Landis Attacks Vaughters

[Granville57]

The article is no more.

WTF? Your'e right!
I just searched through the Neil Browne archives and nothing! I had the page open in another window and only just closed it before seeing your post.
What gives?

 

[Granville57]

Now i have to wonder if the whole thing was screwed up, because the title certainly seemed to imply an entirely different article. Maybe something was inadvertently put up on the site and then taken down when they realized the title didn't match?

 

[Altitude]

I think that Landis wants to show that he's not the only rider who did something wrong. When he was signed by US Postal he was 26 with a wife and an adopted daughter and with a lot of depts.
He was raised Menonite and learned the life we know as normal rather late.
That's a great opportunity for a dictator like Armstrong to tell him something like,"You nust dope or you don't get the job".

Point being..

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Point being..

Well, Landis has stated in the press he willingly doped as he knew it was necessary if he were to be part of the USPS tour team.

For Lance, I think it opens some legal issues if you either explicitly or implicitly make doping (an illegal act) a condition on employment. It is an even greater issue if being done as related to a govt (USPS) exercise.

Granville57, instead of quoting the whole of you previous lenghty post, I'll just echo your comment and agree with you view.

 

[Ferminal]

Kind of?

If numbers being this far off as a result of a mis-calibrated machine (perhaps the one LA paid for?) then what faith can be put in any numbers?

And yet, it is these numbers that build out the UCI Bio Passport.... ? No wonder the UCI loses their cases. What a waste.

From any view, it is a botch. Botched UCI for not having IDENTICAL machines.

To the point Landis seems to be making is: JV confessed (anyone have a link), never was sanctioned, and now runs what is slowly being revealed as the next big doping machine under the veil of "cleanliness".

I love the misspelling. Landis is a cad. It is not that he is directly hammering Wiggan, more putting it to Vaughters for not being sanctioned.

Yeh the machine is the big one from this story. Seems like a road of rubbish because if the results are so different then the whole biopassport is flawed (even moreso than it is now).

The really funny thing about this is Wigans being stupid enough to call out FLandis then his wife throwing a tantrum when Landis responds. Highly entertaining. Maybe she should make sure Wigans keeps off the booze and stops inviting such attacks instead of posting angry messages to the interweb.

Yep, and Floyd responds with something new, not just the usual Fabiani talking points like Wiggins.

 

[Anonymous]

I suspect that Flandis is off the reservation because something has happened to end his False Claims lawsuit. His behavior has changed, and it no longer appears that his message is being crafted by someone else.

I had the same thought.

 

[Granville57]

Granville57, instead of quoting the whole of you previous lenghty post, I'll just echo your comment and agree with you view.

It was at that. That's what happens when I miss the thread and have to catch up.

I suppose this is on topic:
One question I think LA or anyone suspected of doping should be forced to answer is, Have you ever participated in any activity or preparation that you wouldn't want the public to know about?

That would seem to be one way to side-step the usual semantic gymnastics that take place about "never testing postive", or "never used product x,y,z" etc.

I put the word "public" in to avoid the one possible work-around which would be that any athlete has the right not to reveal all their training "habits" to their competitors. But I would love to see the body language of any these guys if faced with this question. Although to the more pathological, they would probably just take it in stride. But still...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

What a mess. You can air your suspicions and ask people to explain things that don't seem right, and I encourage that. But this all sounds like these guys could have had this discussion via e-mail and not in the open and the world may have been a better place.

 

[Granville57]

What a mess. You can air your suspicions and ask people to explain things that don't seem right, and I encourage that. But this all sounds like these guys could have had this discussion via e-mail and not in the open and the world may have been a better place.

Your talking about "them" and not us, right?

 

[Ferminal]

What a mess. You can air your suspicions and ask people to explain things that don't seem right, and I encourage that. But this all sounds like these guys could have had this discussion via e-mail and not in the open and the world may have been a better place.

Aren't we beyond that though? Floyd tried that in 2009, but now, the knives are out.

Seems to be a fairly complex high stakes game playing out between LA/JB, Floyd and JV/Slipstream where White and Wiggins have taken a bit of a hit. Of course both were easy targets (White for what he did with Lowe, and Wiggins for slagging Floyd last week).

Doesn't seem like there's much unity in the USPS old boys club.

 

[dbrower]

I had the same thought.

I think Landis is feeling the oats of freedom coming from not giving a flying leap about racing again, and being judgment-proof.

-dB

 

[Race Radio]

I had the same thought.

Landis may have some FU money soon and no longer cares what people think

 

[blackcat]

It's good to see that Floyd has spent the last few years acquiring a PhD in haematology. It'll help him get a career.

I'm assuming he must have academic qualifications to be making such informed statements, right. Obviously, he has must have seen plenty of blood profiles other than his own, so he'll know exactly what a clean rider's data should look like.

