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lance armstrong, case closed.

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Mar 18, 2009
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cycelicious, pointing out some of the doubts that surround Armstrong and his support staff - information that is well documented and in the public domain, even down to the nicknames of those involved - is a long, long way from racism. I happen to dislike Armstrong (whose fans do him absolutely no favours) for a variety of reasons based on personal knowledge and the aforementioned information but to extrapolate from this a hatred of all things American is at best a stretch and at worst ridiculous. I dislike Armstrong, as do others here, for the way he upholds Omerta. Hatred of 'the French' is xenophobic and racist.

grimpeur, let's not forget that, were it not for the French, the USA would still be a colony of the UK ;) And, having lived in France and had my local narrow lanes resurfaced several times because the Tour and other local races were using them, I agree with the rest of your post.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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fitzyboy said:
WOW, is it me or are there a lot of conspiracists these days? :confused: Get over it people, this is cycling and I doubt that the nation of Khazikstan, or the leaders of Saxobank are betting their entire fortunes on the jerseys of a bunch of guys in tights!

Yeah, guys doped in the past, but even if everyone doped, LANCE BLEW THEM AWAY!!! Don't tell me he was doping, yet all the contenders minutes behind him didn't have as good of, or any drugs too! Now, cycling is the most heavily tested sport, bar none.

Being in the military and subjected to regular testing myself, there is nothing that can be done short of substituting urine, to mask ones results in the same day without it being evident in the sample. I imagine the tester witnessed the urine "leaving the body and entering the sample container" so I doubt he was able to slip any shelved urine in there. Otherwise, all you haters and wackos are drawing at straws to further discredit this guy.

And, of course he was over protective and aggressive in his defense, everyone east of the Atlantic wants him to be guilty and have barraged him with accusations for as long as he has been winning. As has been said already time and time again, if he is doping... PROVE IT, INDISPUTABLY!!! Otherwise, shut it and ride a bike!

:rolleyes: connard
 
Apr 16, 2009
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wiggintona said:
Cycleman07 got it right.... Lance has NEVER had a positive doping test. All of the BS about what people think and their deranged opinions to the contrary just don't carry any weight. From being a youngster Lance showed that he had the physical and mental capacity to succeed. During his Tour years he crushed people in the Mountains and TT's, allowed other riders to take honors(Pantani, Basso, etc.) because had respect for them as professionals and he believed in sharing the wealth and all he gets in return from the Lance Haters is the constant tune of "I know he doped" , get over it, judge Lance on his performances and quit whining!

You must believe in the tooth fairy as well. Lance had 6 positives for EPO use in the 1999 TDF. He had two of the ten fastest ascents of Alpe d'Huez, one of which (2001) he put pumped out 450 watts, right up there with Pantani, Ullrich, Riis and faster than Landis (all dopers).
 
Apr 25, 2009
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So far Armstrong has had three run-ins with the anti-doping authorities. Each case was swept under the carpet (twice by the abominable French themselves).
Pantani was sanctioned for doping 3 times during his career and was additionally caught twice after his death (post mortem examination and Operación Puerto). Still, despite his shameless arrogance and selfishness towards teammates, he's considered a great cycling hero, dearly remembered by his fans. They built him a monument, made a movie about him and Giro stages are dedicated to him.
Compare it to Ulrich's situation. First, a one year suspension for use of recreational drugs out of season, then another one as a result of the Operación Puerto. Threatened with lawsuits, he was the only cyclist involved in the affair who was stripped by the UCI of all the points accumulated during that season, while others were allowed to keep them, even from the same races. That's cycling justice.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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on the fence

