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Landis - 'Positively False'

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Mar 11, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I would however definitely recommend that documentary. Though he left some details out, and put a couple of opinions in, overall he did a thorough job and made a film well worth watching.

Do you know if it is true that the older 'pro-wrestler wannabe' brother is dead now?


Thanks for these posts everyone, very informative.
 

ravens

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Nov 22, 2009
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brianf7 said:
Testosterone all I can say is it wasnt the testosterone that gave him the boost he needed to ride that stage that put him back in the lead.

I have had testosterone replacement for past 10 years and I can tell you its not the wonder drug its made out to be.

Recovery OK it may help but on the other hand it also slows you down . eventualy it will improve strengh but at cost of leg speed.

Stiff soar joints you name it.

A little off-top on a good thread.

Very much agreed. Been on it for a few months. Slower, no more energy than before, which is the real problem, stiffness. I am very glad for no sexual side effects. Overall, a disappointment for my symptoms. And I REALLY resent low-test being called 'male menopause'. Maybe just my male pride, but what a ridiculous comparison.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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its always very speculative to attempt to guess someone’s motivation without knowing them personally or intimately. even then different family members may have completely different pictures of whats in your head.

i never met flandis but the sustained fury of his reactions, his almost maniacal bitterness tell me he leashed out against some deeply seated injustice, against some nasty betrayal this obviously loyal, devoted and good natured guy perceived. justly or wrongly.

Bro and alp may have touched upon what it may have been but again i really don’t think we know. not a psychologist by a long shot but i would not be surprised by an explanation pointing to flandis’ extreme emotionality or even some emotional instability.

then again flandis showed us his other darker side too or at least thats what i saw - calculating, indifferent, manipulative, rebellious, arrogant.

i trust his use of media and ’openness’ with allen lim numbers were part of the shrewd deception campaign instituted way before he was busted to promote himself and to cover his doping. thats not a doing of a simpleton

Alp may have a point that flandis is not stupid but simple and rendered his better judgment to some poor advisers. but i am skeptical this was the deciding factor in his animal like desperate fighting. to the last penny he owed. yo the last friend he had. to bitter divorce. to professional misery and personal destruction.

he flandis was the person making all final decisions. and he made a bunch i’d call vicious, spiteful and downright stupid. no need to rehash lemond threats etc etc etc.

his biggest mistake in my view was to try to win by going to wider public with the evidence. he even turned down his legal advisers suggestion not to do it.

there can be many views on that and i may even be criticized for saying this but the release of full package of evidence was a sure sign of vanity and arrogance in my view.

vanity because he new there are people in the public who will be able to string the truth together no matter the spin.

arrogance because he knew he was selling a lie and asking for our money (fff) to sell more of his lies.

this is exactly why i cant accept Armstrong’s stories. thats why i will never buy or read floyds or armstrongs books. they feel intellectually unclean. they give me a sense of the authors extreme arrogance because they discount wider publics intelligence, memory and conscience by attempting to manipulate us via darker means.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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WD-40. said:
Sorry for going off topic too.



I'm just looking out for you.

Again sorry for going off topic.

if you do and you are so sorry why not to use a pm? or you feel a lot of the posters need to know about their low test? may be.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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python said:
vanity because he new there are people in the public who will be able to string the truth together no matter the spin.

I wondered myself about how well his claims would fare in the public jury. My perception so far is they have gone awful, as should be the case, given that short of a conspiracy theory there is nothing to recommend his innocence. But Perhaps Floyd did will betting on the plasticity of public opinion:

Amusing reading..

Positively False: The Real Story of How I Won the Tour de France

59 Reviews
5 star: 42
4 star: 10
3 star: 4
2 star: 1
1 star: 2


Positively False is a great book about the politics of pro bike racing


This is one of those books you can't put down at night. Floyd is a
down to earth guy who tells it like it is about many aspects as a
professional bike racer and everything that goes all with, both
good and bad. You learn the inside scoop on european backward
thinking as well as the policies of the usada-a pathetic organization
at the taxpayers expense.
This book just might enspire you to get out on
your bike more.

Positively Innocent

There is no doubt Floyd Landis is innocent. Anyone who followed the TdF and understood his tactics and training, along with a wide-open field, knew that what he did was spectacular, but not so miraculous as to be humanly impossible. Floyd bonked on stage 16 and the inexperienced pelaton blew it on stage 17. Period. I waited a long time to hear Floyd's side of the story, although I instinctively knew he was innocent, very few came forward to help, so I was left with the uncertainty caused by the media hype and continuous bad information. It is a shame he has had to fight so hard to defend himself and it outrageous that he has to continue to fight to clear his name.

