Lance v. Lemond - Lemond comes clean?

[Animal]

Who didnt feel for Fignon, a Frenchman to lose the TDF that way would brake most people.

"break".

Apparently it did: http://www.theridejournal.com/articles/tt_lemond.html

 

[simoni]

I'm sure I've read an account by the Tour doctor of the 60s about the risks riders were taking in the early 60s wrt blood transfusions etc. Something about a homemade transfusion kit in a hotel room and Gastone Nencini is in my mind for some reason. Have I lost it at the age of 32 or can someone else remember?!

I'm not sure about the logisitcs of regularly drawing/infusing blood pre EPO esp. in the context of a stage race but theres no doubt that blood doping had been used across a number of sports and I've no doubt that some cyclists were doing it although not as effectively as now.

As far as Lemond and VO2 max goes I'm primarily a runner (at national and, a couple of times, international level) who also cycles a bit and I certainly can't cross over from one sport to the other at will. Running I can hold a heart rate of 175+ for a half marathon - on a bike-turbo I can barely manage this for a few minutes at a time. I personally have no difficulty believing in the 79 and 90+ VO2max readings difference - even though some of the same muscles are being used on a bike I think that they become a limiting factor to performance whereas running my legs can keep up with my CV system for much longer and to a higher level.

 

[Black-Balled]

who cares seriously the only doping that matters is epo. ...

"It looks like CocoboloCowboy has stolen your accounts, because your posts are stupid" ~Roy Steffenson

 

[mercycle]

When done properly, aren't there more muscles in use at any point in time when running vs cycling? If you are sitting on the bike correctly, you shouldn't be using a lot of muscles to hold your body in position (theoretical ideal), just your legs going around. Running you are using muscles to hold yourself upright and you are kind of lifting your body weight on one leg whenever you push off.

Just wondering if these differences could result in different VO2 max and threshold heartrates.

Note: these are just speculations by an engineer, who has both run and cycled for a while and is looking for more "reasons" to explain away my performance (or lack there of).

 

[Darryl Webster]

"break".

Apparently it did: http://www.theridejournal.com/articles/tt_lemond.html

Cheers for the link Animal. A couple of thing worth adding ,I recall Fignon was suffeeing with a badly placed saddle boil and a lot of people forget that the downhill , tail wind nasture that gave the very hi speed to the event suited Greg who had the benifit of having been world class at persuiting ( 2nd World Junior champs 79 and thus being more at home with a higher cadance. that was ideal for the course.
One final thing, Fignon used a front disc wheel and the footage shows there were places handling was effected. That decition to use a front disc alone could have been enough to account for the 8 secs final gc deficit.

 

[callac]

LeMond also told that he did tests afterwards with his helmet, which was well profiled if he had been looking straight in front of him, but for most of the TT he was actually looking down, and his helmet was actually a big drag in that context (I don't remember the actual figure, but it was really not negligible), and he rode a few TT afterwards with no helmet...

 

[Cloxxki]

Running and XC skiing are extremely tough on the body. Lots of muscles used. Most for XC. This makes it awesome training for bike riding.
However, if a bike rider jumps on the treadmills, he'll have not as nice a score as on teh bike, due to efficiency.
I'm a non-runner myself, but I've run on rainy sundays once in a while and a bit more on Dutch off-seasons. With MUCH worse fitness (+10kg of FAT and total lack of trainign volume), I have in fact managed to squash my running speed of when I was rocking (ok, participating in) the MTB scene.

It's too off-topic to offer a link, but a 79 VO2Max brings some pretty awesome track times on the clock. Calculators exist for it online. Of course, those are just estimates.
With a 92 VO2Max, Greg would have been running world records. With 79, he's be a national contender, possibly winner.
XC Skiers usually train a lot on foot. there are several cases where they (in their off-season) go and win national evens on the track, or mountain runs. Bikes are way boring when you're used to XC skiing, but trust me they'd be fast on them

 

[Fester]

Two things:

1.) It is not implausible that someone, a world class, TDF winning athlete shot in the kidneys (primary site of EPO production) had access to EPO soon after it's release (1989 in US, 1988 in Europe).

2.) Worse than "trolling" is the people incessantly complaining about it. Surely you can read and analyze information and reply (or not) accordingly?

 

[Ferminal]

Two things:

1.) It is not implausible that someone, a world class, TDF winning athlete shot in the kidneys (primary site of EPO production) had access to EPO soon after it's release (1989 in US, 1988 in Europe).

Finally, the truth of 1989!

