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Landis - 'Positively False'

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Mellow Velo said:
Pierre Bordry, president of the French Agency for the fight against doping (AFLD): "If this is the only way Floyd Landis and Arnie Baker explained, I will not hesitate to ask the judge to use the international arrest warrant" .

When did he say this Mellow? I'd be curious to know, and I'd like to see it come to a conclusion sooner rather than later. So hopefully this will get it closer to a resolution.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Mellow Velo said:
Landis and hackers

In its edition dated Friday, The World echoes of conflict of Floyd Landis with the French justice. The American rider was stripped of his victory in the Tour de France 2006 due to testing positive for testosterone. In his defense, Landis had put forward any evidence resulting from a hacking laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry. Convened last May 5 by the Central Directorate of Judicial Police, Landis and his coach Arnie Baker did not attend.

Investigators from the Central Office of the fight against technology crime revealed that the IP address of the sender of the counterfeit documents was none other than Baker. The setbacks of the former Phonak rider annoys the utmost Pierre Bordry, president of the French Agency for the fight against doping (AFLD): "If this is the only way Floyd Landis and Arnie Baker explained, I will not hesitate to ask the judge to use the international arrest warrant" he said in Le Monde.

L'Equipe translation.

Thanks for the translation. I thought the documents were posts of Chantenay lab records and the values were not changed. The French authorities (or non authorities) have asked the US to extradite both guys more than once. They don't look too worried on coffee rides around San Diego. I would hardly see either one of them set back any further at this point Landis is OTB most of the time and says he needs harder races in order to succeed,although he can't win the easier ones. Baker has long claimed that he could prove Landis was innocent and when tried in sports court Landis almost walked free, the verdict was far from overwhelming. Any criminal court in the US will toss a French anything in the trash given the rhetoric from both sides. A loose conviction in bicycle court will hardly get you a plane ticket and handcuffs. Baker can buy their cheese and wine up the street without much hassle. Encryption and firewalls are embarrassing when they are jumped over. US,France,Spain sports records are an open book even if they say "top secret".
 
Aug 13, 2009
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fatandfast said:
Thanks for the translation. I thought the documents were posts of Chantenay lab records and the values were not changed. The French authorities (or non authorities) have asked the US to extradite both guys more than once. They don't look too worried on coffee rides around San Diego. I would hardly see either one of them set back any further at this point Landis is OTB most of the time and says he needs harder races in order to succeed,although he can't win the easier ones. Baker has long claimed that he could prove Landis was innocent and when tried in sports court Landis almost walked free, the verdict was far from overwhelming. Any criminal court in the US will toss a French anything in the trash given the rhetoric from both sides. A loose conviction in bicycle court will hardly get you a plane ticket and handcuffs. Baker can buy their cheese and wine up the street without much hassle. Encryption and firewalls are embarrassing when they are jumped over. US,France,Spain sports records are an open book even if they say "top secret".

You need to read the CAS decision. It is not a "Bicycle Court" and it was an overwhelming decision that Landis was full of it
 
Race Radio said:
You need to read the CAS decision. It is not a "Bicycle Court" and it was an overwhelming decision that Landis was full of it

Agreed.

Landis was not even close ... the trial realllllly worked against him. The funny thing is, I initially felt bad for him. Not 'cause I thought he was not doping, but because I thought he was getting tagged for something many others have done/still do. I also sometimes wonder (as others have) if there was something else up with his particular positive, given his obvious level of bitterness.
 
Jun 27, 2009
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python said:
in my view his wiki defense went terrible.

perhaps he was able to collect some money to further his cause but overall it was a huge error because the public whilst initially sympathetic eventually turned on him. never underestimate the wider public opinion even if its wrong for years and decades. i trust the final effect of flandis' very public case was that the public opinion essentially validated the tribunal's conclusions that he was doped and was an enormously manipulative for which cas obliged him to pay usada.

Yup. No doubt Landis and his team felt there was some plot against him and there was some injustice involved in only him testing positive (for example, we know now that the whole T-Mobile team was juiced for the event, including Kloeden and Sinkewitz). But by feeding his fans lies and propaganda and soliciting their money to try to discredit the testing and enforcement agencies, he ended up alienating those who would have liked to support him. It just doesn't seem worth it when you consider that things like "Positively False" will be a mark of shame as long as they are around.

