Landa disrespects contador and Spain

[del1962]

I guess if the Spanish allowed a Basque vote on independence then they would have to allow a Catalan one aswell which if yes would be a major economic blow to Spain

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

Landa says he forgot all about it and apologizes. Is he being honest? Hope so.

To all the haters in this thread: waste your time with more positive things.

http://www.elmundo.es/deportes/2015/06/02/556e0aa846163f485b8b4585.html

I actually just went to read this article. Didn't understand much/any of it, then I ran it through Google translate and didn't get much wiser.

 

[sartoris]

Re:

I guess if the Spanish allowed a Basque vote on independence then they would have to allow a Catalan one aswell which if yes would be a major economic blow to Spain

It'd be a major blow for Cataluña and the Basque Country considering they sell most of their exports to the rest of Spain and will be automaticaly excluded from all the treaties and organizations Spain takes part in: European Union, NATO, etc... Not a realistic option for either region, but an ideal weapon to keep "blackmailing" the rest of the country.

 

[hrotha]

Yawn. Typical centralist fear-mongering.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Re: Re:

I'm not Basque.

Good for you.

Much of Spain denies Euskal Herria is a nation

That's because it isn't. Check google if you don't believe me.

just like you're doing, and hence doesn't respect it or its symbols.

No, you see, you're turning the attention to me when in reality the fact that you just created a fictitious country and legitimized its existence is what ought to be underlined with a WTF! In any other country you would be quickly labeled a looney tune if you said that people have to recognize the existence of a country that does not exist.

Yes, that's a perfectly good reason to repay the rest of Spain in like to make a point.

No it isn't. Euskal Herria is nothing but a cultural entity that now seeks to be recognized politically without going through the proper lawfully recognized channels. Do you want independence? Fine, let's all vote and see what happens. I've always said that the worst thing that could happen to Basque or Catalonian nationalists would be to find out that there are more Basque and Catalonian nationalists outside of the Basque Country and Catalonia than in them. Well, I wouldn't call them "nationalists" per se, more like "expulsionists," but the end result would be the same (both parts separate).

ETA isn't only exploited by the PP. No need to go further than the OP to see that card being played.

You're not answering my question, how is the political exploitation of a terrorist group, by whomever, reason enough for someone to get up one day and say "you know what? I f*cking hate their guts!".

All nations are, to varrying degrees, fictions.

A nation doesn't have to be a political state reality, where ethnic, linguisitc and other cultural parameters more than suffice to legitimize the status. The case of Palestine is only the most glaring instance of this. The Basques, not being of Indo-European stock, certainly have more legitimacy to their cause than say do the northern Italians of mythical Padania. Italy has only existed since 1861, while the borders changed after the World Wars. There is a part of northern Italy, though, represented in the Lega Nord political party that doesn't want to be considered Italian, tracing its roots back to non-Italic celtic origins to "legitimize" its cause. The genealogical continuity the claim makes, however, doesn't exist, since the moment the Romans Latinized the region over 2000 years ago Padana is simply modern Nibelungen poli-trash.

I don't think you consider, or even recognize, the cultural roots of Basque identity, which are more powerful identity markers, than any historical legacy of national status.

At any rate, seems pretty normal given the level of conflict between Spain and the Basques, that Landa would not take his hat off during Spain's national anthem.

I love to argue with the lega nord folks...one could say i used to love trolling them.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

I've made it clear it is my interpretation. You have said that they are granted privileges over and above the rest of Spain and moan about it. Seems privileged ingrates is a perfectly acceptable assumption.

It is an assumption until you ask for clarification. I clarified to you that my comment was not going in the direction you assumed it was going to, and you're still stubbornly saying that you made a "perfectly acceptable assumption". LOL.

Seems a perfectly reasonable assumption on my part.

TAKE TWO: there is a difference between Basques enjoying a privileged fiscal system (which is what I said) and Basques being "privileged ingrates" (which is what you said).

