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Landa disrespects contador and Spain

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May 12, 2015
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Netserk said:
@The_Cheech

na·tion
ˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: nation; plural noun: nations

a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

Basques do not have a "common" history: Just to give you an example, during the Spanish Civil War, Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa sided with the Republicans and the Navarrans sided with Franco (French Basques didn't and still don't give a sh*t either way). The majority of modern Spanish Basques are descendants of immigrants from other parts of Spain. Language-wise, all the Basque dialects are different. It wasn't until the PNV party literally invented Euskera Batua that the language acquired SOME homogeinity.

And this is just the begining. I could keep going for ages.

And all of this because ONE THIRD want independence.
 
Re: Re:

The_Cheech said:
King Boonen said:
Your assertion that they enjoy fiscal privileges over and above the rest of Spain granted undemocratically yet still want independence as they feel they are "suppressed" (my word) is what lead me to that comment and I stand buy it. Maybe they are, as I said I really know very little about the situation, but you've not offered any evidence to support this so either you expect readers to take you at your word or go and dig it out themselves which is obviously unlikely.

First of all, it's "I stand by it". Secondly, there is a difference between Basques enjoying a privileged fiscal system (which is what I said) and Basques being "privileged ingrates" (which is what you said).

Correcting English. Brilliant. I'll tell my auto-correct and hopefully it will be suitably chastised.

I've made it clear it is my interpretation. You have said that they are granted privileges over and above the rest of Spain and moan about it. Seems privileged ingrates is a perfectly acceptable assumption. In fact, this is exactly what you said:

What "grievances" are you talking about? LOL.

The only grievance Basques ought to have is that they enjoy fiscal privileges worthy of, and granted by, a king. A successor of whom they now publicly boo and denounce like a bunch of pussies (even though he actually goes out of his way to speak Basque too).

Seems a perfectly reasonable assumption on my part.


Laws change, many of them not quickly enough. Were there protests about the 1978 constitution? Did the Basques feel they had things forced on them because they are a minority in Spain? Again, you assert that there is a process but maybe just giving a brief outline of what it is (majority referendum in the whole of Spain? Just in Basque regions? etc.) would help your arguments. For all I know they could require a majority in all of Spain which will never happen, so suggesting they know what they need to do when it is unachievable is like requesting someone prove a negative.

I've already said it: Push through the constitutional amendment and let's vote. If you don't care about what the other Spaniards have to say about it, let Basques vote and let the chips fall where they may. Either way, I don't care.

And what are the logistics of that? Is it actually possible for the Basques to do or is it akin to saying "prove rider X doesn't dope"?

If the rest of Spain are getting annoyed with the Basque region and view them as being given benefits the rest of Spain do not receive, why would the rest of Spain not allow them to go their own way?

Because we can't vote on it. Like I said, if there's ever a country-wide referendum on the matter, the independists are going to be mighty surprised by the amount of votes they are going to collect outside of their communities. Kind of like what happened in the UK with Scotland: The are more pro-independence potential voters in England than in Scotland.

Independists isn't a word. Fun game isn't it?

Quote a big assumption. Every single English person I spoke to about the issue said they would prefer to see Scotland stay. Again, nothing to back up your claim that MORE people in England would back Scottish independence than in Scotland.


I'll expand. I have several internet pages open to try and educate myself, but disseminating the pertinent information to this situation from hundreds of years of Spanish history is difficult so I can only really rely on how arguments are put forward in this thread.

What?

I have no idea how you could not understand this statement.

Hrotha appears level headed and not to be taking sides

He just said he understands their grivances! What in the world are you reading? If someone said "yeah, I understand why Nazis are upset"... would you call that neutral?

That depends. If they said they could understand how the Nazi party rose to power in a Germany that was, probably unfairly, crippled by the Treaty of Versailles, which allowed Hitler to push through ideological politics in a way that would probably not have been possible otherwise then I would say yes. That's a pretty neutral view as I already have a decent background knowledge of both WW1, WW2 and the surrounding periods. This could be encompassed by "I understand why the Nazis are upset" particularly if it was said at the time. But this still relies on me having a working knowledge of this period of world history and is a very poor example as I would wager every single person reading this thread possesses a fairly large knowledge base in that case.