Landis and Hamilton underestimated the public's intelligence and paid the price. Here's hoping cycling fandom will be spared another Wiki defense, unless the accused cyclist was actually innocent and was prepared to use intellectually honest arguments.
 
ludwig said:
Yup. No doubt Landis and his team felt there was some plot against him and there was some injustice involved in only him testing positive (for example, we know now that the whole T-Mobile team was juiced for the event, including Kloeden and Sinkewitz). But by feeding his fans lies and propaganda and soliciting their money to try to discredit the testing and enforcement agencies, he ended up alienating those who would have liked to support him. It just doesn't seem worth it when you consider that things like "Positively False" will be a mark of shame as long as they are around.

Landis and Hamilton underestimated the public's intelligence and paid the price. Here's hoping cycling fandom will be spared another Wiki defense, unless the accused cyclist was actually innocent and was prepared to use intellectually honest arguments.

Actually, Hamilton's defence was much better (not that I bought it, LOL, but at least arguments were made that resulted in some level of debate about the tests themselves, rather than pure conspiracy theory).
 
ludwig said:
YBy feeding his fans lies and propaganda and soliciting their money to try to discredit the testing and enforcement agencies, he ended up alienating those who would have liked to support him.
Agree on all accounts. I actually was hoping for some time that it was a mistake or he would be cleared. I thought he doped, but was hoping it might not all fall on him when others were likely doping too...

...Then we got to his USADA and CAS hearings, and he, Arnie Baker, Will Geohagen, Maurice Suh, and his entire team behaved in a deplorable manner, for which the CAS came down hard on him. Highly criticizing his legal team for what amounts to bringing little objective debate to light, wasting their time and resources, and dinging him $100,000 in the process. (I think TBV must have shit a brick that day.)

The biggest thing Floyd is guilty of in my opinion is surrounding himself with these leeches, and them all taking us for fools. :mad:
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Agree on all accounts. I actually was hoping for some time that it was a mistake or he would be cleared. I thought he doped, but was hoping it might not all fall on him when others were likely doping too...

...Then we got to his USADA and CAS hearings, and he, Arnie Baker, Will Geohagen, Maurice Suh, and his entire team behaved in a deplorable manner, for which the CAS came down hard on him. Highly criticizing his legal team for what amounts to bringing little objective debate to light, wasting their time and resources, and dinging him $100,000 in the process. (I think TBV must have shit a brick that day.)

The biggest thing Floyd is guilty of in my opinion is surrounding himself with these leeches, and them all taking us for fools. :mad:
Landis is the one who initially made the forum post threatening to use Lemond's secret against him. No plausible deniability there. He was the ringleader.
 
Aug 4, 2009
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ravens said:
A little off-top on a good thread.

Very much agreed. Been on it for a few months. Slower, no more energy than before, which is the real problem, stiffness. I am very glad for no sexual side effects. Overall, a disappointment for my symptoms. And I REALLY resent low-test being called 'male menopause'. Maybe just my male pride, but what a ridiculous comparison.


Get implants every 20 weeks best way if you can find a Dr who will do it .Needs a Dr and nurse for 1/2 hour and all they get paid is $80.

Testogel is useless most people dont absorb it and what you do absorb you lose in sweat.

Implants are OK but form is up and down a bit. dont try the long acting injection you will dispurse it all in a few days while riding then nothing.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Oldman said:
Haven't read the last page of the thread but have discussed the likely source of the testosterone: Floyd's own banked blood. Someone IV'd his own stocked supply without benefit of testing. He would have received benefit, particularly if he was short of fluids the previous day. It was almost comical how his car and support could not get water to him on the previous day, with other teams blocking. Sounds like a conspiracy.I don't play into that but can imagine more than a few folks not wanting another American winner.

I agree that the most obvious reason for Floyds sudden spike in test/epitest ratio and subsequent positive for exogenous test is from an IV - probably his own blood bag.
While donating off season, the athlete must get an anabolic boost to quickly replace the blood loss. If you don't get the timing and dosage right during that period you end up with a positive blood bag.

