Lance Who?

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Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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andy1234 said:
OK, so lets pretend Armstrong never existed. Every tour since 1999 was won by an Indurain type character. ie likeable understated etc, but the doping situation remained.

Would the Clinic even exist? Would the same number of anti doping posters exist?
No, the "Clinic" would not exist. No, there would no fanboys or haters. Go back and look at the first threads on the Clinic. Lance is there. 89 more pages of Clinic Threads. Lance is there.

And if Lance did not exist, the fragile Seedling of Clean Cycling that sprouted in August 1998 would have flourished.

Marco would not have been doped to the gills in the 99 Giro and would have won his second Giro/TdF Double. In the years to come there would have been a French Tour winner or two. Simeoni would have won more stages.

Liberty Seguros would have been known as the Clean Team - Alberto would have won his 5th TdF in 2010 and joined Jacques/Eddy/Bernard/BigMig as the only riders to have won 5 TdFs.

Damn you, Lance.

Damn you:(
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Bilirubin said:
That's a cartoon version of reality. What happened is Lance came along and Americans started to notice what was already happening. The idea that Pantani and his ilk were about to stop doping up to 60%, or the deeply embedded cultures in Italy and Spain were going to change, is bogus.
How so? Is the timeline off?

As to how the Euros were dealing with it... Police raids, civil cases based upon the breaking of national laws, guys actually getting popped, etc. etc.

Love the hate, or hate the love?
 
May 26, 2010
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veganrob said:
I was not trolling at all, in fact I agree with you. You answered all the questions intelligently.
Sorry veganRob i was not accusing you of trolling.... but the OP andy1234.
 
andy1234 said:
Firstly, thanks for the reasoned response.
I wasn't really looking for a silver lining, I was more interested to see if the level of interest in doping shown around here would be the same if Armstrong didn't figure.
I haven't been around long enough to separate trolls from lures, but this increasingly seems over-simplistic.

Q: Would Americans care about doping if there were no Lance?
A: See Balco, Valley of the Dolls, The Mitchell Report, Dr. Wade Exum...

Q: Would Americans care about cycling if there were no Lance?
A: See Greg LeMond

Q: Would Americans care about the tower of Frants if there were no Lance?
A: See George Bush

Q: Would the world of cycling care about doping without Lance?
A: See Festina, OP, Oil for drugs, Ferrari/Conconi, Tom Simpson, et al.

Q: Would the world care about Cancer if there were no Lance?
A: See Terry Fox, Susan G. Komen, Dana Reeve, Michael Douglas, Peter Jennings, etc.

Q: Would Cancer charities care if there were no cancer?
A: Livestrong doesn't even make the list of top-rated charities

LAF spent as much as $45 to raise each $100, exceeding AIP’s 35% recommended fundraising ceiling by a significant margin.

Q: Would the fanboys have a venue to demonstrate loyalty and lust without forums like this one
A: See mirror

Dave.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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JMBeaushrimp said:
How so? Is the timeline off?

As to how the Euros were dealing with it... Police raids, civil cases based upon the breaking of national laws, guys actually getting popped, etc. etc.

Love the hate, or hate the love?
Yes, your timeline is off.

Lance came back in September 1998.

The Police raids, civil cases based upon the breaking of national laws, guys actually getting popped you speak of came after Lance's return. The Hate started after Lance's return.

You speak of a "time after Festina" and "before the return of Lance" that things were starting to get better. When was that again?

Fans were mad when doper Marco got DQ'ed in the 99 Giro.
Gotti was booed.
 
May 26, 2010
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D-Queued said:
I haven't been around long enough to separate trolls from lures, but this increasingly seems over-simplistic.

Q: Would Americans care about doping if there were no Lance?
A: See Balco, Valley of the Dolls, The Mitchell Report, Dr. Wade Exum...

Q: Would Americans care about cycling if there were no Lance?
A: See Greg LeMond

Q: Would Americans care about the tower of Frants if there were no Lance?
A: See George Bush

Q: Would the world of cycling care about doping without Lance?
A: See Festina, OP, Oil for drugs, Ferrari/Conconi, Tom Simpson, et al.

Q: Would the world care about Cancer if there were no Lance?
A: See Terry Fox, Susan G. Komen, Dana Reeve, Michael Douglas, Peter Jennings, etc.

Q: Would Cancer charities care if there were no cancer?
A: Livestrong doesn't even make the list of top-rated charities

LAF spent as much as $45 to raise each $100, exceeding AIP’s 35% recommended fundraising ceiling by a significant margin.

