Landa disrespects contador and Spain

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

Not really. Legally, there's little room for an actual referendum without changing the Spanish constitution first, which would require a separate Spain-wide referendum. Besides, Scotland could try because the United Kingdom allowed them to. No Spanish government would do the same, as it would be political suicide.

To be fair the UK Government didn't have a choice really as the SNP comfortably held power in the Scottish Parliament, voted in with a manifesto that included a vote on Independence. Incidentally, Spain was one of the countries that came out and spoke very strongly against Scotland gaining independence with the Basque 'problem' in mind.

See, Scotland is different because it was its own independent nation at one point, so there is a political, emotional and cultural basis for it. Not economic though. Everyone pulls out once they realize what can truly happen to their money after independence.

The Basque Country was nothing but a bunch of territories that shared nothing but a similar language, ancient "laws" (in reality all they were were grants by a king not to pay certain taxes, not to be confused with the right of suffrage, freedom of speech, right to trial by jury, et cetera, the fueros were largely all about MONEY! Which the Basque know as their "rights") and then, once Sabino Arana Goiri had The Dream back in the 1800's, decided to be independent.

In reality, the origins of Basque nationalism are as racist and vomit-inducing as anyone can conjure up.

Just look at Sabino's writings and let me know what you think. The guy has a statue in Bilbao and is literally venerated by legions of Basques TODAY.

 

[sartoris]

Re: Re:

The Basque Country has never been a nation, hence they never had a Basque "nationality" per se. There is a cultural reality that crosses borders into other Spanish Comunidades Autónomas, and even other countries, that can be mistaken with identity, but the reality of it is that the "national identity" that the Basques refer to was created by Sabino Arana Goiri in his garden some time in the middle 1800s.

The use of ETA was political in nature.

So... me telling you that your state has never been a nation and that it's the PP that uses ETA for their political purposes is reason enough (or a "grievance") for Basques to be pissed at the WHOLE of Spain?

Do you have any idea how absurd you sound?

I'm not Basque.

Much of Spain denies Euskal Herria is a nation, just like you're doing, and hence doesn't respect it or its symbols. Yes, that's a perfectly good reason to repay the rest of Spain in like to make a point.

ETA isn't only exploited by the PP. No need to go further than the OP to see that card being played.

MODS: please move thread if you think this is going out of hand. It wasn't my intention when I started it. Again, all my respects to the personal feelings of Landa. He can hate Spain as much as he likes but he should have removed his cap while the Spanish anthem was playing very much like Aru, an Italian, did, even if it was OUT OF RESPECT for the winner of the Giro


As fot you, HROTHA, Don't confound the forumites, dude. I'm Spanish as well and your comment is a lie and you know it. Most Spanish, I included, respect and feel proud of the cultural richness and diversity of our regions. Your comment "ETA is only exploited by the PP (Popular Party)" is DISGUSTING. How many members of the Popular Party have been murdered in cold blood by the Basques of ETA on the only ground of their holding different political views? Tell all the forumites. I'm sure you know the answer.
Tell also all the forumites why the Vuelta a Espana couldn't go through the Basque roads until recently. Most Spanish people, and any good natured human being for that matter, will consider your above comment as CONTEMPTIBLE.

Maybe you're too young to remember this cycling "INCIDENT" in Álava (Basque Country). Well, unfortunately it touched me really close. I'll stop it here. Don't get me going and think twice about writing such garbage again. Please.

http://elpais.com/diario/1980/10/05/portada/339548404_850215.html

Peace.

 

[phanatic]

Poor Bertie. He gets another country's anthem one year. Another year, I read it was an old - out of favor? - anthem. And now Landa shows him up here.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

It's not comparable with Aru's reaction, as Italy has no real grievances against Spain. When/if those grievances are resolved, the most radical Basque nationalists will most likely take off their caps without second thought.

I don't think he disrespected Contador, either. It had zero impact on Contador's moment on the podium.

What "grievances" are you talking about? LOL.

The only grievance Basques ought to have is that they enjoy fiscal privileges worthy of, and granted by, a king. A successor of whom they now publicly boo and denounce like a bunch of pussies (even though he actually goes out of his way to speak Basque too).

In cycling, as in anything in life, honor and respect DO COUNT. Hence what Landa did is wrong. Under no circumstances should he have kept his hat on. F*cking PERIOD.

I find this comment about how respects counts pretty funny considering your behaviour in the rest of this thread, where you don't seem to be showing much respect to another man's opinion.

"SO, it shouldn't come as a surprise that someone like Landa, who hails from such a peace-loving part of the world, would be f*cking polite enough to take his hat off."

 

[RedheadDane]

Maybe he simply forgot.
Maybe the statement he was making was that he doesn't think you should have to remove your hat to show respect.
Maybe he's an anti-nationalist and doesn't believe in national anthems of any kind.