Hot and cold feelings about the whole ordeal. On the one hand, I feel the French are so anti-Lance/anti-American teams that they will do anything to keep one from winning again. I agree with the comment that they should re-direct their energies into junior development; it was a witch-hunt from the start.
On the other hand, I liked the diversity of emerging talent during the past few years without Lance. He was my son's idol and reason for getting into cycling, but I think he's proved his point on the Pro-Tour. I don't really see his form as being anywhere near what it takes to win an 8th this year.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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udgrad, just out of interest, what makes you believe that:
a) the French hate all American teams - Equipe has been full of praise for Cavendish who rides for, um, an American team. Always think the statement about the French hating the Americans for winning 'their' race says more about an American mentality than a French one - the French like a Grand Champion and embraced Armstrong fully until the revelations about Ferrari and the Actovegin doping scandal.
b) the French don't invest in junior development? The sad fact is, most young French kids would rather play football or basketball. But there are junior development teams all over the country - I know Luc Leblanc runs one that a friend's son was on. I would say there were more young French riders in the peloton than young Americans, and the same is true on the track. Individual stars may shine brighter but, considering the difference in populations, the French are hardly outnumbered by young American hopes, are they?

Would be interested to hear the American viewpoint without the xenophobic herd mentality.

Anyway, you're right, it's beautiful here on the south coast and I have a 2 year old who can't wait to ride his new bike round the park - enjoy your ride and L-B-L tomorrow
 
Apr 25, 2009
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one-side rules

It's one thing to be a stickler for the rules when you follow them. But as another has pointed out:

"...obviously they [AFLD] blabbed because it was lance..."

Leaking this type of information is against the rules. AFLD and WADA need to get their act together so that Landis and others that are caught are caught fairly and without tainting the regulatory agencies involved. The fact that the biggest cycling events are controlled by organizations that consistently undermine their own credibility (ASO and AFLD), is killing cycling for the fans. Unless of course most of us are into it *because of* rather than *despite* the soap opera aspects.

Madison, USA
 
Apr 12, 2009
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bianchigirl said:
udgrad, just out of interest, what makes you believe that:
a) the French hate all American teams - Equipe has been full of praise for Cavendish who rides for, um, an American team. Always think the statement about the French hating the Americans for winning 'their' race says more about an American mentality than a French one - the French like a Grand Champion and embraced Armstrong fully until the revelations about Ferrari and the Actovegin doping scandal.
b) the French don't invest in junior development? The sad fact is, most young French kids would rather play football or basketball. But there are junior development teams all over the country - I know Luc Leblanc runs one that a friend's son was on. I would say there were more young French riders in the peloton than young Americans, and the same is true on the track. Individual stars may shine brighter but, considering the difference in populations, the French are hardly outnumbered by young American hopes, are they?

Would be interested to hear the American viewpoint without the xenophobic herd mentality.

Anyway, you're right, it's beautiful here on the south coast and I have a 2 year old who can't wait to ride his new bike round the park - enjoy your ride and L-B-L tomorrow

I still don't feel like Columbia is an american team, I mean the only americans are hincapie, and craig lewis so it's more like an international team, as for the rest i agree, but the thing is the French aren't developing winners they have a wealth of young riders but their best rider is chavanel, while the americans have alot of winners.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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hmmmm--no Hair test yet??!?!?

"The analysis of the urine and blood samples from Mr. Lance Armstrong did not reveal any abnormality. His hair sample has not been tested," the AFLD said.

Wonder why the hair hasn't been tested. I thought they'd run all three tests, and I figured you can't do anything to avoid being caught on a hair test, so I thought he was clean. But now, you gotta wonder what's gonna happen when they test the hair. And when they'll do so (eve of Tour?). And why they're waiting.

Something tells me the case is not closed. Unless he was clean. Which I would think more likely than not, personally, given the risk:reward calculus at this point in his career.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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madnorski, I'd dearly love the proof that the AFLD leaked this - I seem to recall Armstrong twittered about the test as soon as it occured so the fact that the test had happened was in the public domain. News of the AFLD investigation was first broadcast on Monaco radio. AFLD have produced a total of 2 short press releases exercising admirable restraint in the face of the Armstrong PR onslaught.

Interestingly, you cite the Landis case - it's because of his attacks on the UCI/WADA/USADA that doping agencies now have the right to respond to allegations, which they didn't before. The minute Armstrong tweeted about the AFLD test, he gave them the right to respond as freely as they wished. The fact that they haven't has shown admirable restraint.

