Landis - 'Positively False'

[sars1981]

I'm yet to read this book. I've just been reading the reviews on Amazon and the eagerness to which people seem to be willing to believe in his unlikely innocence is a little worrying.

http://www.amazon.com/Positively-Fa...ts=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

i've been wondering for a while what Floyds innocence campaign is motivated by. It seems odd that he would be willing to embarrass himself in this way when synthetic testosterone was found in not one but two of his samples. He really has some general animosity towards the system. My feeling is although he wasn't clean, what he got busted for does not reflect what he was on, or what he thought he was on. Perhaps the testosterone was residual and should have been cleared by that point, meaning he feels he wasn't really 'on' it? Perhaps Floyd was unaware he took testosterone?

None of this is trying to make excuses for Floyd, who is an old school doper no doubt.

 

[L29205]

I'm yet to read this book. I've just been reading the reviews on Amazon and the eagerness to which people seem to be willing to believe in his unlikely innocence is a little worrying.

http://www.amazon.com/Positively-Fa...ts=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

i've been wondering for a while what Floyds innocence campaign is motivated by. It seems odd that he would be willing to embarrass himself in this way when synthetic testosterone was found in not one but two of his samples. He really has some general animosity towards the system. My feeling is although he wasn't clean, what he got busted for does not reflect what he was on, or what he thought he was on. Perhaps the testosterone was residual and should have been cleared by that point, meaning he feels he wasn't really 'on' it? Perhaps Floyd was unaware he took testosterone?

None of this is trying to make excuses for Floyd, who is an old school doper no doubt.

Well I guess I will give my opinion on this. I believe Landis was in trouble and needed a little psychological boost. People make make crappy decisions at times when they are both physically and emotionally drained. I would guess that he thought the testosterone would help him. I also believe that he knew he F@cked up which is why in the videos from the stage he was free-basing water in a vein attempt to flush his mistake away.

This is not a justification of the actions but a simple theory on the what I think may have been going through his mind at the time of a very stupid decision.

 

[Kennf1]

Well I guess I will give my opinion on this. I believe Landis was in trouble and needed a little psychological boost. People make make crappy decisions at times when they are both physically and emotionally drained. I would guess that he thought the testosterone would help him. I also believe that he knew he F@cked up which is why in the videos from the stage he was free-basing water in a vein attempt to flush his mistake away.

This is not a justification of the actions but a simple theory on the what I think may have been going through his mind at the time of a very stupid decision.

And the jump in his hematocrit in the middle of the Tour was from? Test. was what he got popped for. If anyone thinks that's all he was doing, well ...

You don't take testosterone ONCE to help you on a given stage. You take it in cycles throughout the training season.

 

[Race Radio]

And the jump in his hematocrit in the middle of the Tour was from? Test. was what he got popped for. If anyone thinks that's all he was doing, well ...

You don't take testosterone ONCE to help you on a given stage. You take it in cycles throughout the training season.

True. The IRMS test also showed he was taking testosterone throughout the Tour. It was not a one time event

 

[blackcat]

True. The IRMS test also showed he was taking testosterone throughout the Tour. It was not a one time event

Landis was warned by USA Cycling I heard, to back off in 2006. HE did the opposite.

Like Rasmussen, if you check Rass' hematocrits for the past Tours he rode, 2007 he really upped his program.

When Armstrong went, and there was a void left by Ullrich, Basso, and Landis, then some guys really saw an opportunity to go with a heavy program. The risk/reward skewed in their favour with a big pay day.

And why was I told by someone, that Rasmussen was gonna get pulled down, a week before the 2007 Tour. No one was to know he would find himself in the lead, but I was told the sheet was gonna hit the fan. Velonews were sitting on this.

The whole sport in corrupt.

 

[Race Radio]

And why was I told by someone, that Rasmussen was gonna get pulled down, a week before the 2007 Tour. No one was to know he would find himself in the lead, but I was told the sheet was gonna hit the fan. Velonews were sitting on this.

The whole sport in corrupt.

Not sure exactly what you are referring to but the info about Rass missing tests was certainly sat on by the UCI.

UCI rules at the time stated that if a rider missed an OOC test in the 6 weeks leading up to a GT they would not be able to start the GT. They also stated that if a rider missed 3 OOC test they would be suspended. Rass missed 4 tests and the UCI did nothing and decided to hold the info until the Tour was underway in order to cause maximum damage to the Tour. They did not even have the guts to address the issue themselves instead leaking it through the Fed.

