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Lance v. Lemond - Lemond comes clean?

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Dr. Maserati

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blutto said:
Just throwing another log on the fire...the following is from an interview gave a while ago...
------------------------------------------------------------
Greg LeMond: In the 80s when I was racing we did VO2 Max testing, but it was to see the physical fitness. My first VO2 Max test was up in Squaw Valley on a treadmill and I had a 79 VO2 Max non-specific sport. But once I actually really started doing VO2 Max testing on a consistent basis in '89... now you know it depends upon the level of fitness and training...I was on average about 6.2 to 6.4 liters of Oxygen, which translated to my racing weight would be 92, 93, 94 VO2 Max. I think only cross-country skier Bjørn Dæhlie [Generally considered the greatest Nordic skier of all time, 1992 Olympic Gold Medalist 15 km, 50 km, 4 x 10 km relay cross country skiing], had those same numbers. So I think I had one of, if not the highest

----------------------------------------------------------
...what is interesting here is the huge jump in VO2 Max...and yes Greg does try to explain that away with an exercise specificity argument similar to ideas related to Lance's increased efficiency tests...and frankly neither claim holds much water ( in fact the Lance tests produced quite a battle among academics that would lead to the claims being either withdrawn or highly modified)....what is also interesting is the date of that second series of tests...1989...coincidence?...maybe?...but these kinds of increases in metabolic efficiency are pretty special are they not?...from real great to bestest ever!!!!...I've seen this story before somewhere...

Cheers

Blutto
Actually whats really interesting is you didn't provide a link to the piece and that you missed out this bit:
My wattage, relative to VO2 Max...a VO2 Max of 92 or 93 in a fully recovered way...I think I was capable of producing 450 to 460 watts. The truth is, even at the Tour de France, my Tour de France climb times up l'Alpe d'Huez yielded a wattage of around 380 and 390.
Link to the article ishere.
You're welcome.
 
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blutto said:
Just throwing another log on the fire...the following is from an interview gave a while ago...
------------------------------------------------------------
Greg LeMond: In the 80s when I was racing we did VO2 Max testing, but it was to see the physical fitness. My first VO2 Max test was up in Squaw Valley on a treadmill and I had a 79 VO2 Max non-specific sport. But once I actually really started doing VO2 Max testing on a consistent basis in '89... now you know it depends upon the level of fitness and training...I was on average about 6.2 to 6.4 liters of Oxygen, which translated to my racing weight would be 92, 93, 94 VO2 Max. I think only cross-country skier Bjørn Dæhlie [Generally considered the greatest Nordic skier of all time, 1992 Olympic Gold Medalist 15 km, 50 km, 4 x 10 km relay cross country skiing], had those same numbers. So I think I had one of, if not the highest

----------------------------------------------------------
...what is interesting here is the huge jump in VO2 Max...and yes Greg does try to explain that away with an exercise specificity argument similar to ideas related to Lance's increased efficiency tests...and frankly neither claim holds much water ( in fact the Lance tests produced quite a battle among academics that would lead to the claims being either withdrawn or highly modified)....what is also interesting is the date of that second series of tests...1989...coincidence?...maybe?...but these kinds of increases in metabolic efficiency are pretty special are they not?...from real great to bestest ever!!!!...I've seen this story before somewhere...

Cheers

Blutto

No what's interesting here is that you don't know that testing is modality specific. Lemond was a highly trained bike racer, not a highly trained treadmill user. That's why he says 'non-specific sport'. It is amazing to have a vo2max that high in a sport for which you don't even train. The increase is not a longitudinal increase (change over time) but a modality related increase (he got on a bike). To put it a different way: Greg was a bike rider. For a bike rider, he was an incredible runner. But he was even better as a bike rider.

Does this make him clean? No more than anything else. But it's not a analogous to the Coyle/Armstrong story.
 
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-

it's naive to assume lemond, or any high performance athlete, did not do everything possible to maximize results. this includes training, diet, or "supplements". eventually these "supplements" will be considered doping, but until they are, it's only another tool to be stronger-faster-higher..

lance's likely not clean, but neither is any other athlete at that level.

lemong should shut up and stop acting he's somehow cleaner than lance.
 
reigarc said:
it's naive to assume lemond, or any high performance athlete, did not do everything possible to maximize results.

However, everything that I've ever gotten from context (I was too young to have been paying attention when he was racing) has indicated to me that, with regards to doping, greg lemond was remarkably naive.
 