A great read, and convincing

I remember watching on TV the day Floyd Landis bonked famously on a Tour de France climb. I thought, "He's smart to give in to it. He'll have a great day tomorrow." We've all been there. A bad day very often precedes a great day, and vice versa. Thanks to his power meter data, it's clear that what appeared to be an inhuman turnaround the next day was actually a combination of smart team tactics, hard training (he was well within his normal hard load), physiologic recovery, and cagey use of water (dumped over his head to create a cool microclimate for himself). A sloppy French lab then created, purposely or inadvertently, a false positive, and an unfair process made it impossible (unclear if this is true yet) to rectify. It's sad how science is being used to advance causes these days, but it's nothing new. Even religion has dressed itself up as science in an attempt to advance its world view. Landis' book is refreshing. He's painfully blunt at times, and a tone of honesty permeates the storytelling, which is brisk by the way. This book reads clearly, you can hear Floyd's voice, and it is hard to put down. I enjoyed it thoroughly. After reading this and previously having read Arnie Baker's analyses and the ruling from the first arbitration panel (which captures enough lab flaws to leave you scratching your head at the fact that it still resulting in a guilty verdict), I believe that Floyd is innocent, and that he is being railroaded by a system out of control. A great cycling book

Great Clarity

It has always seemed that something was wrong with the drug testing across all sports. The first I recall was a swimmer from California who won a gold medal in the Munich Olympics and was already home when they said he had failed a drug test. It came out that there was some tiny amount in an antihistimine that he had disclosed to them prior to the Olympics and gotten approval for. In spite of that, his name was removed from the olympic record. At the time, and a number of times since then, we have had to wonder what is behind the irrational behavior by the official agencies.

In Floyd's case we see WADA and USADA, so obsessed with catching "cheaters" that they justify themselves in cheating. They had been wanting to take down the winner of the Tour for 7 years and are not willing to give this one up just because the test turned out to be invalid. These agencies are doing things that Mike Nifong would consider extreme. If they had to take these cases to a real court, they would not only lose the case, they might do some jail time for their behavior.


free floyd landis

i have to admit that i was skeptical about floyd's case when i first heard about the positive test. but after reading his history, and finding out about how bad the french lab is about following procedure, i am positive that floyd did not test positive in his urine after stage 17. what is really amazing is that the other three labs whose directors testified at the arbitration hearing would have labeled the urine sample floyd gave, and that the french lab tested, as a non-positive. let me say that again: ucla, the swiss lab, and the australian lab all testified that according to their protocols the sample from floyd was not positive. which leads me to this: how many other athletes have had their lives ruined by false positive results? scary.
the book goes through floyd's early life, his start in bicycle racing, and gets to the tour de france at the end. there is an addendum which goes through the case facts in detail. if you were ever scared by big brother possibly labeling you something that you most definitely are not, then by all means read this book. again, scary


Floyd needs to be exonerated now


The book (and Arnie's work) speaks for itself. It's a great read and for a layperson I learned a lot about how the Tour works. As a scientist, I am appalled at how the labs and anti-doping agencies are run. I would lose my job for such work.

I had my shadow of doubt in the beginning about Floyd and a lot of athletes for that matter. My doubt has since changed towards the anti-doping agencies. Read the book. You rock Floyd!
 
Sep 25, 2009
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sars1981 said:
I wondered myself about how well his claims would fare in the public jury.
in my view his wiki defense went terrible.

perhaps he was able to collect some money to further his cause but overall it was a huge error because the public whilst initially sympathetic eventually turned on him. never underestimate the wider public opinion even if its wrong for years and decades. i trust the final effect of flandis' very public case was that the public opinion essentially validated the tribunal's conclusions that he was doped and was an enormously manipulative for which cas obliged him to pay usada.
 
Apr 3, 2009
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Just wanted to add my .02 regarding how informative and interesting this thread has been. Considering how the threads in the Clinic usually end up I was expecting to encounter the same thing.

Like most folks I read Floyd's book, not because I was a fan of him, but as a fan of cycling in general and also curious about his case I thought it would be a good read. Well it turns out it was an okay read. In fact I don't think it took me longer than an afternoon to read it. What I took from it and also from his wiki defense was the errors made by the lab. As someone who works in the bio-pharma industry we are constantly made aware of how to complete, correct errors and maintain accurate records because a single record can cost millions and affect life saving meds. So I was surprised that the lab did not get sanctioned but then maybe it was outside the jurisdiction of the investigation.