In the Year prior a group of investors, led by Armstrong and Verburggen, tried to buy the Tour. They could not agree on price. When the UCI went out of thier way to damage the Tour Christian Prudhomme said

"They tried to buy the Tour but did not like the price, now they are trying to devalue the asset so they can buy it for cheaper"

 

[BroDeal]

i've been wondering for a while what Floyds innocence campaign is motivated by.

I think it was several things.

1) He was not doing anything anyone else was not doing, so he felt he was the legitimate winner. There is a lot to be said for that. All the TdF winners back to Indurain were obivously jacked to the moon, and for all of those but Indurain there is adequate evidence to prove they were doped. So why should FLandis be the one guy who does not get to keep his win?

2) His hip issues might have ended his career. He was put in a position where he may have thought that he would not have another opportunity to win a big event again. Possibly he may have thought that he would not be able to race as a pro again.

3) There were huge financial incentives. If FLandis could have kept his win then it would have been worth millions of dollars. His PR people were building an image that would have played very well with people who were turned off by Armstrong's cold, robotic behavior. Tales like him trading a yellow jersey for a beer on his way down Alpe d'Huez were hilarious.

4) He got bad advice from people around him. In some cases I think people were using him in an attempt to damage the anti-doping framework. He was either not wise enough to pull back from the situation and think about the risks or too caught up in the fight to do so. In other cases the people surrounding him were just flat out stupid as evidenced by the Lemond phone incident and hacking the French lab.

5) He thought he could win. People have gotten off from testosterone positives before. There was a chance that a procedural error could be found that would get him off the hook.

6) There is no advantage to giving in. The UCI have engineered a system where there is no reason not to fight. Not fighting does not give an athlete a shorter suspension. Even in cases where riders have supposedly cooperated and received a shorter ban, the powers that be have often appealed to CAS to have the full two years imposed.

 

[blackcat]

Not sure exactly what you are referring to but the info about Rass missing tests was certainly sat on by the UCI.

UCI rules at the time stated that if a rider missed an OOC test in the 6 weeks leading up to a GT they would not be able to start the GT. They also stated that if a rider missed 3 OOC test they would be suspended. Rass missed 4 tests and the UCI did nothing and decided to hold the info until the Tour was underway in order to cause maximum damage to the Tour. They did not even have the guts to address the issue themselves instead leaking it through the Fed.

In the Year prior a group of investors, led by Armstrong and Verburggen, tried to buy the Tour. They could not agree on price. When the UCI went out of thier way to damage the Tour Christian Prudhomme said

"They tried to buy the Tour but did not like the price, now they are trying to devalue the asset so they can buy it for cheaper"

yeah, I knew they tried to buy it this year. Madame Amaury said non. I did not know this was the second bid tho. I spoke to the guy who wrote on it at WSJ, and had a source in Cannes with details.

I knew Velonews were sitting on this story about Rasmussen tho.

 

[L29205]

And the jump in his hematocrit in the middle of the Tour was from? Test. was what he got popped for. If anyone thinks that's all he was doing, well ...

You don't take testosterone ONCE to help you on a given stage. You take it in cycles throughout the training season.

Well, I was mainly focusing on the positive in the tour. I am willing to say that I am uninformed. Please give me the opportunity to properly educate myself. Links please.

Not Focusing on any of the several posters who commented on response. So if you want to respond feel free. I am open to education.

 

[Race Radio]

yeah, I knew they tried to buy it this year. Madame Amaury said non. I did not know this was the second bid tho. I spoke to the guy who wrote on it at WSJ, and had a source in Cannes with details.

I knew Velonews were sitting on this story about Rasmussen tho.

Actually there was only one bid. The news that came out this year was actually from the 2005/6 bid

I assume you are referring to Whitney Richards story of dope in the shoes. This story had been well known for years but Pelkey could not get Whitney to go on record until Rass was leading the Tour bragging about how clean he was.

 

[BroDeal]

I have always half suspected that could have been foul play with FLandis' positive. Not that he was not doping, that is unquestionable, but it was very convenient for the Tour winner to test positive in the middle of a fight between the ASO and the UCI. It is one of those coincidences that make me wonder.

The following year the UCI withheld facts about Rasmussen, which demonstrates that they were perfectly capable of using doping as a weapon to damage their enemies. The ASO was so convinced that the UCI had intentionally damaged the Tour that they took away drug testing responsibilities from the UCI.

 

[Race Radio]

Well, I was mainly focusing on the positive in the tour. I am willing to say that I am uninformed. Please give me the opportunity to properly educate myself. Links please.

Not Focusing on any of the several posters who commented on response. So if you want to respond feel free. I am open to education.

During the Trial Landis was asked to produce a copy of his Hct numbers. He lied and said he did not have them. He lied multiple times throughout the trial pretending he did not have them. Finally the UCI produced a email proving he did indeed have them and he produced his numbers the following day, after the case had closed.

