Lance v. Lemond - Lemond comes clean?

[red_flanders]

wouldnt you?

Heck yes! LOL. I'd say he's kept it amazingly cool 'till now.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Or he was simply too old to even compete on an equal basis even with EPO? And that hunting accident probably did some permanent harm as well, although that's just my assumption.

Look at the story of Tom Simpson. They doped with all kinds of stuff and it did help them ride better.

Yeah that alcohol sure helped simpson up the ventoux.

and you do know that after the hunting accident Lemond still won the tour twice

and lemond was 30 in 1992...

 

[hrotha]

and how many riders exactly died or got seriously injured around 1992 from these risks??

No idea. Not sure what point you're making either.

 

[nia O'Malley]

To be fair, the perceived health risk of using EPO was high when it was first introduced. A rider could be willing to take some PEDs but shy away from EPO due to health concerns.

Yes, but enhanced is enhanced, so the simple fact that he faded so badly against the new EPO boys might show he was not enhanced after all?


Of course, it all depends what one calls "doping" or "enhanced". Coming from (european) horseracing, where giving a simple Mars bar to a horse will get it disqualified, the trainer fined and possibly temp banned, and other nasty things, the idea of caffeine gel makes me laugh already

 

[Anonymous]

“We will have the opportunity to tell the truth to the authorities, and Greg LeMond will tell the truth about 1989 I hope,” - Lance
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/07/news/greg-lemond-says-proble-could-end-lance-armstrong_129823

I love it! Lance fighting fire with fire! I have never really been a fan of Lance but the more LeMond talks, the more I want him to go away! Whatever Lances failings are - Greg is proving to be among the most bitter people I have ever heard. He has little room for anyone on the stage except himself... I reflect back to how he chased down his own teammate down, Jonathan Boyer in the 1982 Worlds. Thats seems to sum up what Greg is all about - Greg.

Keep your heads down fellas, this guy is a professional....

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

No idea. Not sure what point you're making either.

I try to say Riders will take ANY risk as long as nobody got killed by it. just look at how they used cera years before it was officially introduced.

 

[Polish]

Listening to the Greg FanBoys is like Deja-vu all over again

Brings back warm memories of the early Lance FanBoys....

Never tested positive.
Big VO2 max.
Long Femurs.
Ttransformed by buckshot.
Taco Bell lofat menu

But how long until the Greg FanBoys start to claim that "everbody did it"?
Wont be long....

 

[El Pistolero]

Yeah that alcohol sure helped simpson up the ventoux.

and you do know that after the hunting accident Lemond still won the tour twice

and lemond was 30 in 1992...

Doesn't take away the fact that Simpson doped with all kinds of stuff now does it? I wasn't referring to his death, but doping also played a huge role in the cause of his death anyway. And I do know Lemond won 2 more Tours. But there were honestly no great GC contenders in his third Tour victory and his second one was so close. And he didn't win the 1989 Tour because he was the best cyclist anyway. Probably a lot smarter then Fignon, but not better at all.

 

[hrotha]

I try to say Riders will take ANY risk as long as nobody got killed by it. just look at how they used cera years before it was officially introduced.

That depends. The perceived risk of CERA was probably not as high as that of EPO when it was first introduced, because they had been doing EPO during their whole careers. I remember reading about an unnamed Belgian rider who, around 1993 or 1994, complained about how no-name Italian riders came out of nowhere to sweep the classics and asked rhetorically if he too should start doing EPO too and risk heart failure. This is of course just fuzzy memories but I think that was the common perception at the time, except among the avant-garde dopers.

 

[frizzlefry]

Listening to the Greg FanBoys is like Deja-vu all over again

Brings back warm memories of the early Lance FanBoys....

Never tested positive.
Big VO2 max.
Long Femurs.
Ttransformed by buckshot.
Taco Bell lofat menu

But how long until the Greg FanBoys start to claim that "everbody did it"?
Wont be long....

LOL, they have gone from Landis Fanboys to Greg Fanboys.

 

[red_flanders]

Listening to the Greg FanBoys is like Deja-vu all over again

Brings back warm memories of the early Lance FanBoys....

Never tested positive.
Big VO2 max.
Long Femurs.
Ttransformed by buckshot.
Taco Bell lofat menu

But how long until the Greg FanBoys start to claim that "everbody did it"?
Wont be long....

This will all happen as soon as someone produces evidence that Greg doped. Let along the staggering mountain of evidence which exists against Armstrong.

Do you have any evidence? I'll wait. Been waiting for years now.

 

[perico]

To be fair, the perceived health risk of using EPO was high when it was first introduced. A rider could be willing to take some PEDs but shy away from EPO due to health concerns.

Which was the exact admission of one Laurant Fignon. I take it not many here have read his autobiography yet. Great read, and now in English.

I guess not.

 

[simo1733]

lemond was never doped for christ sake. epo didn't start until 1992. and that was exactly when lemond and the colombians started to seriously fade away in the peloton and nobody's like ugrumov, bobrik and riis started to become climbers.

Are you joking.Delgado had a positive test im 1988.Doping didn't begin with epo you know.