Now this next question is a bit off topic but also related and maybe it has been addressed only for me to miss it. Anyway, how would it have been possible for Floyd to test positive on only one day? As the wearer of the Yellow Jersey he is supposedly tested everyday in yellow correct? Wouldn't his tests have shown other positives?
 
Mar 17, 2009
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python said:
if you do and you are so sorry why not to use a pm? or you feel a lot of the posters need to know about their low test? may be.
No but that's fair enough. I edited my post to remove what isn't relevant to this thread topic.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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cawright1375 said:
how would it have been possible for Floyd to test positive on only one day? As the wearer of the Yellow Jersey he is supposedly tested everyday in yellow correct? Wouldn't his tests have shown other positives?

The riders are pretty adept at flushing out/diluting dope from the body. Couldn't he have eliminated it?
 
Echoing the plaudits.
Any thread that offers info, that isn't common knowledge is a major plus.
I've learnt a few new facts.

I like to compare stage 17 to the same stage in 2000, when Lance phoned Ferrari to find out whether Pantani had to be chased, or would blow.
The amount of water that FLandis used that day; I'd never seen the like.
That, and his "energetic" celebrations, at the finish in Morzine, were a huge red flag, for me.
 
cawright1375 said:
Now this next question is a bit off topic but also related and maybe it has been addressed only for me to miss it. Anyway, how would it have been possible for Floyd to test positive on only one day? As the wearer of the Yellow Jersey he is supposedly tested everyday in yellow correct? Wouldn't his tests have shown other positives?

There is a two step procedure for testing for testosterone. First is a testosterone:epitestosterone ratio test. A normal ratio is 1:1, but it varies quite a bit. If a sample has a ratio of 4:1 or more then it is deemed a possible positive and the second step is done to determine if the testosterone is exogenous.

The 4:1 ratio is very generous. It gives athletes a lot of room to dope without going over the threshold. A moderate dose of testosterone will "clear" the system in a few hours. Use a little at night, and you should not test positive by the morning. In addition to this riders may be manipulating their ratios with other drugs.

When FLandis' other Tour samples were tested again with the CIR test, exogenous testosterone was found in several other samples. He was using test throughout the Tour but somehow screwed up on that one day. Probably every other contender was also using testosterone and none of them tested positive.
 
Mellow Velo said:
E
The amount of water that FLandis used that day; I'd never seen the like.

There was a good reason for that. First, I am pretty sure that FLandis dehydrated during stage 16 and that was the cause of his bad day. He was determined not to let that happen again. Second, he did not drink much of the water. He poured it over himself on a very hot day, giving him a cooling advantage that was not enjoyed by any of the chasers. I think Lim calculated the possible gain from that extra cooling. Third, he got seventy "turbo" bottles, which would have been another small advantage.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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BroDeal said:
There was a good reason for that. First, I am pretty sure that FLandis dehydrated during stage 16 and that was the cause of his bad day. He was determined not to let that happen again. Second, he did not drink much of the water. He poured it over himself on a very hot day, giving him a cooling advantage that was not enjoyed by any of the chasers. I think Lim calculated the possible gain from that extra cooling. Third, he got seventy "turbo" bottles, which would have been another small advantage.

But don't forget that blood doping eases dehydration and requiert more water than riding clean.

It's rumoured that Landis was "victim" of a bad timing, bad miwage of his doping program like Zülle, commonly called "socquette légère".
 
sars1981 said:
I wondered myself about how well his claims would fare in the public jury. My perception so far is they have gone awful, as should be the case, given that short of a conspiracy theory there is nothing to recommend his innocence. But Perhaps Floyd did will betting on the plasticity of public opinion

I gotta believe that book sort of self-selects for people at least somewhat pre-disposed to believe Floyd, and the reviews amplify that. It's pretty niche sports reading, to be sure.

I guess I say that because I'm so utterly dis-inclined to read it after the multiple fiascos I've already had the displeasure to watch develop in real time.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
It's also my opinion that the system did do Floyd wrong when it leaked his A sample to the media the same time he found out. Not that this makes him innocent, and I don't for a moment think LNDD did anything to him or there was any conspiracy, but that was not fair to him, and probably made him even more bitter.

Good post, but this is not correct. The LNDD never leaked any of Floyd's results. The news that Floyd tested positive came from his team Phonak. After the Tour Floyd embarked on the traditional post Tour Crit race tour. Suddenly he pulled out of a series of races he was to be paid $120,000 each for and disappeared. It was clear something was up and Phonak announced he was positive.