What part of this did you not understand?

And what are the logistics of that? Is it actually possible for the Basques to do or is it akin to saying "prove rider X doesn't dope"?

With ETA around? Impossible. If ETA disappears, FOR GOOD, I can honestly see it happening within 10-15 years.

Quote a big assumption. Every single English person I spoke to about the issue said they would prefer to see Scotland stay. Again, nothing to back up your claim that MORE people in England would back Scottish independence than in Scotland.

I have no idea how you could not understand this statement

No offense but... you write like a 10 year-old kid who's watched one too many political debates.

That depends. If they said they could understand how the Nazi party rose to power in a Germany that was, probably unfairly, crippled by the Treaty of Versailles, which allowed Hitler to push through ideological politics in a way that would probably not have been possible otherwise then I would say yes. That's a pretty neutral view as I already have a decent background knowledge of both WW1, WW2 and the surrounding periods. This could be encompassed by "I understand why the Nazis are upset" particularly if it was said at the time. But this still relies on me having a working knowledge of this period of world history and is a very poor example as I would wager every single person reading this thread possesses a fairly large knowledge base in that case.

"Probably unfairly"? That's as neutral as it gets.

As I have pointed out, in this case I have very little knowledge so I am relying on the posters in the thread to make their case. Hrotha's case appears much more balanced and less angry so from the point of view of a neutral observer with little to no background knowledge, it is the view I would be more likely to take and suggesting that your posts and satoris' posts strengthen that position is not "clinically insane".

What makes you think I care about what you think? I don't. Grow up.

I'm not trying to make a case, I made my case.

And you've failed. Resorting to insults and bringing up Nazis. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, clearly that was ill-advised.

I just handed your a$$ back to you in a silver platter and gave you a chance to get out of the discussion unscathed and you stubbornly keep coming back giving out certificates of trustworthiness as though your opinion matters to me. Guess what, it doesn't.

Grow up.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

I'm not Basque.

Good for you.

Much of Spain denies Euskal Herria is a nation

That's because it isn't. Check google if you don't believe me.

just like you're doing, and hence doesn't respect it or its symbols.

No, you see, you're turning the attention to me when in reality the fact that you just created a fictitious country and legitimized its existence is what ought to be underlined with a WTF! In any other country you would be quickly labeled a looney tune if you said that people have to recognize the existence of a country that does not exist.

Yes, that's a perfectly good reason to repay the rest of Spain in like to make a point.

No it isn't. Euskal Herria is nothing but a cultural entity that now seeks to be recognized politically without going through the proper lawfully recognized channels. Do you want independence? Fine, let's all vote and see what happens. I've always said that the worst thing that could happen to Basque or Catalonian nationalists would be to find out that there are more Basque and Catalonian nationalists outside of the Basque Country and Catalonia than in them. Well, I wouldn't call them "nationalists" per se, more like "expulsionists," but the end result would be the same (both parts separate).

ETA isn't only exploited by the PP. No need to go further than the OP to see that card being played.

You're not answering my question, how is the political exploitation of a terrorist group, by whomever, reason enough for someone to get up one day and say "you know what? I f*cking hate their guts!".

So what you're saying is that you are losing your head over someone's non violent expression of their opinion because you simply disagree? It all becomes clear now.

No, what I'm saying is that they do have a right to secede conditionally if: 1) They acknowledge Spanish Law and seek to modify its constitution via legal means and 2) Once a referendum is carried out, 55% of all Basques back seceding from Spain.

What I can't tolerate is the frigging "genuine grievances" BS story. So I try to expose them as soon as I see someone throwing it out there to unsuspecting recipients.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

I must say that I noticed he didn't seem to respect his own flag. I was thinking 'isn't he Spanish'. Oh well not for this forum I think.

But the point is more that if it is a deliberate gesture, the chances are that he doesn't consider it his own flag.

