Landis Attacks Vaughters

[Sanitiser]

His crusade is personal. He's returning fire on Wiggins and there is probably some long history with JV acting like a saint now.

 

[andy1234]

There have been questions about Brad since 2009 about his blood levels through the tour, WE KNOW THE STORY, just no-one will admit to it. We pretty much know JV's history as well so why the shock and horror about what Floyd's said.

I get the distinct impression that Floyd is now looking at anyone who can corroborate his story but has yet to actually, truthfully say anything. I'd still back Floyd, rambling yes probably but his crusade is not over!

If you "KNOW THE STORY" why don't you tell us what "THE STORY" is?
Plenty of facts please.

 

[euanli]

Who knows, maybe he asked JV for a job on clean team and was told no...

 

[Maxiton]

Hey, Floyd's a clean rider. Maybe JV should bring him aboard.

 

[hrotha]

I don't think you can blame JV for hiring former dopers, since the whole point of the team, allegedly, was to create an environment where riders weren't driven to dope to compete. There wouldn't be any reason for Slipstream to exist if many of their riders hadn't been driven to dope in their previous teams.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

To be fair you can do that for pretty much any team.

Yes but as others in the thread suggest, it is one of the points of the team, to offer safe harbor for those who want to race clean.

However, it is hard to dispute the commonality of the programs that these riders "graduated" from. If they race clean at Garmin, then tip of the hat to JV. However, if he is turning a blind eye, or willingly letting himself be duped by some or many of these guys using the "old ways", then he has failed.

I think it was proper to fire White for using Del Moral, no matter the purpose. It does beg two dozen questions that I am sure no one will ask, and even if posed, JV would certainly invoke rider confidentiality or some other shield to avoid answering.

It would be nice to have someone above JV come to the microphone and provide some clarity.

It is disappointing that some still attempt to kill the messenger, Landis, despite him showing he is far more true to his aim than most give him credit for. Many don't "like" him but it is undeniable he is actively working to expose the underbelly whenever he can.

 

[ergmonkey]

I don't think you can blame JV for hiring former dopers, since the whole point of the team, allegedly, was to create an environment where riders weren't driven to dope to compete. There wouldn't be any reason for Slipstream to exist if many of their riders hadn't been driven to dope in their previous teams.

Definitely, this is the reasonable argument for structuring the team as it currently exists. My original point was simply: now that at least some of those "former" dopers have slipped up, reasonable suspicion about the core structure of the team has arisen. JV has a crisis to manage; past performance suggests he is competent in his PR skills to manage it, though.

 

[ergmonkey]

Also, I think the fact that a team director was sending a rider to a doping doctor is a much bigger problem for Slipstream than learning that an individual rider was doping. When a DS is dirty, it's fair to start asking questions about each rider he directed and whether any of those other riders were ever encouraged to visit the same shady doctor.

 

[Maxiton]

Who knows, maybe he asked JV for a job on clean team and was told no...

You beat me to it. Didn't see this until mine was posted.

 

[Maxiton]

Also, I think the fact that a team director was sending a rider to a doping doctor is a much bigger problem for Slipstream than learning that an individual rider was doping. When a DS is dirty, it's fair to start asking questions about each rider he directed and whether any of those other riders were ever encouraged to visit the same shady doctor.

+1. That really is a crucial point you're making. Rider is one thing, DS a bigger deal entirely.

 

[Night Rider]

http://www.versus.com/blogs/the-experts-opinion/the-inside-story-of-matt-whites-firing/

Looks like Landis is now going after Vaughters and Wiggins. Calling for Vaughters to be suspended from cycling and claiming Wiggins' 2009 TDF blood profile is similar to his in 2006. I'm starting to be a bit confused what Landis' priorities are now.

Attack anyone and everything to do with doping. It’s part of the purging process I think, to make up past indiscretions he has to tell all he knows about doping practices.

I applaud him for what he’s done about Armstrong so it would be unethical of me to want him to stop there. No one should be safe.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Seems to me Landis has reached that state of mind and situation were he`s free to express ( both badly and well ) whatever he wish`s without much concern for retribution.
If he aint involved in racing, has no substantial material possesions etc while the loss`s are considerable theres also the liberation of a free soul.
Ying @ Yang eh?