Still, onwards to the Tour and test after test after test after test, all of them perfectly valid. I'm sure the AFLD would take a series of positives/anomalies over a disputed testing violation anyway - wonder what new test they'll be using this year? One for autologous blood doping perhaps?
 
Mar 12, 2009
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bianchigirl said:
madnorski, I'd dearly love the proof that the AFLD leaked this - I seem to recall Armstrong twittered about the test as soon as it occured so the fact that the test had happened was in the public domain. News of the AFLD investigation was first broadcast on Monaco radio. AFLD have produced a total of 2 short press releases exercising admirable restraint in the face of the Armstrong PR onslaught.

Interestingly, you cite the Landis case - it's because of his attacks on the UCI/WADA/USADA that doping agencies now have the right to respond to allegations, which they didn't before. The minute Armstrong tweeted about the AFLD test, he gave them the right to respond as freely as they wished. The fact that they haven't has shown admirable restraint.

Still, onwards to the Tour and test after test after test after test, all of them perfectly valid. I'm sure the AFLD would take a series of positives/anomalies over a disputed testing violation anyway - wonder what new test they'll be using this year? One for autologous blood doping perhaps?

oh, get over yourself bianchigirl. Your hatred towards LA/JB/anyone involved is tiring to read.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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They'll probably never catch Lance with any drugs that are banned, they could catch him with dumped medical waste (like in 2000.)

There are 02 carriers and such not tested for, and HGH testing is a joke. The only thing they could ever get him on is a high hematocrit or total blood volume shift.

The only way to stop him would be total blood volume measuring and comparisons. LeMond knows this. The thing with Michele Ferrari is he is always way ahead of the game, and Julian DeVriese (Lance's 2000 mechanic) told this to LeMond and his son after Dr. Ferrari's camp.

But you cant replace red cell boosting, its fundamental.
 
Apr 25, 2009
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Lance (a poem)

Lance
by cjmiller

Winning is a crime
But only if you're Lance
The Frenchman holds the cup
And he pulls down his pants

The rider takes a leak
And L'Equipe takes one too
The rider's in a vile
L'Equipe's is in the news

He's never been found dirty
It matters none the same
Clean **** is always dirty
If Armstrong is your name
 
Apr 25, 2009
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It seems that the anti - Lance brigade are fond of cryptic put downs and conspiracy theories. Lance has never tested positive under recognised scientific testing.

There's inconclusive evidence that may suggest that he had a type of EPO in his bloodstream in 1999. Since then he 's been tested thousands of times and there's been no conclusive evidence at all. Surely that's enough?

I spoke to a former editor of The Sunday Times and he seemed pretty sure that Lance had a 'dodgy' past and that there was no smoke without fire and that a lot of the European media were unconvinced with Armstrong's cleanliness. What I said to him was that the media are often guilty of believing their own hype and that they should put up and shut up until they had something conclusive. I doesn't surprise me that Kimmidge and his sour grapes have jumped on the bandwagon.

Being English and proud, my antennae are up when I can sniff subterfuge from our friends across the English Channel. However, I can detect very little Lance-baiting at all from our French cousins - it seems that most Frenchmen and women are genuine fans of cycling and fans of Armstrong, I suspect that Armstrong's cloud of doubt is due more to European media speculation and jealousy from those in positions of French political influence than anything else. Indeed I think his tests prove this point.

The French/Euro media and powers that be don't like the fact that an English speaking, mouthy, seemingly aggressive Yank has dominated over all-comers.

If I were in Lance's shoes and a French guy turned up with dubious credentials wanting a variety of samples, I'm sure I would be less accomodating than Armstrong - perhaps resulting in expletives and a bit of physicality! And Lance is from Texas!

In response to the guy that suggested that there's more to Cycling than the Tour de France - you have a small point. The TDF is undoubtedly the pinnacle.

To paraphrase Lance Armstrong, 'Case closed' and 'Onwards'.
 
bianchigirl said:
Always think the statement about the French hating the Americans for winning 'their' race says more about an American mentality than a French one - the French like a Grand Champion and embraced Armstrong fully until the revelations about Ferrari and the Actovegin doping scandal.