If anyone has any questions about the Landis case they should read the CAS decision as it completely refutes many of the blatant lies made by Floyd and his team.
http://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/sites/CaseLaw/Shared Documents/1394.pdf

Add to this mess the fact that Arnie Baker paid a hacker to hack into the LNDD computers and plant false documents and it is hard to feel bad from Floyd.
 
Race Radio said:
...
If anyone has any questions about the Landis case they should read the CAS decision as it completely refutes many of the blatant lies made by Floyd and his team.
http://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/sites/CaseLaw/Shared Documents/1394.pdf

Add to this mess the fact that Arnie Baker paid a hacker to hack into the LNDD computers and plant false documents and it is hard to feel bad from Floyd.
Good info. Thanks.

As stated before the testing for exogenous testosterone of all tested samples was what killed Landis legally (IMHO) on his trial:

42. On July 25, 2006, after completing IRMS analysis on the A Sample from the Appellant‟s Stage 17 (995474) urine sample, LNDD reported an Adverse Analytical Finding to the Conseil de Prévention et de Lutte Contre le Dopage based on the detected presence of exogenous testosterone or its precursors or metabolites. Between August 3 and 5, 2006, LNDD completed IRMS analysis on the B Sample from Sample 995474, which also resulted in an AAF. The Appellant was represented at the B Sample analysis by two attorneys and an expert, Dr. Douwe de Boer. The delta-delta values for both samples were:
A Sample USADA0186
B Sample USADA0352
Etio
-2.58
-2.02
Andro
-3.99
-3.15
5 Alpha
-6.14
-6.39

5 Beta
-2.15
-2.65
43. The Appellant‟s 5 Alpha metabolite in both samples exceeded the WADA positivity criteria of 3.0 ‰, within LNDD‟s measure of uncertainty of 0.8 ‰ (that is, more negative than -3.8 ‰).
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Good post, but this is not correct. The LNDD never leaked any of Floyd's results. The news that Floyd tested positive came from his team Phonak. After the Tour Floyd embarked on the traditional post Tour Crit race tour. Suddenly he pulled out of a series of races he was to be paid $120,000 each for and disappeared. It was clear something was up and Phonak announced he was positive.

If anyone has any questions about the Landis case they should read the CAS decision as it completely refutes many of the blatant lies made by Floyd and his team.
http://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/sites/CaseLaw/Shared Documents/1394.pdf

Add to this mess the fact that Arnie Baker paid a hacker to hack into the LNDD computers and plant false documents and it is hard to feel bad from Floyd.

Floyd's book is poorly written, he writes 2:1 about what a great guy he is and wants the reader to think a needle in his arm is implausible. Dr Arnie Baker has written lots of good books on bike racing. He also has coached lots of other racers with great results. He also has won dozens of races on both the road and track. There is no "fact" the Dr. Baker paid to gain illegal access to LNDD data/computers. Just because somebody you know is a scumbag doesn't make you one.

Floyd made a great decision while promoting his book to do it at pubs all over the US. A bunch of drunk cyclists who want to believe his anti-American plot BS against him paid @30-50 bucks to drink a pint and listen him. Floyd with his new hip and old attitude and in the back where he belongs. If you get the book for a dollar or free read it,otherwise skip the pain.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
Here is the link that I have. It looks to me that more than one rider is dirty based on retics. But in this link everything looked normal according to the interviewed people.

http://trustbut.blogspot.com/2008/08/blood-values-landis-garmin-and-that-485.html

Race Radio: Can you elaborate on this 48.5% suspicious number? Do you have any sources where somebody explains why it was suspicious? (Don't get me wrong, I know 48.5% is high for the third week but Ashenden almost cleared him by using the offscore)
Thanks.

Edit: I remember a member in this forum saying that in order for the blood transfusion to work better there needed to be a good amount of testosterone to be taken in by the body more rapidly. It looked like the extra blood did not work at all for Floyd and he had to take "extra" testosterone. Maybe somebody else with more knowledge on this can help me.

Haven't read the last page of the thread but have discussed the likely source of the testosterone: Floyd's own banked blood. Someone IV'd his own stocked supply without benefit of testing. He would have received benefit, particularly if he was short of fluids the previous day. It was almost comical how his car and support could not get water to him on the previous day, with other teams blocking. Sounds like a conspiracy.I don't play into that but can imagine more than a few folks not wanting another American winner.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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fatandfast said:
Floyd's book is poorly written, he writes 2:1 about what a great guy he is and wants the reader to think a needle in his arm is implausible. Dr Arnie Baker has written lots of good books on bike racing. He also has coached lots of other racers with great results. He also has won dozens of races on both the road and track. There is no "fact" the Dr. Baker paid to gain illegal access to LNDD data/computers. Just because somebody you know is a scumbag doesn't make you one.
.