All of Lances power, all of the UCI`s power, all the corruption of powers at many levals in the sport ( as in life) only exist if you play the games and grant them.

Rubin 'Hurricane' Carter "It's very important to transcend to places that hold us."

 

[Sanitiser]

Honestly I don't think Floyd is that altruistic or a hero. It seems to be be payback for comments by Wiggins http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-calls-for-biological-passport-data-to-be-made-public then this White things comes out and now you've got a nice basis to say the team was on a program.

 

[lean mean &green]

It is disappointing that some still attempt to kill the messenger, Landis, despite him showing he is far more true to his aim than most give him credit for. Many don't "like" him but it is undeniable he is actively working to expose the underbelly whenever he can.

this "credibility defense" must have been developed by a complete fool. the very next thing it forces people to do is to evaluate motives closely. armstrong and anyone else's PR people need to say this without really saying it. it should have been implied, not explicit. i'm shocked at how badly they mismanaged this situation, absolutely shocked.

what's being glossed over is wiggins comments about landis following the SI article. wiggins essentially tries to write off floyd's contribution to the armstrong allegations suggesting floyd is mentally unstable and has a drinking problem - again. wiggins (who has a lot to hide) thought it would be a good idea to defend lance by trying to discredit floyd (who no longer has anything to hide). wiggins doesn't want to get into a war of words he knows he'll lose so he has the wife tweet his defense. another shockingly dumb move.

my comments to brad:
the omerta is a code of silence. it's not hard to do, any idiot can decide to keep their mouth shut, that's why it works. you aren't clever, you look like an imbecile.

my comments to brad's fans:
he isn't being toungue in cheek when talking, or choosing not to talk about doping. it's not cute creative double-speak. he is 100 percent an armstrong company man.

my comments to floyd:
patience bro, patience.

PS wiggins success in 2009 is very easily explained. he need a big result to get a big pay day from team sky. he was willing to take bigger risks that year than in 2010. it's not even a little complicated.

 

[Sanitiser]

However if you read the article he gives credit to JV and explains away his success as being on a program similar to CVV. I don't know enough to make a comparison about the two riders to say that even makes any sense.

 

[auscyclefan94]

@Cathwiggins1981

--- edited by mod ---

 

[Sanitiser]

After your husband publicly calls somebody an alcoholic with mental problems, what do you expect Mrs Wiggins?

 

[Granville57]

Good god, I try to take one healthy break from the forum...and Floyd strikes again!

I'll say right up front that I'm huge Floyd fan—always have been. He's unpredictable, stirs the pot, and doesn't care one bit what people think of him. I perfectly understand the outrage he generates from many, but I just see it differently.

Having read through all the comments so far, I'll add this:
I don't understand why some would think Floyd doesn't have a sophisticated understanding of blood values. He was in the game as far as one can go. First-hand experience at the highest levels should hardly be underestimated.

His calling out of JV is unexpected in this fashion but keep in mind, he never bought into the whole "clean team" thing. I remember in the early days of Highroad, he referred to them as "Team High Horse, or whatever-the-hell they're called." He wasn't buying it. Again, he knows the game and all the players in that game. I compare it to my own profession. I know plenty of things with absolute authority that just aren't known publicly. A lot of us do. Don't underestimate Floyd's understanding of what goes on. He hasn't been out of the game that long.

I am surprised that he is making any comments though, as I would think that Novitsky or some other fed would rather he didn't. But who knows. I do find the exploding-head-response to his refusal to go quietly to be endlessly entertaining though.

The problem with the Versus article is that it's poorly written. Neil Browne has the inside track on Floyd, and always has (does Neil post here? Would love to know). So I don't understand why it wasn't put together more coherently. As noted, the title is completely misplaced.

But there's confusion in the context

Landis claims that the current team manager of Garmin-Cervelo, Jonathan Vaughters, admitted to USADA's Travis Tygart that he had doped during his professional cycling career and was not sanctioned.