 

[scribe]

The sad thing is you actually believe that's the point of all this. Armstrong has told you, and you believe.

Actually, I don't think Armstrong has ever said such a thing. But I can understand you are here to get some Armstrong arguments going, as discussed in another thread.

 

[Publicus]

How is this not in the clinic? I'd be curious to see what evidence the proponents have to support their supposition.

 

[blutto]

Find below a few factoids to throw on the fire so-to-speak...

1)...Epo was introduced/approved in 1989...

2)...Greg was a big fan of large injections of B-12 and Iron supplements to help promote recovery...such injections were also used at the time by steroid users as masking agents...a coincidence?...maybe?..

3)..Greg lost his spleen in the hunting accident...among other things the spleen stores red blood corpusules...something one would think may come in handy to an endurance athlete...yet Greg successfully soldiers on regardless...

...hope these help the discussion...

Cheers

Blutto

 

[goober]

lemond was never doped for christ sake. epo didn't start until 1992. and that was exactly when lemond and the colombians started to seriously fade away in the peloton and nobody's like ugrumov, bobrik and riis started to become climbers.

Since when does EPO <=> doped? EPO = Doped but it is not exclusive. And yes LeMond was probably doped. I will agree EPO is a better dope than LeMond had...

 

[ozymandias]

How is this not in the clinic? I'd be curious to see what evidence the proponents have to support their supposition.

It's not in the clinic because nobody cares about the rules. Ironic.

 

[goober]

It's not in the clinic because nobody cares about the rules. Ironic.

Oops - I thought I was in the clinic.

 

[scribe]

How is this not in the clinic? I'd be curious to see what evidence the proponents have to support their supposition.

It's an Armstrong sludgefest. Rarely does LA make these sorts of mistakes in the press, I suppose you could say it an act of desperation. In a way, it's pretty much the way LeMond conducts all of his interviews, and I don't agree with either one.

 

[beeped]

EPO experiments began in the early 1900's. EPO experiments for humans increased in the 1980's. And the American Food and Drug Administration approved EPO in 1989.

It seems to me that the testing for PED's didn't improve until recently so the truth form decades gone by is going to be impossible to get at.

When we find out that doping has been a rampant part of cycling throughout its history do we just wipe out the results and start fresh after the smoke clears.

 

[TahoeNL]

Wow! I'm not sure how we got on the "when did epo and doping start" talk... My original intent was to see if anyone else feel's like I do, Although not a big Lance fan, I am really sick of Greg and his polemic. The more he talks the less I respect him. I think it funny (and classic) that Lance came back over the top by alluding that Greg needs to "tell the truth about 1989." Why not fire back at LeMond with some dirt? Any of you REALY believe Greg is just a good guy, driven by a desire to clean up the sport? Please... If you believe that I have some land to sell you!

 

[blutto]

Just throwing another log on the fire...the following is from an interview gave a while ago...
------------------------------------------------------------
Greg LeMond: In the 80s when I was racing we did VO2 Max testing, but it was to see the physical fitness. My first VO2 Max test was up in Squaw Valley on a treadmill and I had a 79 VO2 Max non-specific sport. But once I actually really started doing VO2 Max testing on a consistent basis in '89... now you know it depends upon the level of fitness and training...I was on average about 6.2 to 6.4 liters of Oxygen, which translated to my racing weight would be 92, 93, 94 VO2 Max. I think only cross-country skier Bjørn Dæhlie [Generally considered the greatest Nordic skier of all time, 1992 Olympic Gold Medalist 15 km, 50 km, 4 x 10 km relay cross country skiing], had those same numbers. So I think I had one of, if not the highest

----------------------------------------------------------
...what is interesting here is the huge jump in VO2 Max...and yes Greg does try to explain that away with an exercise specificity argument similar to ideas related to Lance's increased efficiency tests...and frankly neither claim holds much water ( in fact the Lance tests produced quite a battle among academics that would lead to the claims being either withdrawn or highly modified)....what is also interesting is the date of that second series of tests...1989...coincidence?...maybe?...but these kinds of increases in metabolic efficiency are pretty special are they not?...from real great to bestest ever!!!!...I've seen this story before somewhere...

Cheers

Blutto

 

[redtreviso]

It's kinda like this..In the 80s the colombians and italians had double shot expressos,,then the dutch had double shot expressos and a jolt cola from the team car..Then a few spaniards had double shot expressos, a jolt cola and a vivarin in a peach..Then Riis and Armstrong came along and they were doing foot long rails of Meth ICE..Weeeee! Hoooooooo!!!! Weeeeee! Hoooooooooo!!!

 

[nslckevin]

you do know that bloodtransfusions before even the 90s was like playing with your life right?? ever wondered why no cyclist ever or any sportsman was ever caught or admitted to doing that previous to the 2000s??

and besides if lemond was doped in the 80s then why didn't he go with the new doping epo in early 90s?? because he wanted to suck??

Umm, does the 1984 Olympic cycling team ring a bell?

SI Article

Blood doping wasn't even illegal then, at least at the Olympics.

Also here

Kevin