On the other hand, he's such an expert he can't even spell Wiggins's name properly.

perhaps he intended to misspell Wigans, it was a nice backhander.

Floyd, everyone knows it is Wigans.

 

[Ferminal]

The deliberate misspelling is the WonderLance style, make it look as though you're completely clueless as a way of making your comments all the more stinging.

 

[Epicycle]

The internet has a good memory. Here's a cache of the article:

Article

- If Vaughters did admit anything to USADA, there is a statute of limitations and he's already implicitly admitted in at least a Kimmage interview that he doped to win the Dauphine in 1999.

- At least Vaughters contacted the UCI about Wiggins" high values. I really doubt anyone at Phonak paid much attention to Landis' high value during the 2006 Tour, which was over the teams professed cutoff. However that brings up the question of just how seriously did Garmin take it's own internal limits, should they have stopped Bradley from racing like the UCI would have done (theoretically at least) if he went over the hematocrit or hemoglobin limit?

It's kind of tough to agree with Floyd's specific reasoning as he tries to compare stuff to what he went through but I thought Wiggins' performance in 2009 and high value on the one hemoglobin test were very suspicious. It shows just how different the real world application of Garmin's policies are, even if they are well intentioned and not USPS version 2, especially when you have a guy riding top 10 in the Tour. Phonak couldn't pull Floyd from the 2006 Tour and I don't see Garmin really being any different in 2009 as far as applying an internal no-start policy.

 

[Granville57]

The internet has a good memory. Here's a cache of the article:

Article

Dead link

 

[Epicycle]

Dead link

For some reason Yahoo caches won't link. Try this, go to this link then click "Cached" on the first search result.

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7kp13TxNGAUB.7pXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGFvAzAEZnIDeWZwLXQtNzAxBGhvc3RwdmlkA0xhSHpQRW9HN3Y2bENMVkFUUmdCTVFXX3JicWJGVTA4M1hVQUJhMWYEbl9ncHMDMARuX3ZwcwMwBG9yaWdpbgNzcnAEcXVlcnkDVGhlIEluc2lkZSBTdG9yeSBvZiBNYXR0IFdoaXRlJ3MgRmlyaW5nBHNhbwMxBHZ0ZXN0aWQDSDQ2NQ--?p=The+Inside+Story+of+Matt+White's+Firing&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701

 

[Granville57]

Tada!!!
The original article on Versus by Neil Browne.
Strangely titled: The Inside Story of of Matt White's Firing

Floyd Landis has struck out once again at the cycling establishment. Last may during the Amgen Tour of California Landis accused Lance Armstrong and several ex-teammate of participating in an organized doping program during his time at the Postal Service team. This time he takes aim at a different target.

Landis claims that the current team manager of Garmin-Cervelo, Jonathan Vaughters, admitted to USADA's Travis Tygart that he had doped during his professional cycling career and was not sanctioned.

Landis writes, "Had USADA done what it was obligated to do at the time of his confession, as I'm not aware of a rule allowing for immunity in the case of a confession, I'd have known of it for one thing. But more importantly JV (Jonathan Vaughters)would not have been allowed to go on to develop USPS version 2.0 behind the facade of the "clean team" mantra."

Landis goes on to accuse the UCI of covering for Vaughters as another doping scandal, and one linked to the Garmin team - considered to be the cleanest in the sport, would ruin the reputation of professional cycling.

Vaughters made this statement, "We made a promise to our riders and to the world when we started this team. We live, every day, by the standards we have set for ourselves. We cannot allow this vital team rule to be broken."

This cover up includes then Garmin rider Bradley Wiggins. In a text message exchange Landis said to have had with Vaughters, "I discussed the fact that Bradley Wiggens (sic) HGB numbers that were publicly (posted on the web to show how he was riding clean) touted as evidence of his sainthood almost certainly indicated blood doping by Wiggens (sic) in the last week of the 2009 tour. His response was not so disturbing because if his defense of Wiggens (sic) but by the indication that he in fact had discussed these very numbers with the UCI and the UCI had assured him that it was a result of using a different testing machine." HGB stands for hemoglobin.

Landis continues, "Numbers I'll remind you that are all to similar to my 2006 numbers for which USADA made allegations on the record in my hearings that they indicated doping, and all of that CAS testimony was accepted as fact in the decision. Certainly since I admit to blood doping and the numbers indicate it according to WADA scientists on the record and that very record which will always remain on record was thereafter accepted as fact by three CAS lawyers it must be considered to be so."

Landis calls on Tygart to, "suspend JV immediately from working in cycling. I don't want to take the credit for divulging another doping scandal because it's not my job. It's yours."