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Dearest Doktor M,

Thank you so very much for providing that link ...now could you please explain the significance of that very valuable piece that I "missed"....especially considering that those numbers are a wild-*** guess at best...the other numbers,being as they are at least nominally lab based ,can be cross referenced...the wattage stuff not so much...

And seeing as you are a Doktor and all could you please explain Greg's mitochondrial issues...you know the ones that caused his retirement...this has always been a bit of a mystery to me because some doctors( just regular M.D.type doctors) I rode with at the time thought that was the biggest pile of hooey they had heard of on the subject...

Yours so very humbly

Blutto
 
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Actually I do know that modal specificity is important ...but the point is that it doesn't explain the absolutely huge differences that LeMond brings up....

Cheers

Taras
 
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Actually I do know that modal specificity is important ...but the point is that it doesn't explain the absolutely huge differences that LeMond brings up....

Cheers

blutto
 
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blutto said:
just throwing another log on the fire...the following is from an interview gave a while ago...
------------------------------------------------------------
greg lemond: In the 80s when i was racing we did vo2 max testing, but it was to see the physical fitness. My first vo2 max test was up in squaw valley on a treadmill and i had a 79 vo2 max non-specific sport. But once i actually really started doing vo2 max testing on a consistent basis in '89... Now you know it depends upon the level of fitness and training...i was on average about 6.2 to 6.4 liters of oxygen, which translated to my racing weight would be 92, 93, 94 vo2 max. I think only cross-country skier bjørn dæhlie [generally considered the greatest nordic skier of all time, 1992 olympic gold medalist 15 km, 50 km, 4 x 10 km relay cross country skiing], had those same numbers. So i think i had one of, if not the highest


blutto

non-sport specific. Of course, someone is going to put up different values depending on their fitness and if the test is different than the sport they practice. A cyclist is going to put up better numbers the more running he does.

try harder


Why is this thread not in the clinic forum? This has nothing to do with actual racing.
 
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TahoeNL said:
Although not a big Lance fan
This is a dead giveway. Is there some kind of songbook or somefink because the tune is very familiar? I also echo the refrain of others, why isn't this in the clinic? the OP shows all the signs of having recently escaped from one.
 
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TahoeNL said:
I think it funny (and classic) that Lance came back over the top

Which top was that, certainly not the top of Port de Pailheres.

Any of you REALY believe Greg is just a good guy, driven by a desire to clean up the sport? Please... If you believe that I have some land to sell you!

I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.

And I'm not buying anything you are selling.
 
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boy no wonder RadioSmackHeads are doing really bad at this years TdF they are up all night trolling.:rolleyes:

wonder how much Pubic Strata lies pays for trolling. probably in Twek bikes...cardboard ones and a yellow piece of string. Sign me up.
 
Realist said:
No what's interesting here is that you don't know that testing is modality specific. Lemond was a highly trained bike racer, not a highly trained treadmill user. That's why he says 'non-specific sport'. It is amazing to have a vo2max that high in a sport for which you don't even train. The increase is not a longitudinal increase (change over time) but a modality related increase (he got on a bike). To put it a different way: Greg was a bike rider. For a bike rider, he was an incredible runner. But he was even better as a bike rider.

Does this make him clean? No more than anything else. But it's not a analogous to the Coyle/Armstrong story.
I've read that Lemond did a lot of x-country skiing in the off season, and here you say he was a great runner. In that case then, 79 on a treadmill up to 92 on a bike is all but physiologically impossible.
 
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blutto said:
3)..Greg lost his spleen in the hunting accident...among other things the spleen stores red blood corpusules...something one would think may come in handy to an endurance athlete...yet Greg successfully soldiers on regardless...

Blutto
Brand new "factoid" and totally made up to serve your point. His spleen is fine...
 
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Blood doping was completely impractical before EPO (the 3 week recovery period from the donation) and blood only has a shelf life of about 40 days (unless you LN2 freeze it, which I believe Fuentes was doing)
 
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Of course not having seen his spleen in situ or been present in the operating room after the shooting incident I can't be absolutely certain about the spleen reference...however the spleen story was reported in several stories at the time and actually became a point of discussion in our training group which included some medical professionals...the upshot was that we thought that this didn't auger well for Gregie's future as a cyclist...we were quite surprised at how the story eventually worked out...and still am for that matter...and yes 1989 is pivotal in a lot of ways...you have to remember his PDM comeback in 1988 really sucked...then voila...as i said earlier I've seen this story somewhere else...different character..same result...fire with fire indeed...