 

[blutto]

Of course not having seen his spleen in situ or been present in the operating room after the shooting incident I can't be absolutely certain about the spleen reference...however the spleen story was reported in several stories at the time and actually became a point of discussion in our training group which included some medical professionals...the upshot was that we thought that this didn't auger well for Gregie's future as a cyclist...we were quite surprised at how the story eventually worked out...and still am for that matter...and yes 1989 is pivotal in a lot of ways...you have to remember his PDM comeback in 1988 really sucked...then voila...as i said earlier I've seen this story somewhere else...different character..same result...fire with fire indeed...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Animal]

Geraint Thomas has no spleen. Removed after a severe training accident.

Is that what you heard?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Of course not having seen his spleen in situ or been present in the operating room after the shooting incident I can't be absolutely certain about the spleen reference...however the spleen story was reported in several stories at the time and actually became a point of discussion in our training group which included some medical professionals...the upshot was that we thought that this didn't auger well for Gregie's future as a cyclist...we were quite surprised at how the story eventually worked out...and still am for that matter...and yes 1989 is pivotal in a lot of ways...you have to remember his PDM comeback in 1988 really sucked...then voila...as i said earlier I've seen this story somewhere else...different character..same result...fire with fire indeed...

Cheers

blutto

I am wondering who you are talking about here?

Lemond finished 3rd in his first Tour, 2nd in his second and won his third - and then was out of the sport through his injuries.
It took quite some time - but he got back close to his previous talent.

Who is the rider that you are comparing Lemond to?

 

[mikkemus23]

Is this LA new defence - "Greg did it too?" Obviously he has spread the 300k thin, and gotten himself some new trolls.

 

[VeloCity]

Thats seems to sum up what Greg is all about - Greg.

And that is different from Lance how, exactly?

 

[blutto]

One of the many articles about LeMond's hunting accident on April 20th, 1987.
Quoting his surgeon: "he should be able to go back and train as vigorously as he had prior to the accident".
You can check many archive news from the time, there are mentions of collapsed right lung, pellets found in the intestines, liver and kidney... Never one mention of a spleen injury (and given that he was shot mainly on his right side, that sounds unlikely...). Just your "reported in several stories at the time" won't cut it...

As for 1988, he crashed and suffered from an inflammation on the tendon, for which he underwent surgery, which put an end to his season before the TdF, and simply meant he started back at zero in the summer of 1988... No weird timing here.

Very interesting response though checking the timing of that quote and reading it against the following quote from LeMond is kinda interesting...

--------------------------------------------------------------

LeMond: The lifestyle, racing in the cold rain and living from day to day between motel rooms can be brutal-it's the toughest sport in the world. Lance went through chemo, then he had a year off where he realized how nice life is in America. I'm telling you, life is good here. I unwisely rushed right back into racing six months later. I was shot in April and I was back in September. I really should have had more of a program like Lance. He was advised properly by medical doctors. My haematocrit [percentage of packed red blood to the volume of whole blood] went down to about 19. Nearly sixty percent of my blood volume was gone and that takes months to get back. I remember going back to Europe at the end of August and only being able to make it one mile into a race. I was doing it because my contract with PDM was contingent that I would start racing again in '88. Plus my contract with La Vie Claire required that I race X number of days in '87; if I hadn't raced again that year they would have been able to cancel my contract. So I was forced to go back.

....from...http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/lemond98.html...

----------------------------------------------------------------

...would seem that the surgeon's prognosis is a hair off...maybe using his quote to buttress an argument is not such a great idea because he seems to be speaking from his nether regions...note that LeMond claims to have pellets in the lining of his heart which I believe is on the left side of the body and you say he was shot from the right...hmmmm?...please square that circle...and please also note the blood reference...and suddenly in 1989 we have miracles????...

Cheers

blutto

 

[VeloCity]

Look, this whole Lemond vs Armstrong debate is very simple to understand:

Lemond - absolutely zero evidence of doping from zero sources.
Armstrong - tons of evidence of doping from numerous sources.

Maybe someday several ex-teammates and ex-soigneurs will come forward to allege that Lemond was doping as they have done with Armstrong, and then it'll be a fair-game comparison. But until then, it's absolutely ridiculous to even have them in the same sentence when it comes to doping.

 

[buckwheat]

Two things:

1.) It is not implausible that someone, a world class, TDF winning athlete shot in the kidneys (primary site of EPO production) had access to EPO soon after it's release (1989 in US, 1988 in Europe).

2.) Worse than "trolling" is the people incessantly complaining about it. Surely you can read and analyze information and reply (or not) accordingly?

God help us all.

It's not implausable. The problem however, is that it didn't happen.

LeMond nearly bled out when he was shot and didn't even receive blood at the hospital because there were concerns that the blood bank at UC Davis was contaminated.

He could have used EPO which was (according to the trollers here) so widely available in clinical studies, but he didn't.

There's no evidence, none, not even rumor but just go on and make $hit up.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Thanks troll. Shouldn't you be sucking up to Coggan?