The disgraced Tour de France winner claims his motivation to release another round of e-mails accusing riders and management of doping is to clear his conscience and show the hypocrisy of WADA.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

This really is extremely hypocritical of Floyd. Whatever happened to only talking about stuff he himself experienced? He knows for sure that Garmin is "USPS v2.0"? And what about "you've got to stop ruining lives over it (doping)"? That doesn't apply to Wiggins, does it? Floyd is just trying to "clear his conscience" by accusing Wiggins of doping based on an Hb reading? Bull****!

And why on earth should JV be suspended from DS'ing because he doped as a rider at USPS? There's no such policy in place. Just ask Riis, Andersen and Zabel...

 

[ElChingon]

Thanks for saving it Granville57! I have a copy as well.

For the rest of you (us) when a good nugget like that appears SAVE IT! You will thank yourselves later in having those golden nuggets for future reference. (the guys who saved the IM image of "The" convo come to mind)

Back to the Thread.

Floyd is (my guess) still looking for a co-conspirator or is it co-nark? If any of us put ourselves in his shoes we'd also get angry at accusations like Wiggins's. He may of put himself out of the game but he now plays a different game which might not ever stop, not that I'd like it to either, till all the dominoes fall. He also wants equal treatment and if JV said he doped to the governing body wouldn't we (fans) expect him to be sanctioned or brought up in some press conference at least? A comment about it like the T-Mobile confessions? Something? Anything else feeds the fire like it is.

Too bad the Omerta breakers only come out after they test positive and are fired. We need one to come out before that, but as we know its a tough call because they'll lose their jobs and salary.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

His 2005 values had a little spike. LOL at the 2006 HCT.

The 2006 numbers aren't similar at all. They are far, far worse.

The 2005 values are kind of similar because of the intra-GT hct spike. Floyd's retics were much more off though and his hct didn't drop nearly as much as it should've.

Are those the only times he was blood tested in 05-06? If so, that's a bad joke by the UCI! A top GT contender was only blood tested at PN, La Vuelta and the TdF?

How can he say the BP is totally useless when his blood doping was so laughably obvious? You'd think his profile would look fairly normal given that comment, but it's a trainwreck.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Are those the only times he was blood tested in 05-06? If so, that's a bad joke by the UCI! A top GT contender was only blood tested at PN, La Vuelta and the TdF?

For those new to The Clinic, that's the UCI's standard operating procedure for an anti-doping program. With TdF contenders lack of testing, "Never tested positive" is a foregone conclusion.

 

[BroDeal]

Can we assume that by raising the issue of Wigan's blood values with the UCI that Vaughters was suspicious of Wigans?

Maybe Vaughters talked with the UCI to cover his own ass, knowing that the UCI would dismiss the numbers and give Vaughters a way to deflect blame if Wigans was caught.

 

[Sanitiser]

So is it Wiggins that gets thrown under the bus next?

 

[Granville57]

This really is extremely hypocritical of Floyd. Whatever happened to only talking about stuff he himself experienced? He knows for sure that Garmin is "USPS v2.0"? And what about "you've got to stop ruining lives over it (doping)"? That doesn't apply to Wiggins, does it? Floyd is just trying to "clear his conscience" by accusing Wiggins of doping based on an Hb reading? Bull****!

And why on earth should JV be suspended from DS'ing because he doped as a rider at USPS? There's no such policy in place. Just ask Riis, Andersen and Zabel...

I'm not sure he ever claimed that, exactly. Although it's oft repeated that way.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?columnist=ford_bonnie_d&id=5215959

I told USADA what I know in detail, things that I've seen firsthand and things that people have told me they've done firsthand. I didn't repeat rumors, I didn't repeat secondhand information. I just told them what I had personally seen and I'll let them decide what to do about it.

I've had four years to think about it, and you know, I had to make the decision about whether to tell the truth or not at a point four years ago and now there's a few other people that I've named that are going to have to make a decision about what they have to do.

How do I tell the truth about me without anybody at the very least inferring that many other people would have been involved? It would have been absurd for me to say the detail about the things that I knew and then claim that I invented doping. There weren't any good choices apart from hurting a lot of other people and I knew what it felt like to go through it because I was going through it at the time and I didn't wish it on anyone. But I guess I hoped over a long period of time that it would get better and it would get fixed, but the foxes are guarding the henhouse, as they say, and it's never going to change until it all gets exposed.

I wish it didn't hurt other people in the process. I wish there was a way to do it where I guess the façade stayed the way that it is, but it's just not true. There's no way to tell the truth without involving other people, because the truth involves other people. I wouldn't have been able to handle it before, but I can take the accusations of being bipolar and crazy and whatever else people want to call me. I decided I'm just going to state the facts and whatever people say, whatever people want to believe ... They're going to believe whatever they're going to believe, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. And that's not my problem anymore. I'm just going to tell them the truth.

I'm really afraid that what I'm saying is going to come across as, this guy's just mad as hell, and I'm not mad. I actually feel better than I've felt in many, many years.