Problem is that since it was a Spanish guy who won, and a Basque guy who didn't remove his hat it's easy to read is as some sort of Anti Spain political statement. However, we don't know how Landa would've acted if it had been Aru who had won (or Porte or Uran, if they'd had a bit more luck).

 

[hrotha]

I think The Cheech and sartoris are making my point pretty effectively for the neutral observers out there.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I think people living in countries without strong regionalist ideas/parties will always have trouble understanding this kind of commotion.

I do not agree with it, because I think it's silly, but I do understand.

 

[robertocarlos]

It isn't that hard to understand as discrimination and racism exist everywhere. For me cycling has opened a different view to Europe than what I had when I was younger (to be honest I never really cared for most of Europe) and to be honest I am amazed that it can exist as a cohesive economical entity, but be so fragmented. I have to wonder what would have happened had Franco been a little more tolerant of the other cultures/peoples that formed Spain? If they want to become independent Spain should let them, it is not like the U.S.A. Is giving California its independence. As for the posters indicating that the Basque region was never a country, well Italy and Greece never were countries until the last century.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re:

I think The Cheech and sartoris are making my point pretty effectively for the neutral observers out there.

Coo coo.

Clinically insane.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Happened before.

 

[robertocarlos]

Completely different

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I think The Cheech and sartoris are making my point pretty effectively for the neutral observers out there.

Coo coo.

Clinically insane.

It's really not. as someone who knows very little about the situation all I'm reading is one guy saying that Basques have some basis to complain and two other guys, you in particular, saying they are a bunch of privileged ingrates who don't know they are born (or words to that effect) and backing it up with statements that don't actually reference anything to prove them. I currently have about 7 tabs open to read about it, but on impressions in this thread it's hard not to side with the guy who seems fairly level and calm, rather than the two guys insulting a whole "nation" of people.

 

[python]

this entire thread shows how a relatively small issue (hat on), moreover, the significance of which can not be interpreted as a deliberate protest with a100% certainty, how emotional and divisive it can become...

that said, an argument that the basque region was never a country is plain silly, lmo...that's at best an example of a circular logic.

nationalism is a river or a creek, it flows and ebbs at random. sometimes it dries out or merges with other creeks to become a life-giving amazon or nile.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re:

I have to wonder what would have happened had Franco been a little more tolerant of the other cultures/peoples that formed Spain? If they want to become independent Spain should let them, it is not like the U.S.A. Is giving California its independence. As for the posters indicating that the Basque region was never a country, well Italy and Greece never were countries until the last century.

Franco isn't or wasn't Spain or its symbols. How their hate for Franco was been redirected toward ANYTHING that has to do with Spain is beyond me. EVERYONE in Spain suffered with Franco, not just Basques. My parents still talk about that period as a black hole in our history. He banned any and all public gatherings, be it fiestas or sports competitions or anything else. Nothing. You got up, went to church, went to your low-paying job, went to lunch, went back to work and then went home. That was daily life for the inmense majority of Spaniards for 40 years. Deviating from the norm would earn you the unwanted attention of the Guardia Civil, which meant you were getting whipped.

And yes, I, like most Spaniards, would like to see constitutional reform so that things can change. But there is a protocol for that change. Much like in other countries, like the USA, where (for example) the Alaskan Independence Party was welcomed by the US President, who politely informed them that Alaska isn't going anywhere and asked them to desist and learn to coexist with the other 49 states.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

It's really not. as someone who knows very little about the situation all I'm reading is one guy saying that Basques have some basis to complain and two other guys, you in particular, saying they are a bunch of privileged ingrates

I haven't said such a thing. What I said was that their grievances, or the basis of, are built on nothing but lies. Basques have one of the highest standards of living in the world, primarily because they get to enjoy fiscal privileges granted to them by an undemocratic figure (the king) and secondly because the Basque companies get to sell their products to a large market of 30+ people virtually undisturbed, with very little competition because of tariffs imposed on products coming from the outside of the country.

I know that many Basques TODAY want independence, and I understand that too. But let's not forget that there is a democratically voted on constitution that has a protocol in place to allow such a thing to happen. They know what they need to do to become independent. And walking arounf forcing things is not going to accomplish anything but irritate the rest of Spaniards.

who don't know they are born (or words to that effect) and backing it up with statements that don't actually reference anything to prove them. I currently have about 7 tabs open to read about it, but on impressions in this thread it's hard not to side with the guy who seems fairly level and calm, rather than the two guys insulting a whole "nation" of people.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in the above paragraph.

 

[The_Cheech]

What I find terribly disturbing, historically disturbing that is, is that person X saying that he wants his state to become independent because of Y and, when faced with the reality that Y is nothing but a myth, decides to kill the messenger.