It doesn't specify a timeline for that. Is he suggesting that JV admitted, and was not sanctioned "during his career" (as a rider)? Or that he confessed recently to Tygart, as part of the fed investigation, as wasn't immediately banned because of it?

Landis writes, "Had USADA done what it was obligated to do at the time of his confession, as I'm not aware of a rule allowing for immunity in the case of a confession, I'd have known of it for one thing. But more importantly JV (Jonathan Vaughters) would not have been allowed to go on to develop USPS version 2.0 behind the facade of the "clean team" mantra."

Why wouldn't he have been able to develop the team? Should he have been banned for life? If not, why would a confession of his past transgression as a rider have prevented him from developing a "clean team"? David Millar's position on the team would seem to indicate that it would, if anything, lend weight to the argument. As if to say, "Yup we've been there, done that. We want to 'break the chain.'"

Or it could imply that JV confessed to Tygart, just prior to starting Slipstream. Which raises even more questions.

So there's a lot confusion there that isn't cleared up by the author.

The Wiggo thing is something else though. It does seem that Bradley's recent comments may have been a preemptive strike. But Wiggo is a bigger fool than recently revealed if he thinks for one moment that he, or his wife, are going to win a "war of words" with FLandis. Floyd can keep it up endlessly without distracting his "career." Wiggo only opens up the gate for more distractions. And as much as some people wish desperately for Floyd to go quietly into the night, the media has backed themselves into a corner where they will now publicize everything he does, because it gets attention. And the media is nothing without "attention."

The other flaw in the article is the timing of the source. At first one might believe that these are new allegations. But further reading would indicate that this all from Landis' original emails from last May. The article simply says "This time he takes aim at a different target." But if one looks at the first quote, and then the final quote of the article, they read very much like that first batch of emails of which only some have been released.

Floyd Landis has struck out once again at the cycling establishment. Last May during the Amgen Tour of California Landis accused Lance Armstrong and several ex-teammates of participating in an organized doping program during his time at the Postal Service team. This time he takes aim at a different target.

Landis calls on Tygart to, "suspend JV immediately from working in cycling. I don't want to take the credit for divulging another doping scandal because it's not my job. It's yours."

That part in bold—the tone, etc— is exactly like what we saw in the first wave of emails. Here, he's contentious towards Tygart, but later in the original batch of emails, we saw Floyd more conciliatory at one point when he actually thanked (some one from USAC?) for putting him in direct contact with Travis. So it seems inconsistent that he would be back on the attack when one would have to believe that he has, if anything, been working quite closely with Tygart recently. Why these have been released at this time, or by whom, is also left unanswered.

Lastly, I would suggest that it's extremely naive for most (not all) of the posters here to think that there isn't much more going on behind the scenes than we know. Again, just think about any inside info you yourselves are privy to in your daily lives. There's always more to the story.

 

[isayic]

I think that Landis wants to show that he's not the only rider who did something wrong. When he was signed by US Postal he was 26 with a wife and an adopted daughter and with a lot of depts.
He was raised Menonite and learned the life we know as normal rather late.
That's a great opportunity for a dictator like Armstrong to tell him something like,"You nust dope or you don't get the job".

 

[hrotha]

The article is no more.

I think the doubts about Landis regarding JV/Wiggins stem from the perception that he's being pretty chaotic, talking to the media again only a few days after the legalize doping thing (assuming this stuff is new) and sounding like he doesn't have much backing his claims compared to last May, whereas prior to this he appeared to control what he said and how often he spoke and there appeared to be a well-defined long-term plan behind his every public statement. It's kind of odd.

I don't mean to attack Landis as a means to defend JV and Garmin, though. I just think discussing Landis himself is also interesting, considering the role he's playing and has to play in the future of this sport.

 

[lean mean &green]

I think that Landis wants to show that he's not the only rider who did something wrong. When he was signed by US Postal he was 26 with a wife and an adopted daughter and with a lot of depts.
He was raised Menonite and learned the life we know as normal rather late.
That's a great opportunity for a dictator like Armstrong to tell him something like,"You nust dope or you don't get the job".

menonite's aren't as sheltered as you might think. floyd's not, and was never a naive country bumpkin.