As I have pointed out, in this case I have very little knowledge so I am relying on the posters in the thread to make their case. Hrotha's case appears much more balanced and less angry so from the point of view of a neutral observer with little to no background knowledge, it is the view I would be more likely to take and suggesting that your posts and satoris' posts strengthen that position is not "clinically insane".

just pointing out that many Basques feel they are having their identity eroded

How do you "erode" identity? Furthermore, how are the rest of Spaniards, who I suspect are the perpetrators of that "erosion," to blame? LOL. This is insanity.

You'll notice the word feel is included in my sentence. I made no judgement on whether this is possible or happens, similarly like some people in the UK (as you love UK examples) would say they feel Britishness is currently being eroded (whatever that means or was in the first place).

and wish to be independent from Spain. This is easily backed up just by watching the news over the last couple of decades and hearing about the Basque separatists.

Basque independence is back by only 33% of the voting population. That's 1 of every 3 Basques. And this is from the Euskobarometro, not some central government entity.

You'll also notice in the quote about this that you have split I said many. 33% seems to be covered by this. I didn't claim a majority.


Yourself and other posters seem to be taking the side that I outlaid before. The Basques enjoy privileges they should be grateful for to the rest of Spain, they have no national identity and they have no real grievance. This is not backed up with anything someone could actually check unless they go digging for it themselves. Basques clearly do feel they have a national identity, the rest I do not know about and would struggle to properly find this information.

That's not true, it CAN be checked: The Basque Country has never been a country or a nation. The national identity you are referring to began with Sabino Arana Goiri in the mid 1800s. It's a myth.

NOW, I do understand they want independence, and I will not oppose them leaving (in fact, I will support,) but please, spare me the BS that accompanys the whining.

Others in this thread have pointed out that a national identity is not limited to nations in the sense we think of them now and that many nations that current existed have histories as short or shorter than the ideas of Sabino Arana but would claim a historical basis running much further back. You may no agree with it, but it's a perfectly valid position on what constituents a nation.

Based on this thread alone I would say the only view I could logically take is the view of the person who is not taking a side, but purely pointing out what is obvious to outsiders, that there are obviously many Basques who wish to be separate from Spain.

I'm not asking you to take sides, in fact I DON'T CARE what you think. You are the one who butted in.

I'm not taking sides, I coming from the point of a neutral observer and saying that of the arguments presented here I could only reasonably side with hrotha unless yourself or someone else arguing a similar position backed up what they said. This was aimed at keeping on topic with my very first point in this discussion, that hrothas view that yourself and satoris were making his point for him was not "clinically insane".

I pointed out that what hrotha said was not "Clinically insane". You continued the conversation. As for butting in, I'm guessing you don't know how internet discussion forums work. People read topics, reply and then reply to any replies and so on. If you don't wish to engage that person in conversation then you don't have to, but if you do, then turn round and accusing them of butting in, it looks pretty silly.


I apologise in advance for any errors in my spelling, sentence construction or grammar so you don't feel the need to point them out.
 
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The_Cheech said:
Language-wise, all the Basque dialects are different. It wasn't until the PNV party literally invented Euskera Batua that the language acquired SOME homogeinity.

Wait, wait, I don't know anything about the political situation so I'll refrain from an opinion on that one, but this statement shows little insight in how languages work, if I understand you correctly. Euskara Batua is Standard Basque right? Of course Standard Basque is invented, because every standard language is invented. Standard Spanish is invented as well. You know, a standard language is when a certain language has loads of different dialects and then some authority thinks it's a good idea if there is one standardized version of said language and then usually based on the most prominent dialect makes some standardized version of this language which is thus by nature artificial and invented. So unless I'm misunderstanding something, you're basically describing a process of standardization that has happened with loads of languages (e.g. English, German, French, Spanish, Mandarin, Korean, Swahili, Arabic) so I don't see how this is an argument that Basques aren't an aggregate of people that are united by a common language, considering the situation you describe, if I understand it correctly, happened with almost every language in Europe and many languages outside of Europe too.