Q: Would the fanboys have a venue to demonstrate loyalty and lust without forums like this one
A: See mirror

Dave.
We have a winner. Great post. now can this thread be closed by deleting my post and Polish's rhetoric leaving the one above the Uniballpolishers as a perfect full stop.:)
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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What I see here is the haters hate Lance because he divorced Kristian and started dating Sheryl Crow.
I hear all the haters hating Lance just to give their life meeting. The hate will make us stronger.
 
Jun 13, 2010
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flicker said:
What I see here is the haters hate Lance because he divorced Kristian and started dating Sheryl Crow.
I hear all the haters hating Lance just to give their life meeting. The hate will make us stronger.
No, LiveStrong will make us stronger:

DopeStrong, LiveWrong, RideStrong
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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sartain said:
No, LiveStrong will make us stronger:

DopeStrong, LiveWrong, RideStrong
The yellow bracelet is a loop of beauty a continuence of life after death and the endless cycle of rebirth. In otherwords whwn I glue myClement Criterium Setas to set track records
Unfortunatly when the haters disrupt this cycle with their negative minus life message I have flashbackss of the Church of the Sub-Genius. anti-matter and reverend Bob Dobbs rhetoric.
 

Dettol

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Nov 10, 2010
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Lance is a neccessary evil. Amongst anglophone countries cycling on the whole (not just road racing) would of been poorer without him. I'd say there wouldn't be as many cyclists without him.

Also a lot of people 'in the real world' like Lance. He comes off as approachable and funny when compared to people like Cadel and Cavendish. They gravitate to his discipline, his work ethic and his die hard attitude. In short he sells the American dream- work hard and you can get anywhere. Single parent family. Check. Poor. Check. Life Threatening Disease. Check. He overcame it all and became the best. They may hear that he's an champion from time to time but then guys you can't be soft in this world. Not for what he has been through! Life is hard but if you work hard you can overcome anything. Sell the dream.

After reading about him he seems like a very angry guy, a guy with a huge chip on his shoulder and ready to conquer the world. In a lot of ways it was understandable the way his mother bought him up to feed on this anger to propel him to 'great' heights which he has done. But he'd be a happier person be it a lot less successful if he calmed down and relaxed his attitude to life.
 
May 14, 2010
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JMBeaushrimp said:
I see this as being the irony of the situation.

There was a ground-swell of motivation to expose entrenched doping on pro teams when Festina went down. Things looked like they were actually going to change. Federal police from various countries were searching houses, 'the sh*t' became illegal in civil courts in key European countries. Etc. etc. etc.

It was starting to look promising...

Then Lance came along, and everything went sideways. Increased omerta, so many rumours of misdeeds that it's literally unprecedented in cycling, buy-outs, bribes, sh*t-talking, over-the-top claims, blatant lies, and even more obsufcation of the issue...

I'm not sure what you're looking for in terms of LA's legacy, but I get the feeling that you're looking for a silver lining within this giant ball of manure.

Let me be clear - LA is a crucial part of the problem, and in no way can be seen as part of the solution.
What constitutes a "groundswell of motivation"? Does that phrase really have any substance? Rather than a groundswell, I think what we saw was a tactical, and very temporary retrenchment; the peloton, some of it, pulling back a bit on their medical preparation until things died down.

Bilirubin said:
That's a cartoon version of reality. What happened is Lance came along and Americans started to notice what was already happening. The idea that Pantani and his ilk were about to stop doping up to 60%, or the deeply embedded cultures in Italy and Spain were going to change, is bogus.
This now-banned writer is right. Imagining that the peloton would have become clean, if only Lance hadn't shown up, or hadn't shown up doped, is just that - imagining. Somebody was going to win the '99 Tour, and that somebody was going to be doped just like previous winners. The fact there wasn't even a test for EPO at the time makes this conclusion even more foregone. Perhaps less of the peloton was doped that year, but so what?

European racing, then and now, was thoroughly imbued with drugs. Drugs and corruption. Without a deep, sweeping, and systemic change, the drug culture of cycling wasn't going anywhere, then or now. A drug bust in the peloton might have made the dishes rattle, but it didn't move the foundation. For all his complicity, cycling would still be that way even if Armstrong had never set foot in the house.
 
For what it's worth, my original question was not meant to turn into the usual Lance love, Lance hate debate.
A debate about the impact Armstrong has had on the strength of feeling within the anti doping community, as opposed to other dopers, was the aim.
 
May 14, 2010
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andy1234 said:
For what it's worth, my original question was not meant to turn into the usual Lance love, Lance hate debate.
A debate about the impact Armstrong has had on the strength of feeling within the anti doping community, as opposed to other dopers, was the aim.
I guess we got a little sidetracked, huh? How did that happen? :) Your original question is an interesting one. If Lance had spent the aughts swimming and cycling and running in Hawaii, what would we be talking about now?