Settle down champ. In the last 10yrs I've been first hand witness to "heated international sport science controversy", progress to "consensus and greater scientific understanding and awareness for humankind to enjoy forever more". I can appreciate the important value that is contained in what may seem to be extremely differing points of view. There is a cliche somewhere that says something about the truth lying somewhere in the middle.

 

[Tim_sleepless]

Very interesting response though checking the timing of that quote and reading it against the following quote from LeMond is kinda interesting...

--------------------------------------------------------------

LeMond: I really should have had more of a program like Lance.

I'll bet..

 

[Krebs cycle]

Amazing that you tolerate Coggan's "agnosticism" on the question of LA doping but indict LeMond on, well, nothing. Some scientific method!

Jumping to conclusions you are buckwheat. I haven't mentioned anything about Lemond and I couldn't care less if it was Lemond or your mum that went from 79 to 92, treadmill to bike. It is nigh on impossible unless you have legs like Ronnie Coleman and an upper body like Peewee Herman, or if you are a really really really crap runner.

It has much to do with muscle mass. Muscles consume oxygen. Within a given trained individual (ie: oxygen transport system remains the same), the greater the muscle mass, the greater the VO2. Simple concept.

79 is 85% of 92. If 92 is the true VO2max then this would imply that when running an individual would need to fatigue so badly in the legs that they couldn't maintain threshold pace for even 1 or 2 minutes. Sedentary people can even do that on a treadmill.


My only comment on doping is to say that if the 90s was the era of EPO, then the 80s was the era of steroids. Are you going to dispute this?

 

[buckwheat]

Jumping to conclusions you are buckwheat. I haven't mentioned anything about Lemond and I couldn't care less if it was Lemond or your mum that went from 79 to 92, treadmill to bike. It is nigh on impossible unless you have legs like Ronnie Coleman and an upper body like Peewee Herman, or if you are a really really really crap runner.

It has much to do with muscle mass. Muscles consume oxygen. Within a given trained individual (ie: oxygen transport system remains the same), the greater the muscle mass, the greater the VO2. Simple concept.

79 is 85% of 92. If 92 is the true VO2max then this would imply that when running an individual would need to fatigue so badly in the legs that they couldn't maintain threshold pace for even 1 or 2 minutes. Sedentary people can even do that on a treadmill.


My only comment on doping is to say that if the 90s was the era of EPO, then the 80s was the era of steroids. Are you going to dispute this?

You haven't mentioned anything about LeMond?

Nice disconnect.

He evidently was a really crap runner in comparison to his cycling abilities.

I'm not positive but I believe those readings were taken years and years apart.

Also, running at the speed (5min/mile?) or incline required for the 1st test with a tube in your mouth and your nose clamped shut can't be very easy when you only rarely run. So, for you to make these silly comparisons and draw your scurrilous conclusions is absurd.

Nothing will stop you from making your cheap insinuations based on just about nothing.

The crazy thing is that you're the one smearing someone on the slightest vapor of evidence. Talk about jumping to conclusions.

 

[buckwheat]

Settle down champ. In the last 10yrs I've been first hand witness to "heated international sport science controversy", progress to "consensus and greater scientific understanding and awareness for humankind to enjoy forever more". I can appreciate the important value that is contained in what may seem to be extremely differing points of view. There is a cliche somewhere that says something about the truth lying somewhere in the middle.

Good grief champ!

What does this have to do with smearing someone based on a speck of dust as evidence.

 

[Krebs cycle]

You haven't mentioned anything about LeMond?

Nice disconnect.

He evidently was a really crap runner in comparison to his cycling abilities.

I'm not positive but I believe those readings were taken years and years apart.

Also, running at the speed (5min/mile?) or incline required for the 1st test with a tube in your mouth and your nose clamped shut can't be very easy when you only rarely run. So, for you to make these silly comparisons and draw your scurrilous conclusions is absurd.

Nothing will stop you from making your cheap insinuations based on just about nothing.

The crazy thing is that you're the one smearing someone on the slightest vapor of evidence. Talk about jumping to conclusions.

Um yeah ok, maybe you should lay off the crack for a while dude.

 

[buckwheat]

Settle down champ. In the last 10yrs I've been first hand witness to "heated international sport science controversy", progress to "consensus and greater scientific understanding and awareness for humankind to enjoy forever more". I can appreciate the important value that is contained in what may seem to be extremely differing points of view. There is a cliche somewhere that says something about the truth lying somewhere in the middle.

Book: 100 Scientists Say Einstein's Theory is Wrong

Einstein reply: Why 100? If I'm wrong, shouldn't it take only 1 to prove it?



You're the cliche bro.

 

[buckwheat]

Um yeah ok, maybe you should lay off the crack for a while dude.

Thanks for the confirmation you have nothing dude.