His Hct hit 48.2, his highest ever recorded, in the third week of the Tour the morning after the rest day. An undoped riders would see a 12% drop in the third week. As part of Phonak's deal with the UCI that allowed them to continue to race after multiple positives they promised to suspend any riders that were over 48. They somehow forgot this when it came to Floyd.

As for his positives at the Tour. The initial tests were simple ratio test. The secondary test is able to see if the samples have synthetic testosterone in them. This is normally only used if the rider fails the ratio test. The IRMS test showed that 4 of Floyds samples were positive for synthetic testosterone.

 

[Escarabajo]

During the Trial Landis was asked to produce a copy of his Hct numbers. He lied and said he did not have them. He lied multiple times throughout the trial pretending he did not have them. Finally the UCI produced a email proving he did indeed have them and he produced his numbers the following day, after the case had closed.

His Hct hit 48.2, his highest ever recorded, in the third week of the Tour the morning after the rest day. An undoped riders would see a 12% drop in the third week. As part of Phonak's deal with the UCI that allowed them to continue to race after multiple positives they promised to suspend any riders that were over 48. They somehow forgot this when it came to Floyd.

As for his positives at the Tour. The initial tests were simple ratio test. The secondary test is able to see if the samples have synthetic testosterone in them. This is normally only used if the rider fails the ratio test. The IRMS test showed that 4 of Floyds samples were positive for synthetic testosterone.

Here is the link that I have. It looks to me that more than one rider is dirty based on retics. But in this link everything looked normal according to the interviewed people.

http://trustbut.blogspot.com/2008/08/blood-values-landis-garmin-and-that-485.html

Race Radio: Can you elaborate on this 48.5% suspicious number? Do you have any sources where somebody explains why it was suspicious? (Don't get me wrong, I know 48.5% is high for the third week but Ashenden almost cleared him by using the offscore)
Thanks.

Edit: I remember a member in this forum saying that in order for the blood transfusion to work better there needed to be a good amount of testosterone to be taken in by the body more rapidly. It looked like the extra blood did not work at all for Floyd and he had to take "extra" testosterone. Maybe somebody else with more knowledge on this can help me.

 

[Race Radio]

Here is the link that I have. It looks to me that more than one rider is dirty based on retics. But in this link everything looked normal according to the interviewed people.

http://trustbut.blogspot.com/2008/08/blood-values-landis-garmin-and-that-485.html

Race Radio: Can you elaborate on this 48.5% suspicious number? Do you have any sources where somebody explains why it was suspicious?
Thanks.

Edit: I remember a member in this forum saying that in order for the blood transfusion to work better there needed to be a good amount of testosterone to be taken in by the body more rapidly. It looked like the extra blood taken from the rest day did not work at all for Floyd and he had to take "extra" testosterone. Maybe somebody else with more knowledge on this can help me.

Sorry, but Trust but is a joke. They are nothing but a mouth piece for Floyds fraud.

The idea that Floyd was severely dehydrated after the rest day is a joke, especially when he went on to have a huge performance shortly there after. It is almost comical how they snip the Ashenden interview. They left out this important part.

“Going from 15.5 to 16.1 (in hemoglobin) is not that unusual when not competing,” Ashenden said by phone from Australia. “But it is very unusual to see an increase after a hard week of cycling. You'd expect it to be the reverse. You'd expect that to fall in a clean athlete. An increase like this in the midst of the Tour de France would be highly, highly unlikely.

Floyd was on the complete program.

 

[Escarabajo]

Sorry, but Trust but is a joke. They are nothing but a mouth piece for Floyds fraud.

...

Thanks for the info.

 

[L29205]

Sorry, but Trust but is a joke. They are nothing but a mouth piece for Floyds fraud.

The idea that Floyd was severely dehydrated after the rest day is a joke, especially when he went on to have a huge performance shortly there after. It is almost comical how they snip the Ashenden interview. They left out this important part.

“Going from 15.5 to 16.1 (in hemoglobin) is not that unusual when not competing,” Ashenden said by phone from Australia. “But it is very unusual to see an increase after a hard week of cycling. You'd expect it to be the reverse. You'd expect that to fall in a clean athlete. An increase like this in the midst of the Tour de France would be highly, highly unlikely.

Floyd was on the complete program.

There was a part of my original post that I thought I stated he was trying flush out or change his numbers by diluting his blood, he knew whatever he did was not legal and was doing what he could to cover it up.

I may not have been as clear as I could have been in my original post. But my final point was whatever was going on FL was trying everything to flush it out.