Well, you know what? Grow up, walk it off.

 

[hrotha]

X says they want independence because of Y, namely, that they're their own nation that doesn't feel represented or comfortable within the broader state of Spain due to a variety of cultural and political reasons, economic plundering not typically being one of them.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re:

that said, an argument that the basque region was never a country is plain silly

Ok then, point to me the time period when the Basque Country was an independent nation.

Please do!

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

that said, an argument that the basque region was never a country is plain silly

Ok then, point to me the time period when the Basque Country was an independent nation.

Please do!

It's plain silly because it's irrelevant. Like duh.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

that said, an argument that the basque region was never a country is plain silly

Ok then, point to me the time period when the Basque Country was an independent nation.

Please do!

It's plain silly because it's irrelevant. Like duh.

No, it's silly because the Basque Country has never been a nation or a country.

THAT is what's "silly".

 

[The_Cheech]

Re:

X says they want independence because of Y, namely, that they're their own nation that doesn't feel represented or comfortable within the broader state of Spain due to a variety of cultural and political reasons, economic plundering not typically being one of them.

No, Basques are not a nation, they are a group of people with cultural affinity and now political aspirations to become an independent nation. If you just leave it at that, I’m sold. I agree. Go for it!

Now, if you start ranting about how repressive the central government is, how culturally and socially suffocating the rest of Spaniards are, that’s where I draw the line buddy!

1. For once, what can be more freaking suffocating than an ingrown terrorist group that kills its own citizens?

2. If Basques are so fed up with the central government, why is their absenteeism % lower than in many other autonomous communities?

3. If the Basque economy is being literally “plundered,” why are they one of the richest communities in Spain with its own fiscal privileges?

Like a deck of cards.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

What "grievances" are you talking about? LOL.

The only grievance Basques ought to have is that they enjoy fiscal privileges worthy of, and granted by, a king. A successor of whom they now publicly boo and denounce like a bunch of pussies (even though he actually goes out of his way to speak Basque too).

Your inability to so much as acknowledge those grievances perfectly illustrates why Landa had good reason not to take his cap off.

No, he had no reason. The guy showed he has no class at all! They've not played that anthem because of him, but for the Giro champion Alberto Contador, and he should of payed respect to him at least.

He feels Spain is not his country, ok, but his gesture would be appropriate ONLY if he was the winner and anthem is played in his honor. This way he only showed that he has no respect for anybody. CLASSLESS!

I'm guessing/hoping he forgot. He was very pissed off at his team and he was probably completely out of sorts. If that's the case I feel for Landa and this whole thing was blown up out of proportion. I'm guessing if that's the case he has no easy way to extricate himself from the ensuing mess and he's probably rightly pissed at the way the "incident" was handled by the Spanish (maybe what he considers to be his own country's) media.

If not I'd agree with this -you want to make a political statement, ask that the anthem not be played if you win. Or wave a Basque flag around at any point. But if you're on the podium you're unnecessarily distracting from Contador's moment by disrespecting his anthem. Not cool, IMHO, unless you really think Spain is somehow a truly disgusting country unworthy of any respect and in that case you should have no problem making your opinions clear.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

It's really not. as someone who knows very little about the situation all I'm reading is one guy saying that Basques have some basis to complain and two other guys, you in particular, saying they are a bunch of privileged ingrates

I haven't said such a thing. What I said was that their grievances, or the basis of, are built on nothing but lies. Basques have one of the highest standards of living in the world, primarily because they get to enjoy fiscal privileges granted to them by an undemocratic figure (the king) and secondly because the Basque companies get to sell their products to a large market of 30+ people virtually undisturbed, with very little competition because of tariffs imposed on products coming from the outside of the country.

Your assertion that they enjoy fiscal privileges over and above the rest of Spain granted undemocratically yet still want independence as they feel they are "suppressed" (my word) is what lead me to that comment and I stand buy it. Maybe they are, as I said I really know very little about the situation, but you've not offered any evidence to support this so either you expect readers to take you at your word or go and dig it out themselves which is obviously unlikely.

I know that many Basques TODAY want independence, and I understand that too. But let's not forget that there is a democratically voted on constitution that has a protocol in place to allow such a thing to happen. They know what they need to do to become independent. And walking arounf forcing things is not going to accomplish anything but irritate the rest of Spaniards.

Laws change, many of them not quickly enough. Were there protests about the 1978 constitution? Did the Basques feel they had things forced on them because they are a minority in Spain? Again, you assert that there is a process but maybe just giving a brief outline of what it is (majority referendum in the whole of Spain? Just in Basque regions? etc.) would help your arguments. For all I know they could require a majority in all of Spain which will never happen, so suggesting they know what they need to do when it is unachievable is like requesting someone prove a negative.