On another note - a shot of testosterone would not have given Floyd a superhuman day - 450ml's of RBC's would!
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Epicycle said:
Landis is the one who initially made the forum post threatening to use Lemond's secret against him. No plausible deniability there. He was the ringleader.
as i mentioned in another post, he was the brains and the final decision maker.
flandis' deception campaign began way before he got busted when he hired allen lim and started posting his watts on line. the apparent 'transparency' was a sham intended to cover up his doping and giving his fans something that looked like 'i have nothing to hide'.

and again, it was flandis who insisted against the better advise of his lawyer to go public with wiki defense. in other words, he, not his advisers knowingly and conscientiously took a path of deception and defrauding of millions of fans.

so i acknowledge the poor and weird advisers he got but the primary responsibility for the nastiness of his defense must be placed squarely on flandis' shoulders. i lost all respect for him.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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I remember an interview with phil liggett and he said that testosterone stays in your system for a while and neither test before or after was positive. Can someone explain the amount of truth of this comment to me?
 
Aug 13, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
I remember an interview with phil liggett and he said that testosterone stays in your system for a while and neither test before or after was positive. Can someone explain the amount of truth of this comment to me?

It show how willfully ignorent Ligget is.

The ratio test is easy to fool if you balance your Test with Epi, or just wait to the morning for it to come down. The IRMS test is not a ratio test but a test for synthetic testosterone. Landis failed this several times.
 
Aug 31, 2009
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Mellow Velo said:
Echoing the plaudits.
Any thread that offers info, that isn't common knowledge is a major plus.
I've learnt a few new facts.

I like to compare stage 17 to the same stage in 2000, when Lance phoned Ferrari to find out whether Pantani had to be chased, or would blow.
The amount of water that FLandis used that day; I'd never seen the like.
That, and his "energetic" celebrations, at the finish in Morzine, were a huge red flag, for me.

Speaking of learning about info that isn't common knowledge, can you direct me to more about Lance calling Ferrari about Pantani? I hadn't heard that and it sounds interesting.

Great thread too, without all of the usual interruptions...
 
Aug 8, 2009
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Martinello said:
I agree that the most obvious reason for Floyds sudden spike in test/epitest ratio and subsequent positive for exogenous test is from an IV - probably his own blood bag...

Igualmente. If they caught him for something he didn't intentionally do, it kind of explains his bizarre initial reaction to the positive, and helps to explain why he'd want to fight the ruling.
 
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sashimono said:
Igualmente. If they caught him for something he didn't intentionally do, it kind of explains his bizarre initial reaction to the positive, and helps to explain why he'd want to fight the ruling.
It is extremely doubtful a couple of bags of red blood cells would contain enough testosterone to make him test positive the day after he was infused. It's impossible he would still test positive two or three days later. He also tested positive for synthetic testosterone on the last two days of the TDF including the Champs stage. He was using test patches or cream multiple times during the TDF.
 
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Epicycle said:
It is extremely doubtful a couple of bags of red blood cells would contain enough testosterone to make him test positive the day after he was infused. It's impossible he would still test positive two or three days later. He also tested positive for synthetic testosterone on the last two days of the TDF including the Champs stage. He was using test patches or cream multiple times during the TDF.

I don't know the answer to that. I don't know, but doubt; whether testorerone dosing in one night would allow him to climb like that, either. Perhaps he was doing both. The coverage of the previous stage had him being denied access to his team car for fluids and he allegedly became dehydrated. Taking on a bunch of water the next stage could have been a dramatic overreaction.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Supposedly Floyd has been talking about going after the Hour record. I am sure his old coach Ferrari will help with his "Preparation"
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Supposedly Floyd has been talking about going after the Hour record. I am sure his old coach Ferrari will help with his "Preparation"

His preparation is probably getting a passport and plane ticket to watch Fabian at some high altitude velodrome. If Landis tries and even sets a decent time it will open the floodgates for guys who really have the form.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Epicycle said:
It is extremely doubtful a couple of bags of red blood cells would contain enough testosterone to make him test positive the day after he was infused. It's impossible he would still test positive two or three days later. He also tested positive for synthetic testosterone on the last two days of the TDF including the Champs stage. He was using test patches or cream multiple times during the TDF.

I must be honest and admit that I have no endocrinological data to support that theory of mine. It would probably take some digging and extrapolation of various studies just to get close to an answer.
The theory of the testosterone-in-the-blood-bag was put forward by Bengt Saltin whos' opinion is slightly more qualified than mine:D