I think the Americans would be saying, "LeMond is the only one who won it clean." And the Europeans would be extolling, as they already do, the athletic virtues of Pantani or Ulrich and whoever came next, and replying, "Clean? What are you talking about?" But the thing is, and I think it's key, the Euro Tour champion would have had respect enough, or sense enough, to stop at five consecutive wins. Six was rubbing their faces in it. And seven was just asking for trouble.

In other words, without the seven consecutive wins of the overbearing American, Armstrong, the anti-doping impetus would probably be less right now. But who really knows for sure?
 

jimmypop

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Jul 16, 2010
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Maxiton said:
In other words, without the seven consecutive wins of the overbearing American, Armstrong, the anti-doping impetus would probably be less right now. But who really knows for sure?
Precisely! Pondering the hypothetical is fine, but here's there's little use. As a point of discussion, I suppose it can be interesting; though I still think the original post was a troll that OP has since backed slowly away from, particularly given OP's posting history.

In my universe, Armstrong did win those tours, and he did it doped. Did his dominance help to encourage an era of hyper-doping following the events of 1998? It seems likely.
 
andy1234 said:
Would the Clinic even exist?
Would the same number of anti doping posters exist?
Yes, it would exist.

No there wouldn't be the same number of posters. Unless, of course, there was someone they could "hate on" as much.

Thanks for starting an entertaining thread. All you need to know is which button to push and the puppet show starts.
 
SpeedWay said:
Yes, it would exist.

No there wouldn't be the same number of posters. Unless, of course, there was someone they could "hate on" as much.

Thanks for starting an entertaining thread. All you need to know is which button to push and the puppet show starts.
Also known as trolling.
 

jimmypop

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Jul 16, 2010
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SpeedWay said:
Thanks for starting an entertaining thread. All you need to know is which button to push and the puppet show starts.
Are you referring to the "haters", or to the Armstrong supporters - paid, unpaid, blissfully ignorant, and insane alike?

When people start threads like this, I just wish they'd be candid and say what they mean (Chris E, I'm pointing the finger at you). Rather than winding one's brain into knots of rationalizations, I'd rather these posters just say, "Look, I have a human hero in Armstrong, and I don't care that he doped." Contorting logic to justify or otherwise minimize the PED use is a waste of intellectual resources.
 
Ferminal said:
Also known as trolling.
Not if it's unintentional.
Its like pavlovs dogs here unfortunately.
Replace the bell with the word Armstrong and replace slobbering with adoration or disgust.

It's an emotive subject for some, but not for all, including me.
 
andy1234 said:
Not if it's unintentional.
Its like pavlovs dogs here unfortunately.
Replace the bell with the word Armstrong and replace slobbering with adoration or disgust.

It's an emotive subject for some, but not for all, including me.
Sorry, wasn't directed at you!
 

jimmypop

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Jul 16, 2010
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Archibald said:
clinic would exist, but it wouldn't be the constant sh*tfight over one particular doper that is currently is.
It may actually discuss what it's intended to, quite civiliy and rationally...
A related question, I guess: If Armstrong's doping wasn't so egregious, and if the perceived notion of one-day-racer-turned-GT-specialist wasn't so closely correlated with his PED use, would fans still be so upset? Probably; I think another rider or riders would be pilloried instead.

Is Armstrong deserving of this level of scrutiny and animosity? Absolutely. His behavior - both the PED use and particularly his attempts to suppress dissenting opinions - is reprehensible. Armstrong felt he was entitled to cheat and win at all costs, and took steps to actively financially and personally destroy his perceived enemies. Whether or not you agree with his cheating on the bike, his actions off the bike speak volumes about his character. I'm unsure how anyone can agree with what he's done off the bike to those who have dared to speak out.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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SpeedWay said:
Yes, it would exist.

No there wouldn't be the same number of posters. Unless, of course, there was someone they could "hate on" as much.

Thanks for starting an entertaining thread. All you need to know is which button to push and the puppet show starts.
Yet another troll admits he is a troll
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Archibald said:
clinic would exist, but it wouldn't be the constant sh*tfight over one particular doper that is currently is.
It may actually discuss what it's intended to, quite civiliy and rationally...
I agree. Armstrong does motivate otherwise intelligent people to suspend rational thought and suddenly believe in miracles and unicorns. Without the consent trolling the clinic would be a different place.
 
Mar 8, 2010
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Mr. Troll Radio, please tell us:
Have you got other things left in your vocabulary and mind than Armstrong, trolls, miracles, unicorns and BPC ?

Doesn't seem so. Time for a break.
 
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