If the rest of Spain are getting annoyed with the Basque region and view them as being given benefits the rest of Spain do not receive, why would the rest of Spain not allow them to go their own way?

who don't know they are born (or words to that effect) and backing it up with statements that don't actually reference anything to prove them. I currently have about 7 tabs open to read about it, but on impressions in this thread it's hard not to side with the guy who seems fairly level and calm, rather than the two guys insulting a whole "nation" of people.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in the above paragraph.

I'll expand. I have several internet pages open to try and educate myself, but disseminating the pertinent information to this situation from hundreds of years of Spanish history is difficult so I can only really rely on how arguments are put forward in this thread.

Hrotha appears level headed and not to be taking sides, just pointing out that many Basques feel they are having their identity eroded and wish to be independent from Spain. This is easily backed up just by watching the news over the last couple of decades and hearing about the Basque separatists.

Yourself and other posters seem to be taking the side that I outlaid before. The Basques enjoy privileges they should be grateful for to the rest of Spain, they have no national identity and they have no real grievance. This is not backed up with anything someone could actually check unless they go digging for it themselves. Basques clearly do feel they have a national identity, the rest I do not know about and would struggle to properly find this information.


Based on this thread alone I would say the only view I could logically take is the view of the person who is not taking a side, but purely pointing out what is obvious to outsiders, that there are obviously many Basques who wish to be separate from Spain.

 

[Netserk]

@The_Cheech

na·tion
ˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: nation; plural noun: nations

a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

Your assertion that they enjoy fiscal privileges over and above the rest of Spain granted undemocratically yet still want independence as they feel they are "suppressed" (my word) is what lead me to that comment and I stand buy it. Maybe they are, as I said I really know very little about the situation, but you've not offered any evidence to support this so either you expect readers to take you at your word or go and dig it out themselves which is obviously unlikely.

First of all, it's "I stand by it". Secondly, there is a difference between Basques enjoying a privileged fiscal system (which is what I said) and Basques being "privileged ingrates" (which is what you said).

Laws change, many of them not quickly enough. Were there protests about the 1978 constitution? Did the Basques feel they had things forced on them because they are a minority in Spain? Again, you assert that there is a process but maybe just giving a brief outline of what it is (majority referendum in the whole of Spain? Just in Basque regions? etc.) would help your arguments. For all I know they could require a majority in all of Spain which will never happen, so suggesting they know what they need to do when it is unachievable is like requesting someone prove a negative.

I've already said it: Push through the constitutional amendment and let's vote. If you don't care about what the other Spaniards have to say about it, let Basques vote and let the chips fall where they may. Either way, I don't care.

If the rest of Spain are getting annoyed with the Basque region and view them as being given benefits the rest of Spain do not receive, why would the rest of Spain not allow them to go their own way?

Because we can't vote on it. Like I said, if there's ever a country-wide referendum on the matter, the independists are going to be mighty surprised by the amount of votes they are going to collect outside of their communities. Kind of like what happened in the UK with Scotland: The are more pro-independence potential voters in England than in Scotland.

I'll expand. I have several internet pages open to try and educate myself, but disseminating the pertinent information to this situation from hundreds of years of Spanish history is difficult so I can only really rely on how arguments are put forward in this thread.

What?

Hrotha appears level headed and not to be taking sides

He just said he understands their grivances! What in the world are you reading? If someone said "yeah, I understand why Nazis are upset"... would you call that neutral?

just pointing out that many Basques feel they are having their identity eroded

How do you "erode" identity? Furthermore, how are the rest of Spaniards, who I suspect are the perpetrators of that "erosion," to blame? LOL. This is insanity.

and wish to be independent from Spain. This is easily backed up just by watching the news over the last couple of decades and hearing about the Basque separatists.

Basque independence is back by only 33% of the voting population. That's 1 of every 3 Basques. And this is from the Euskobarometro, not some central government entity.

Yourself and other posters seem to be taking the side that I outlaid before. The Basques enjoy privileges they should be grateful for to the rest of Spain, they have no national identity and they have no real grievance. This is not backed up with anything someone could actually check unless they go digging for it themselves. Basques clearly do feel they have a national identity, the rest I do not know about and would struggle to properly find this information.

That's not true, it CAN be checked: The Basque Country has never been a country or a nation. The national identity you are referring to began with Sabino Arana Goiri in the mid 1800s. It's a myth.

NOW, I do understand they want independence, and I will not oppose them leaving (in fact, I will support,) but please, spare me the BS that accompanys the whining.

Based on this thread alone I would say the only view I could logically take is the view of the person who is not taking a side, but purely pointing out what is obvious to outsiders, that there are obviously many Basques who wish to be separate from Spain.

I'm not asking you to take sides, in fact I DON'T CARE what you think. You are the one who butted in.