Furthermore, if I'd be a Basque speaker I'd be proud of it you know. IIRC it is assumed that before the Roman Empire came along everybody on the Iberian Peninsula spoke some ancestor of Basque or some related language. After the Roman Empire conquered the area this language (or this language family) was slowly but steadily replaced by Latin (and later Spanish which descends from Latin) and now a couple of thousand years later there's one little fringe of the Iberian peninsula left where they still speak a descendant of their original language. This situation is unique in Europe and I think that's pretty epic and I'd be proud to speak it if I were a Basque.
 
It's very hard to take part in this debate or whatever it is, because you're constantly misreading what other people are saying or going in circles. For example, python said the argument that the Basque Country has never been independent is just plain silly, not because he claimed the Basque Country has, in fact, been independent before, but because it's completely irrelevant: many countries have never been independent until they were, and having an independent state is not a prerequisite for being a nation. There are many examples of this, contemporary like Kurdistan, and a gazillion if you look at it from a historical point of view: like every single country in the Balkans, or in the Americas, or in the Arab world.

As another example, you keep bringing up the concierto económico as if it invalidates any nationalist aspirations, when in actual fact Basque nationalism has never made a big deal of the financial issues and has always focused on political and cultural issues. When I pointed that out, you blatantly misread what I said and turned it around (Me: "they're their own nation that doesn't feel represented or comfortable within the broader state of Spain due to a variety of cultural and political reasons, economic plundering not typically being one of them"; You: "If the Basque economy is being literally “plundered,” why are they one of the richest communities in Spain with its own fiscal privileges?"). Since Basque nationalism isn't about economic issues, the fact that they're well off and rich by Spanish standards is absolutely irrelevant.

My point all along is that the Spanish, by and large, disrespect and disparage the Basque Country, its identity and its symbols, and that that alone might well be reason enough for them to want independence. You've countered that by saying... that they're not a nation (even though they are by any definition), that their language was made up (even though the process of coming up with a standard language to unify several dialects is historically quite common, as Italian and Hebrew, to name but two examples, may attest), that they don't have a common history (because they were split into two separate sides in a, huh, civil war), that Basque nationalism has no real reason to exist, since it's based solely on the myths invented by Sabino Arana, a Nazi (he was a racist, of course; but Basque nationalism outgrew him ages ago). And all of this, while playing the ETA card, as if the methods used by ETA somehow invalidated the goals of nationalism at large. All in all, you're doing a very good job of illustrating exactly what I was getting at, and why many Basques don't want anything to do with Spain, since the average Spaniard clearly has no respect for them as a people.

Incidentally, I don't think it matters whether most Basques want independence or not: those who do are still entitled to make political statements and to try to get the others on their side. But, since you said the Euskobarómetro says only ONE THIRD want independence, let's set the record straight:
http://www.ehu.eus/documents/1457190/1525260/Euskobarometro+Noviembre+2014
That's the most recent one. Here's a news article about it. True, only 35% say they'd vote Yes on an independence referendum, but what you're not mentioning is that only 34% say they'd vote No. The rest are undecided or would abstain.

PS: This post is for the benefit of neutral observers who might be misled by some things that are being said in this thread, rather than for the benefit of Cheech.
 
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I've made it clear it is my interpretation. You have said that they are granted privileges over and above the rest of Spain and moan about it. Seems privileged ingrates is a perfectly acceptable assumption.

It is an assumption until you ask for clarification. I clarified to you that my comment was not going in the direction you assumed it was going to, and you're still stubbornly saying that you made a "perfectly acceptable assumption". LOL.

Seems a perfectly reasonable assumption on my part.

TAKE TWO: there is a difference between Basques enjoying a privileged fiscal system (which is what I said) and Basques being "privileged ingrates" (which is what you said).