 

[buckwheat]

His Hct hit 48.2, his highest ever recorded, in the third week of the Tour the morning after the rest day. An undoped riders would see a 12% drop in the third week. As part of Phonak's deal with the UCI that allowed them to continue to race after multiple positives they promised to suspend any riders that were over 48. They somehow forgot this when it came to Floyd.

Actually Floyd had a 20% drop in his Hct. He's normally up around 60. You know, that hypoxic tent and all.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good info from RR and BC, accurate as far as I know.

Trust But Verify tried to come off like an objective scientific journal during Floyd's troubles, but they got picket apart by many people on every level. Their posting faded and they died with Floyd's USADA ruling.

Agree pretty much with BroDeal's first post on the "why", though I have some other opinions:

It seems pretty likely in retrospect Floyd was doped his entire career to one degree or another, probably starting during Mercury, through heavy programs at USPS and Phonak. That was during a period of rampant doping, he was surrounded by dopers - many of whom would later face suspensions, bans, or be involved in major scandals. Many of the guys Floyd beat were later shown to have doped as well. So in his mind he probably thought he wasn't doing much more or less than anyone else. Though I think as RR says, while others may have been cleaner, and almost no one was clean, Floyd was on the full program. He probably took what info he had with him from USPS, with his connections that he could, but the highly refined system there didn't exist at Phonak, and he took one step over the edge.

I think there's two other things that likely made him fight. On that stage over the Joux Plane he rode a very gritty, determined ride. Yeah, he was overcharged if you will, but it was a great strategy he employed, and to do that, and have it yanked out from underneath you when you just assume everyone else is doping had to make him bitter.

It's also my opinion that the system did do Floyd wrong when it leaked his A sample to the media the same time he found out. Not that this makes him innocent, and I don't for a moment think LNDD did anything to him or there was any conspiracy, but that was not fair to him, and probably made him even more bitter.

Someone I know has talked to Floyd a few times, and said he was a pretty simple guy. Not stupid, just simple. Kind of like the Mennonite country folk he was growing up in a sense. What's the old saying? You can take the boy out of the country.... I think that came back to haunt him. He surrounded himself with some jackals - people that showed their true colors in his USADA hearing, and it soured a lot of people, including myself.

I also always thought Floyd's defense should have been the cortisone shots for his hip. He could have played dumb, saying he didn't know when he last got a shot exactly. Then Arnie Baker could have fallen on the sword (not that Arnie would do this as a person) and say he gave Floyd a shot just before the Tour. Then his legal team could have constantly argued that what they were finding in Floyd's system was from that shot. It still would not have held up scientifically in either the USADA hearing or CAS ruling, but it would have gained him more sympathy than the "attack the lab for framing me" defense he used. Especially to the general public.

Finally, I liked the few chapters of Floyd's book the best. His stories about growing up and getting into cycling. That part is enjoyable. The last half and everything on his case is one-sided, and filled with fiction.

[Edit - I should note that judging by his results, it seems quite possible that Floyd has been riding clean for the last few years].

 

[craig1985]

I haven't seen it, but I was told of a documentary called Faster, Higher, Stronger and Flandis was quoted as saying "everybody is doping" or something along the lines of that. Is that true?

 

[L29205]

Good info from RR and BC, accurate as far as I know.


[Edit - I should note that judging by his results, it seems quite possible that Floyd has been riding clean for the last few years].

great and very informative post, you did a very nice job of bringing several posts together to give the thread a solid ending.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Thanks. Though I don't know I'd say the thread has ended. Has it?

I haven't seen it, but I was told of a documentary called Faster, Higher, Stronger and Flandis was quoted as saying "everybody is doping" or something along the lines of that. Is that true?

No, he definitely doesn't say that.

I would however definitely recommend that documentary. Though he left some details out, and put a couple of opinions in, overall he did a thorough job and made a film well worth watching.

 

[L29205]

Maybe not ended, but it could be a good reflection point.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Well, I'll take it as a compliment. Thank you!

 

[brianf7]

Testosterone all I can say is it wasnt the testosterone that gave him the boost he needed to ride that stage that put him back in the lead.

I have had testosterone replacement for past 10 years and I can tell you its not the wonder drug its made out to be.

Recovery OK it may help but on the other hand it also slows you down . eventualy it will improve strengh but at cost of leg speed.

Stiff soar joints you name it.

 

[sars1981]

Some great posts, thanks, I've really enjoyed reading this thread. Makes such a massive difference when intelligent posters contribute to the topic rather than waste time refuting certain trolls and their spurious points, which seems to be the fate of so many other threads these days..wish it could always be like this.