At the 2013 Giro stage winners were given large national flags to wave on the podium. Beñat Intxausti refused to carry or wave the Spanish flag and instead just went through with a normal, non-nationalistic podium ceremony. Did anybody say anything then? I can't remember much furore.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re:

Yawn. Typical centralist fear-mongering.

Not really. It's been shown that back when Ibarretxe carried out its Plan of Secession, a rather large % of Basque companies had already carried out contingency plans to move operations south of the border.

Same with Catalonia. The other day, Mas received a rather nasty letter from a conglomerate of business owners who insisted that the current situation was "unsustainable".

And hey weren't talking about secession if you catch my drift.

 

[hrotha]

That's not what I was getting at.

Independence (or any change to the status quo) would breed instability. Chances are the financial situation would deteriorate to some extent in the immediate aftermath of a declaration of independence, but I don't think "bankers and big business are conservative and get outrageously involved in politics" is something that should be celebrated, much less weaponized.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

I'm not Basque.

Good for you.

Much of Spain denies Euskal Herria is a nation

That's because it isn't. Check google if you don't believe me.

just like you're doing, and hence doesn't respect it or its symbols.

No, you see, you're turning the attention to me when in reality the fact that you just created a fictitious country and legitimized its existence is what ought to be underlined with a WTF! In any other country you would be quickly labeled a looney tune if you said that people have to recognize the existence of a country that does not exist.

Yes, that's a perfectly good reason to repay the rest of Spain in like to make a point.

No it isn't. Euskal Herria is nothing but a cultural entity that now seeks to be recognized politically without going through the proper lawfully recognized channels. Do you want independence? Fine, let's all vote and see what happens. I've always said that the worst thing that could happen to Basque or Catalonian nationalists would be to find out that there are more Basque and Catalonian nationalists outside of the Basque Country and Catalonia than in them. Well, I wouldn't call them "nationalists" per se, more like "expulsionists," but the end result would be the same (both parts separate).

ETA isn't only exploited by the PP. No need to go further than the OP to see that card being played.

You're not answering my question, how is the political exploitation of a terrorist group, by whomever, reason enough for someone to get up one day and say "you know what? I f*cking hate their guts!".

All nations are, to varrying degrees, fictions.

A nation doesn't have to be a political state reality, where ethnic, linguisitc and other cultural parameters more than suffice to legitimize the status. The case of Palestine is only the most glaring instance of this. The Basques, not being of Indo-European stock, certainly have more legitimacy to their cause than say do the northern Italians of mythical Padania. Italy has only existed since 1861, while the borders changed after the World Wars. There is a part of northern Italy, though, represented in the Lega Nord political party that doesn't want to be considered Italian, tracing its roots back to non-Italic celtic origins to "legitimize" its cause. The genealogical continuity the claim makes, however, doesn't exist, since the moment the Romans Latinized the region over 2000 years ago Padana is simply modern Nibelungen poli-trash.

I don't think you consider, or even recognize, the cultural roots of Basque identity, which are more powerful identity markers, than any historical legacy of national status.

At any rate, seems pretty normal given the level of conflict between Spain and the Basques, that Landa would not take his hat off during Spain's national anthem.

Spain is a territory, Basques are a people. How can a territory, of which Basques are sovereigns citizens of by the way, be in a "conflict" with people? The only conflict is between 33% of nationalist pro-independence Basques, who do not understand that they do not have a right to secede 100% of their territory, and a government that requires that the rule of law be followed by all. Applying the law, in its strictest way, is not a conflict.

Apart from that, I agree to the fact that nations are fictions. Now there are nation-states, which are ruled by laws, where people are free to do as they please, be of any religion, culture or speak any language, where they can live and thrive; and there are pseudo-states for people X who speak language Y and are of religion Z. The later being an entirely different matter.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re:

That's not what I was getting at.

Independence (or any change to the status quo) would breed instability. Chances are the financial situation would deteriorate to some extent in the immediate aftermath of a declaration of independence, but I don't think "bankers and big business are conservative and get outrageously involved in politics" is something that should be celebrated, much less weaponized.