Would be interested to hear the American viewpoint without the xenophobic herd mentality.

Have to agree with you for the most part, but this is the kind of statement we can do without as you're still generalizing based on nationality.
bianchigirl said:
Always think the statement about the French hating the Americans for winning 'their' race says more about an American mentality than a French one
The French seemed to really love Lance while he was winning the tour. It wasn't until afterward when the 1999 Tdf sample stuff came out that things seemed to change. And even that I don't really know for sure. For all I know the French people might love Lance. Unfortunately what most hear in the States is just when L'Equipe or somebody else prints. Personally, I really hate the France-US animosity that's seemed to develop over the last few years.

Lance and I went to school together and raced together on the track team and I have to admit that the reason I'm not a fan of his is because he was a jerk back then and I don't think he ever said one kind word to me. Now, I will readily admit that was a long time ago and he could have changed but that's what I have to go on.
 
gingerwallaceafro said:
It seems that the anti - Lance brigade are fond of cryptic put downs and conspiracy theories. Lance has never tested positive under recognised scientific testing.

There's inconclusive evidence that may suggest that he had a type of EPO in his bloodstream in 1999. Since then he 's been tested thousands of times and there's been no conclusive evidence at all. Surely that's enough?

I spoke to a former editor of The Sunday Times and he seemed pretty sure that Lance had a 'dodgy' past and that there was no smoke without fire and that a lot of the European media were unconvinced with Armstrong's cleanliness. What I said to him was that the media are often guilty of believing their own hype and that they should put up and shut up until they had something conclusive. I doesn't surprise me that Kimmidge and his sour grapes have jumped on the bandwagon.

Being English and proud, my antennae are up when I can sniff subterfuge from our friends across the English Channel. However, I can detect very little Lance-baiting at all from our French cousins - it seems that most Frenchmen and women are genuine fans of cycling and fans of Armstrong, I suspect that Armstrong's cloud of doubt is due more to European media speculation and jealousy from those in positions of French political influence than anything else. Indeed I think his tests prove this point.

The French/Euro media and powers that be don't like the fact that an English speaking, mouthy, seemingly aggressive Yank has dominated over all-comers.

If I were in Lance's shoes and a French guy turned up with dubious credentials wanting a variety of samples, I'm sure I would be less accomodating than Armstrong - perhaps resulting in expletives and a bit of physicality! And Lance is from Texas!

In response to the guy that suggested that there's more to Cycling than the Tour de France - you have a small point. The TDF is undoubtedly the pinnacle.

To paraphrase Lance Armstrong, 'Case closed' and 'Onwards'.
You must be kidding right?. I am excited about his comeback but come on, I am not blind. I know he is a great athlete and that he is doing a lot of good with his LIVESTRONG campaign, but come on. There is infinite amount of information about him and his team doping. Try to read the other threads in this Forum. I am not French so don't bother writing me a note about the French.
Thanks.
 
picard-headesk.jpg
 
bianchigirl said:
ginger, did you read the Ashenden interview? You may find it interesting reading.

It is useless to exhort some people to investigate the facts. Their minds are made up. Their beliefs are a product of a religious-like faith instead of a rational conclusion. Facts will be avoided, ignored ,or flat out denied.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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jay, fair comment, would have been better had I typed 'the French' 'the Americans' to suggest that I was generalising - however, I would have thought there was a world of difference between suggesting that many Americans have a 'winners' mentality and some of the racist nonsense spewed forth about 'the French'.

Peloton, I have no hatred for Bruyneel or Armstrong but I do prefer the truth to spin.

Bro, agreed.

Anyway, case closed - onwards and upwards - can't wait for Hope to ride again
 
Mar 31, 2009
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www.sootypark.com
franciep10, you picked it

franciep10 said:
Let's not forget Tour of Romandie a great giro warm up and it was a good race last year, as for LBL im picking either Valverde or Schleck one of them could do it.

franciep10, you picked it, albeit with your 2nd choice, well done nonetheless

Now give us Romandie and the Giro!