.

Secondly, to think that the USA defeated the Nazi's in isolation with the help of England, France, indirectly Russia, Canada, Australia, NZ ... is insulting and very ignorant.

Stick to posting irrational cycling logic.

NW

 

[uspostal]

Wow you are uneducated and this 'war' reference is way off topic.

Firstly, if the leader of Germany around the time of WWII wasn't stupidly invading Russia, Africa, heck all over the world and just concentrated on keeping most of Europe and taking England then the USA probably wouldn't have even attempted to invade Europe. They were busy, and poor, enough just dealing with Japan.

Secondly, to think that the USA defeated the Nazi's in isolation with the help of England, France, indirectly Russia, Canada, Australia, NZ ... is insulting and very ignorant.

Stick to posting irrational cycling logic.

NW

I believe we were sending material,food,planes, tanks you know that sort of thing to England at the 1940 mark. We had the lend lease act with Russia around the same time.providing the same thing. Poor America, We fought 2 major empires at the same time ,did Canada ??? just wondering. There 3 divisions petered out after D-Day unable to keep a steady flow on manpower up. Ok your right we played no part in anything pretaining to WW2. England did try to invade Europe by themselves and believe it flopped. Hey I like the Frenchies, they helped pile on the Brits in the Revolutionary War for us. I'm not entirely sure they helping us or just looking for a reason to pile in England.