What part of this did you not understand?

And what are the logistics of that? Is it actually possible for the Basques to do or is it akin to saying "prove rider X doesn't dope"?

With ETA around? Impossible. If ETA disappears, FOR GOOD, I can honestly see it happening within 10-15 years.

Quote a big assumption. Every single English person I spoke to about the issue said they would prefer to see Scotland stay. Again, nothing to back up your claim that MORE people in England would back Scottish independence than in Scotland.

scottish_independence_poll-300x200.jpg


I have no idea how you could not understand this statement

No offense but... you write like a 10 year-old kid who's watched one too many political debates.

That depends. If they said they could understand how the Nazi party rose to power in a Germany that was, probably unfairly, crippled by the Treaty of Versailles, which allowed Hitler to push through ideological politics in a way that would probably not have been possible otherwise then I would say yes. That's a pretty neutral view as I already have a decent background knowledge of both WW1, WW2 and the surrounding periods. This could be encompassed by "I understand why the Nazis are upset" particularly if it was said at the time. But this still relies on me having a working knowledge of this period of world history and is a very poor example as I would wager every single person reading this thread possesses a fairly large knowledge base in that case.

"Probably unfairly"? That's as neutral as it gets.

As I have pointed out, in this case I have very little knowledge so I am relying on the posters in the thread to make their case. Hrotha's case appears much more balanced and less angry so from the point of view of a neutral observer with little to no background knowledge, it is the view I would be more likely to take and suggesting that your posts and satoris' posts strengthen that position is not "clinically insane".

What makes you think I care about what you think? I don't. Grow up.

I'm not trying to make a case, I made my case.
 
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Maaaaaaaarten said:
Wait, wait, I don't know anything about the political situation so I'll refrain from an opinion on that one, but this statement shows little insight in how languages work, if I understand you correctly. Euskara Batua is Standard Basque right? Of course Standard Basque is invented, because every standard language is invented. Standard Spanish is invented as well. You know, a standard language is when a certain language has loads of different dialects and then some authority thinks it's a good idea if there is one standardized version of said language and then usually based on the most prominent dialect makes some standardized version of this language which is thus by nature artificial and invented. So unless I'm misunderstanding something, you're basically describing a process of standardization that has happened with loads of languages (e.g. English, German, French, Spanish, Mandarin, Korean, Swahili, Arabic) so I don't see how this is an argument that Basques aren't an aggregate of people that are united by a common language, considering the situation you describe, if I understand it correctly, happened with almost every language in Europe and many languages outside of Europe too.

Furthermore, if I'd be a Basque speaker I'd be proud of it you know. IIRC it is assumed that before the Roman Empire came along everybody on the Iberian Peninsula spoke some ancestor of Basque or some related language. After the Roman Empire conquered the area this language (or this language family) was slowly but steadily replaced by Latin (and later Spanish which descends from Latin) and now a couple of thousand years later there's one little fringe of the Iberian peninsula left where they still speak a descendant of their original language. This situation is unique in Europe and I think that's pretty epic and I'd be proud to speak it if I were a Basque.

Wait, wait, I'm not saying that the creation of Euskera Batua was wrong, in fact I've always felt that the Basque dialects were a treasure in Spain and that Basque ought to be introduced in the school curriculums as an option.

What I'm calling out is the current obvious politization of the language.
 
Re:

The_Cheech said:
I've made it clear it is my interpretation. You have said that they are granted privileges over and above the rest of Spain and moan about it. Seems privileged ingrates is a perfectly acceptable assumption.

It is an assumption until you ask for clarification. I clarified to you that my comment was not going in the direction you assumed it was going to, and you're still stubbornly saying that you made a "perfectly acceptable assumption". LOL.

Seems a perfectly reasonable assumption on my part.

TAKE TWO: there is a difference between Basques enjoying a privileged fiscal system (which is what I said) and Basques being "privileged ingrates" (which is what you said).

What part of this did you not understand?