Of course not. People have a right to secede whenever they want. And companies have a right to set up shop or move to wherever and whenever they want. It's democracy.

The Catalan Business Bureau telling Mas that he is making a huge mistake is a blessing in disguise. It would be really dumb for the Spanish secession brigade to think that companies will forgo the opportunity, stability and access to the Spanish and European markets for the unknown.

This is precisely what happened in Scotland. A lot of bagpipes... Sean Connery showing up all painted up like Mel Gibson in Braveheart... Murray giving his blessing... polls showing a pro-independence majority until the very last minute and... in the end everyone bitched out of secession like a bunch of pussies. Same in Quebec. Who are they kidding?

 

[ferryman]

Re: Re:

This is precisely what happened in Scotland. A lot of bagpipes... Sean Connery showing up all painted up like Mel Gibson in Braveheart... Murray giving his blessing... polls showing a pro-independence majority until the very last minute and... in the end everyone bitched out of secession like a bunch of pussies. Same in Quebec. Who are they kidding?[/quote]
Cheech, your passion is evident. Why don't you bring it to the cycling forums? I'll assume you weren't a fan of the guys in Orange Do you follow cycling?

And, leave your Scottish stereotype pish out of it, as you obviously know diddly squat about what happened here and what has since happened.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

Cheech, your passion is evident. Why don't you bring it to the cycling forums? I'll assume you weren't a fan of the guys in Orange Do you follow cycling?

And, leave your Scottish stereotype pish out of it, as you obviously know diddly squat about what happened here and what has since happened.

What? The Scottish referendum was E.V.E.R.Y.W.H.E.R.E. Even if you didn't know about the Scottish referendum, or weren't interested in it, you ended up knowing about the Scottish referendum.

In my personal opinion I take two things from it: 1) The English want you out; and 2) when it came time to put their cocks on the chopping block (proverbially speaking,) Scots choked.

And that is precisely my point when it comes to Basques + Catalonia: We've seen how these flagrant exercises of phallic waving end. There's nothing democratic about allowing 30% of the population to carry out a referendum that will show they only have 30% of the vote. And, IMO, the money spent amending constitutions (legal costs) + carrying out referendums, is money that could be spent in more important things like fixing roads or making sure hospitals have state-of-the-art equipment or retirees have decent pensions, et cetera.

 

[gunara]

Re: Re:

I must say that I noticed he didn't seem to respect his own flag. I was thinking 'isn't he Spanish'. Oh well not for this forum I think.

But the point is more that if it is a deliberate gesture, the chances are that he doesn't consider it his own flag.

At the 2013 Giro stage winners were given large national flags to wave on the podium. Beñat Intxausti refused to carry or wave the Spanish flag and instead just went through with a normal, non-nationalistic podium ceremony. Did anybody say anything then? I can't remember much furore.

Interesting, thanks for the reminder, LS. So where does the furore come from now? Because it was not Landa's celebration time? So - unlike Benat's right to chose - he seen by some as ruining someone else's party? Which I don't know wheher Contador himself noticed and was bothered.

 

[sienna]

I guess I'll have to sell my Orbea bikes as a protest to Landa's scumbag act. How dare he disrespect the Great One. And Spain of course. Oops, disregard the last bit - they voted for Blatter.

 

[The_Cheech]

I guess I'll have to sell my Orbea bikes as a protest to Landa's scumbag act. How dare he disrespect the Great One. And Spain of course. Oops, disregard the last bit - they voted for Blatter.

Why buy Orbea when you can buy better and cheaper options?

 

[sienna]

I guess I'll have to sell my Orbea bikes as a protest to Landa's scumbag act. How dare he disrespect the Great One. And Spain of course. Oops, disregard the last bit - they voted for Blatter.

Why buy Orbea when you can buy better and cheaper options?

Like a Giant? I like my Orca and I know someone.