Cheers

blutto
 
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One of the many articles about LeMond's hunting accident on April 20th, 1987.
Quoting his surgeon: "he should be able to go back and train as vigorously as he had prior to the accident".
You can check many archive news from the time, there are mentions of collapsed right lung, pellets found in the intestines, liver and kidney... Never one mention of a spleen injury (and given that he was shot mainly on his right side, that sounds unlikely...). Just your "reported in several stories at the time" won't cut it...

As for 1988, he crashed and suffered from an inflammation on the tendon, for which he underwent surgery, which put an end to his season before the TdF, and simply meant he started back at zero in the summer of 1988... No weird timing here.
 
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scribe said:
What happened? LeMond is the greatest American cyclist ever. (that felt good to get that off my chest)


No, he wasn't. I'll put up Major Taylor and Art Lonjoso against Greg anytime in the nomination for "greatest".

Now, if you had said "Lemond is the greatest American winner of the TDF", I would not argue with you.
 

buckwheat

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Krebs cycle said:
I've read that Lemond did a lot of x-country skiing in the off season, and here you say he was a great runner. In that case then, 79 on a treadmill up to 92 on a bike is all but physiologically impossible.

Thanks troll. Shouldn't you be sucking up to Coggan?
 

buckwheat

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Krebs cycle said:
I've read that Lemond did a lot of x-country skiing in the off season, and here you say he was a great runner. In that case then, 79 on a treadmill up to 92 on a bike is all but physiologically impossible.

Amazing that you tolerate Coggan's "agnosticism" on the question of LA doping but indict LeMond on, well, nothing. Some scientific method!
 
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Ryo Hazuki said:
you do know that bloodtransfusions before even the 90s was like playing with your life right?? ever wondered why no cyclist ever or any sportsman was ever caught or admitted to doing that previous to the 2000s??

QUOTE]

The earliest suspect re blood transfusions ( autogenios) I know of was Lasse Viren, Olympic disdance runner.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasse_Virén Back as early as the 70`s .

Ive always suspectd autogenious blood banking in the very elite may have been around before 1980.

Think Lemond was clean though.
 

buckwheat

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Darryl Webster said:
Ryo Hazuki said:
you do know that bloodtransfusions before even the 90s was like playing with your life right?? ever wondered why no cyclist ever or any sportsman was ever caught or admitted to doing that previous to the 2000s??

QUOTE]

The earliest suspect re blood transfusions ( autogenios) I know of was Lasse Viren, Olympic disdance runner.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasse_Virén Back as early as the 70`s .

Ive always suspectd autogenious blood banking in the very elite may have been around before 1980.

Think Lemond was clean though.

You're correct but the logistics are much more difficult on Tour. Viren peaked twice in '72 and '76. He did nothing in between.
 
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As for 1988 said:
Which explains why by Feb 89 in the Tour of Americas he was still carrying a lot of extra timber. By July he` was just beginging to show real form and no matter how you cut it Fignon was beet by a pair of tri bars and pointy hat, it was that close and Lemond just outsmarted him re the kit.
A travesty from a sporting perspective but it does seem the UCI tech heads had little idea of the amount of advantage they gave away to LeMond in allowing there use.
Who didnt feel for Fignon, a Frenchman to lose the TDF that way would brake most people.
Bloody exciting though!:D
 
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Darryl Webster said:
Who didnt feel for Fignon, a Frenchman to lose the TDF that way would brake most people.
I didn't... At the time there were a lot more post-stage interviews and TV shows than now on French TV, and there was such a gap between LeMond's and Fignon's behavior in those that it was easy for many french people to root for LeMond over the Frenchman. I'd say that in my family and circle of friends, it was around 2/3 of people rooting for LeMond...
 

Dr. Maserati

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blutto said:
Dearest Doktor M,

Thank you so very much for providing that link ...now could you please explain the significance of that very valuable piece that I "missed"....especially considering that those numbers are a wild-*** guess at best...the other numbers,being as they are at least nominally lab based ,can be cross referenced...the wattage stuff not so much...

And seeing as you are a Doktor and all could you please explain Greg's mitochondrial issues...you know the ones that caused his retirement...this has always been a bit of a mystery to me because some doctors( just regular M.D.type doctors) I rode with at the time thought that was the biggest pile of hooey they had heard of on the subject...

Yours so very humbly

Blutto

Your welcome, and please don't sweat it, no need to be humble ..... just honest.


I must admit I am unfamiliar with your MDs medical term "a big pile of hooey" - so I will bow to their obvious expertise on the matter as I am just a humble ProTour gynecologist - so I look in to other things.