And what are the logistics of that? Is it actually possible for the Basques to do or is it akin to saying "prove rider X doesn't dope"?

With ETA around? Impossible. If ETA disappears, FOR GOOD, I can honestly see it happening within 10-15 years.

Quote a big assumption. Every single English person I spoke to about the issue said they would prefer to see Scotland stay. Again, nothing to back up your claim that MORE people in England would back Scottish independence than in Scotland.

scottish_independence_poll-300x200.jpg


I have no idea how you could not understand this statement

No offense but... you write like a 10 year-old kid who's watched one too many political debates.

That depends. If they said they could understand how the Nazi party rose to power in a Germany that was, probably unfairly, crippled by the Treaty of Versailles, which allowed Hitler to push through ideological politics in a way that would probably not have been possible otherwise then I would say yes. That's a pretty neutral view as I already have a decent background knowledge of both WW1, WW2 and the surrounding periods. This could be encompassed by "I understand why the Nazis are upset" particularly if it was said at the time. But this still relies on me having a working knowledge of this period of world history and is a very poor example as I would wager every single person reading this thread possesses a fairly large knowledge base in that case.

"Probably unfairly"? That's as neutral as it gets.

As I have pointed out, in this case I have very little knowledge so I am relying on the posters in the thread to make their case. Hrotha's case appears much more balanced and less angry so from the point of view of a neutral observer with little to no background knowledge, it is the view I would be more likely to take and suggesting that your posts and satoris' posts strengthen that position is not "clinically insane".

What makes you think I care about what you think? I don't. Grow up.

I'm not trying to make a case, I made my case.
And you've failed. Resorting to insults and bringing up Nazis. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, clearly that was ill-advised.
 
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hrotha said:
It's very hard to take part in this debate or whatever it is, because you're constantly misreading what other people are saying or going in circles. For example, python said the argument that the Basque Country has never been independent is just plain silly, not because he claimed the Basque Country has, in fact, been independent before, but because it's completely irrelevant: many countries have never been independent until they were, and having an independent state is not a prerequisite for being a nation. There are many examples of this, contemporary like Kurdistan, and a gazillion if you look at it from a historical point of view: like every single country in the Balkans, or in the Americas, or in the Arab world.

Ok, NAME it. Tell us WHEN the Basque Country was independent.

As another example, you keep bringing up the concierto económico as if it invalidates any nationalist aspirations, when in actual fact Basque nationalism has never made a big deal of the financial issues and has always focused on political and cultural issues.

The leftist side has never made it an issue. The right-wing parties, namely PNV, have ALWAYS made the concierto económico a central point in their campaign.


When I pointed that out, you blatantly misread what I said and turned it around (Me: "they're their own nation that doesn't feel represented or comfortable within the broader state of Spain due to a variety of cultural and political reasons, economic plundering not typically being one of them"; You: "If the Basque economy is being literally “plundered,” why are they one of the richest communities in Spain with its own fiscal privileges?"). Since Basque nationalism isn't about economic issues, the fact that they're well off and rich by Spanish standards is absolutely irrelevant.

No, no, no. YOU said that the Basques had genuine grievances and YOU gave vague examples of what are supposed to be "grievances". I merely pointed out the absurdity of those grievances. If you tell people you're upset about little Pete kicking you in the leg yet... Little Pete never kicked you in the leg. That's not a grievance. That's an outright lie. And lies, and most importantly, LIARS, are to be exposed. With this I'm not saying yo are a liar, I'm saying that you are just passing the lies on to unsuspecting recipients.

My point all along is that the Spanish, by and large, disrespect and disparage the Basque Country, its identity and its symbols, and that that alone might well be reason enough for them to want independence.

Ok, whatever. Where do you get this information? I don't know if you know this, but you're making one heck of a blanket statement. One huge generalization. Did you even know that MOST Basque symbols are nothing by the PNV's symbols? Do you know who created the Ikurriña? Sabino Arana Goiri. Do you know who created the names Mikel, Sabin and many other "Basque" names? Sabino Arana Goiri. Yeah, read up on it.