 

[Sanitiser]

menonite's aren't as sheltered as you might think. floyd's not, and was never a naive country bumpkin.

Coyle's book paints him as rather smart and questioning.

 

[thehog]

Good god, I try to take one healthy break from the forum...and Floyd strikes again!

I'll say right up front that I'm huge Floyd fan—always have been. He's unpredictable, stirs the pot, and doesn't care one bit what people think of him. I perfectly understand the outrage he generates from many, but I just see it differently.

Having read through all the comments so far, I'll add this:
I don't understand why some would think Floyd doesn't have a sophisticated understanding of blood values. He was in the game as far as one can go. First-hand experience at the highest levels should hardly be underestimated.

His calling out of JV is unexpected in this fashion but keep in mind, he never bought into the whole "clean team" thing. I remember in the early days of Highroad, he referred to them as "Team High Horse, or whatever-the-hell they're called." He wasn't buying it. Again, he knows the game and all the players in that game. I compare it to my own profession. I know plenty of things with absolute authority that just aren't known publicly. A lot of us do. Don't underestimate Floyd's understanding of what goes on. He hasn't been out of the game that long.

I am surprised that he is making any comments though, as I would think that Novitsky or some other fed would rather he didn't. But who knows. I do find the exploding-head-response to his refusal to go quietly to be endlessly entertaining though.

The problem with the Versus article is that it's poorly written. Neil Browne has the inside track on Floyd, and always has (does Neil post here? Would love to know). So I don't understand why it wasn't put together more coherently. As noted, the title is completely misplaced.

But there's confusion in the context

It doesn't specify a timeline for that. Is he suggesting that JV admitted, and was not sanctioned "during his career" (as a rider)? Or that he confessed recently to Tygart, as part of the fed investigation, as wasn't immediately banned because of it?


Why wouldn't he have been able to develop the team? Should he have been banned for life? If not, why would a confession of his past transgression as a rider have prevented him from developing a "clean team"? David Millar's position on the team would seem to indicate that it would, if anything, lend weight to the argument. As if to say, "Yup we've been there, done that. We want to 'break the chain.'"

Or it could imply that JV confessed to Tygart, just prior to starting Slipstream. Which raises even more questions.

So there's a lot confusion there that isn't cleared up by the author.

The Wiggo thing is something else though. It does seem that Bradley's recent comments may have been a preemptive strike. But Wiggo is a bigger fool than recently revealed if he thinks for one moment that he, or his wife, are going to win a "war of words" with FLandis. Floyd can keep it up endlessly without distracting his "career." Wiggo only opens up the gate for more distractions. And as much as some people wish desperately for Floyd to go quietly into the night, the media has backed themselves into a corner where they will now publicize everything he does, because it gets attention. And the media is nothing without "attention."

The other flaw in the article is the timing of the source. At first one might believe that these are new allegations. But further reading would indicate that this all from Landis' original emails from last May. The article simply says "This time he takes aim at a different target." But if one looks at the first quote, and then the final quote of the article, they read very much like that first batch of emails of which only some have been released.

That part in bold—the tone, etc— is exactly like what we saw in the first wave of emails. Here, he's contentious towards Tygart, but later in the original batch of emails, we saw Floyd more conciliatory at one point when he actually thanked (some one from USAC?) for putting him in direct contact with Travis. So it seems inconsistent that he would be back on the attack when one would have to believe that he has, if anything, been working quite closely with Tygart recently. Why these have been released at this time, or by whom, is also left unanswered.

Lastly, I would suggest that it's extremely naive for most (not all) of the posters here to think that there isn't much more going on behind the scenes than we know. Again, just think about any inside info you yourselves are privy to in your daily lives. There's always more to the story.

There were 3 emails. Only one saw the light of day to the public.

 

[dbrower]

I think there's moe to the Matt White firing than has been shown. When I'd the big Kimmage piece showing up, and what is he going to say about his Garmin embedding in retrospect?

-dB

 

[Kennf1]

The article is no more.

Now that's weird. It was up for all of 8 hours? Then scrubbed? Neil feeling pressure from Versus?