What most think are traditional Basque things are nothing but a bunch of fake customs a racist degenerate created back in the 1800s.

You've countered that by saying... that they're not a nation (even though they are by any definition), that their language was made up (even though the process of coming up with a standard language to unify several dialects is historically quite common, as Italian and Hebrew, to name but two examples, may attest), that they don't have a common history (because they were split into two separate sides in a, huh, civil war), that Basque nationalism has no real reason to exist, since it's based solely on the myths invented by Sabino Arana, a Nazi (he was a racist, of course; but Basque nationalism outgrew him ages ago).

No, they've never been a nation before. Prove to me otherwise please. As far as Euskera Batua goes, it was political from the get go. Resurrección María de Azkúe said so himself. I don't mind, and actually respect, that the powers-that-be want to unify the Basque dialects (in reality it's only Giputxi and Bizkaitar, mostly) in an effort to prevent its disappearance.

And all of this, while playing the ETA card, as if the methods used by ETA somehow invalidated the goals of nationalism at large. All in all, you're doing a very good job of illustrating exactly what I was getting at, and why many Basques don't want anything to do with Spain, since the average Spaniard clearly has no respect for them as a people.

Again, a huge generalization. Like me saying that Mexicans don't like Americans. WTF! Huh?

Incidentally, I don't think it matters whether most Basques want independence or not: those who do are still entitled to make political statements and to try to get the others on their side. But, since you said the Euskobarómetro says only ONE THIRD want independence, let's set the record straight:
http://www.ehu.eus/documents/1457190/1525260/Euskobarometro+Noviembre+2014

No, it does matter. You can't have 33% of the people insinuate that they have a right to usurp 100% of the land, democratically that is. What they can do is carry out a referendum at the municipal level and then secede from their provinces to form a more sovereign entity. If they can.

That's the most recent one. Here's a news article about it. True, only 35% say they'd vote Yes on an independence referendum, but what you're not mentioning is that only 34% say they'd vote No. The rest are undecided or would abstain.

Fine! Since you do not want to find out yourself: 33% favor Basque independence, 31% federalism, 32% autonomy, 2% centralism. (2% undecided or not answering). Source: Euskobarometro.
 
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The_Cheech said:
hrotha said:
I'm not Basque.

Good for you.

Much of Spain denies Euskal Herria is a nation

That's because it isn't. Check google if you don't believe me.

just like you're doing, and hence doesn't respect it or its symbols.

No, you see, you're turning the attention to me when in reality the fact that you just created a fictitious country and legitimized its existence is what ought to be underlined with a WTF! In any other country you would be quickly labeled a looney tune if you said that people have to recognize the existence of a country that does not exist.

Yes, that's a perfectly good reason to repay the rest of Spain in like to make a point.

No it isn't. Euskal Herria is nothing but a cultural entity that now seeks to be recognized politically without going through the proper lawfully recognized channels. Do you want independence? Fine, let's all vote and see what happens. I've always said that the worst thing that could happen to Basque or Catalonian nationalists would be to find out that there are more Basque and Catalonian nationalists outside of the Basque Country and Catalonia than in them. Well, I wouldn't call them "nationalists" per se, more like "expulsionists," but the end result would be the same (both parts separate).

ETA isn't only exploited by the PP. No need to go further than the OP to see that card being played.

You're not answering my question, how is the political exploitation of a terrorist group, by whomever, reason enough for someone to get up one day and say "you know what? I f*cking hate their guts!".


So what you're saying is that you are losing your head over someone's non violent expression of their opinion because you simply disagree? It all becomes clear now.
 
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movingtarget said:
ray j willings said:
I get the feeling this has been blown out of all proportion and you/me are looking at a angry athlete who wanted and thought he should have won.

I think his head was cold and he preferred to keep the cap on !

He just could not be bothered to take it off. He his p%%%ed you can see that. Last thing on his mind his "should I take my hat off"
 
Re: Re:

The_Cheech said:
hrotha said:
I'm not Basque.

Good for you.

Much of Spain denies Euskal Herria is a nation

That's because it isn't. Check google if you don't believe me.

just like you're doing, and hence doesn't respect it or its symbols.

No, you see, you're turning the attention to me when in reality the fact that you just created a fictitious country and legitimized its existence is what ought to be underlined with a WTF! In any other country you would be quickly labeled a looney tune if you said that people have to recognize the existence of a country that does not exist.

Yes, that's a perfectly good reason to repay the rest of Spain in like to make a point.

No it isn't. Euskal Herria is nothing but a cultural entity that now seeks to be recognized politically without going through the proper lawfully recognized channels. Do you want independence? Fine, let's all vote and see what happens. I've always said that the worst thing that could happen to Basque or Catalonian nationalists would be to find out that there are more Basque and Catalonian nationalists outside of the Basque Country and Catalonia than in them. Well, I wouldn't call them "nationalists" per se, more like "expulsionists," but the end result would be the same (both parts separate).

ETA isn't only exploited by the PP. No need to go further than the OP to see that card being played.

You're not answering my question, how is the political exploitation of a terrorist group, by whomever, reason enough for someone to get up one day and say "you know what? I f*cking hate their guts!".

All nations are, to varrying degrees, fictions.

A nation doesn't have to be a political state reality, where ethnic, linguisitc and other cultural parameters more than suffice to legitimize the status. The case of Palestine is only the most glaring instance of this. The Basques, not being of Indo-European stock, certainly have more legitimacy to their cause than say do the northern Italians of mythical Padania. Italy has only existed since 1861, while the borders changed after the World Wars. There is a part of northern Italy, though, represented in the Lega Nord political party that doesn't want to be considered Italian, tracing its roots back to non-Italic celtic origins to "legitimize" its cause. The genealogical continuity the claim makes, however, doesn't exist, since the moment the Romans Latinized the region over 2000 years ago Padana is simply modern Nibelungen poli-trash.

I don't think you consider, or even recognize, the cultural roots of Basque identity, which are more powerful identity markers, than any historical legacy of national status.

At any rate, seems pretty normal given the level of conflict between Spain and the Basques, that Landa would not take his hat off during Spain's national anthem.
 
As someone who is English I get really annoyed with some of my fellow countrymens reaction to Andy Murray when he says he wants the England (football team) to lose I wouldn't expect anything else from a Scotsman just as I am happy when they lose at Football.
 
sienna said:
At least he can't be accused of not singing the words of the Spanish national anthem. :D
And the first post and some of the others in this thread are just examples of OTT nationalism. :mad:

Agreed with the last statement. In fact the taking off the hat gesture pertains to a type of religious reverence that has the scent of peurile servitude and ideological indoctrination, which is simply alien to my viewpoint. This goes for all national anthems. It is the stuff of IXX century patriotism and the crucible out of which fascism and the World Wars were ultimately forged.

Some might say I'm exaggerationg, but that isn't the case. Indeed men are required to remove their caps when entering a Roman Catholic Church for the very same reason: only in this case it is deferance to the divinity instead of deference to the patria.

In any case, while I can respect Landa's mode of private protest (which is sacrosanct, about the only thing to me that actually is), the more I have read about the Basque separatist movement, the more I get the sensation that fascist motives have been driving it, or in any case a type of counter-fascism that is hardly edifying.
 
Re:

del1962 said:
Is Basque separatism very strong in Basque France?

No, at least until recently.

"[Basque] nationalist messages gained particular strength in the early 20th century under the Spanish dictatorship of Primo de Rivera . . . these claims were met with total denial from the Spanish state, while the French state maintained a more cautious position, until recently, because Basque nationalism is far weaker there."

http://www.basquepeaceprocess.info/history/origins-of-the-basque-conflict/the-spanish-and-french-states-facing-the-basque-conflict-the-theory-of-privilege/

http://www.france24.com/en/tag/basque-separatists/
 

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