I do not share your image of Arnie or opinion of his "Books" (Ebooks). I am not into drinking milk or grinding my knees to dust all year with resistance training

The French police do not share your view of his innocence. There is currently a summons for both Arnie and Floyd and they have not show up their court dates to address the charges. They also have a hacker willing to testify that Arnie paid him to hack the computers at LNDD. It should be no surprise as Arnie had the cajones to use the hacked documents in Landis' defense as well as emailing it to media outlets worldwide.
 
Oct 6, 2009
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That summons for questioning regarding the hacking - I've been wondering how that plays into Floyd's plans to ride for Rock Racing, and get back to racing the bigger races he prefers? Is he going to just not race in France? Or would he have to avoid racing in Europe altogether?
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Race Radio said:
I do not share your image of Arnie or opinion of his "Books" (Ebooks). I am not into drinking milk or grinding my knees to dust all year with resistance training

The French police do not share your view of his innocence. There is currently a summons for both Arnie and Floyd and they have not show up their court dates to address the charges. They also have a hacker willing to testify that Arnie paid him to hack the computers at LNDD. It should be no surprise as Arnie had the cajones to use the hacked documents in Landis' defense as well as emailing it to media outlets worldwide.

This is a round and rounder. I agree Dr.Baker is not John Grisham. His books are useful and because he has abandoned the "print" version to "ebook" for his further writings I think he has his eyes open. Most other cycling writers go one print and out and based on sales, finding a second publishing house to print anything about cycling or bike arcing is a stretch at best. Most photos included from pro training camps and mine own experience say the euro way of doing things makes you fast. If you race in the big chain ring why not train in it, lots of Belgian racers roll around in the big ring all day to "stress" their legs. Bike riding may be good for your knees and body, Bike racing is not good for your knees by design. Again convictions by association is a tricky business. because the French police want to ask a question does not make anybody guilty of anything. Emailing/leaking/printing data that was thought to help Flandis was probably done with his lawyers consent rather than his coaches. You refer to him as Arnie so I am going to make a leap and assume that you may know something of SW US bike racing, The guy is pretty small and can ride a sub 52 TT and is consistent on the road and track, he has been around racing and racers for 20+ years lots of data he imparts is from the Horner's,Hegg's,Roger's, Landis' and Klasna's and if women racers count for you from Bergland,Twigg on, he has raced and ridden with,not to mention all the other endurance athletes that use San Diego as a home base. When I started it was Oliver Starr,Leteri,Grylls,Fish, all national team members 7-11, Wheaties,Spago at the track and there was little Arnie. Point is, good doctor,racer and all around guy, Landis was everybody's mistake. Follow even one of Baker's zany plans and your knees may go but at least you will win a race or 2,he has the data to back it up. I never even placed until I ditched riding around in the small ring.
 
Landis and hackers

In its edition dated Friday, The World echoes of conflict of Floyd Landis with the French justice. The American rider was stripped of his victory in the Tour de France 2006 due to testing positive for testosterone. In his defense, Landis had put forward any evidence resulting from a hacking laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry. Convened last May 5 by the Central Directorate of Judicial Police, Landis and his coach Arnie Baker did not attend.

Investigators from the Central Office of the fight against technology crime revealed that the IP address of the sender of the counterfeit documents was none other than Baker. The setbacks of the former Phonak rider annoys the utmost Pierre Bordry, president of the French Agency for the fight against doping (AFLD): "If this is the only way Floyd Landis and Arnie Baker explained, I will not hesitate to ask the judge to use the international arrest warrant" he said in Le Monde.

L'Equipe translation.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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fatandfast said:
This is a round and rounder. I agree Dr.Baker is not John Grisham. His books are useful and because he has abandoned the "print" version to "ebook" for his further writings I think he has his eyes open. Most other cycling writers go one print and out and based on sales, finding a second publishing house to print anything about cycling or bike arcing is a stretch at best. Most photos included from pro training camps and mine own experience say the euro way of doing things makes you fast. If you race in the big chain ring why not train in it, lots of Belgian racers roll around in the big ring all day to "stress" their legs. Bike riding may be good for your knees and body, Bike racing is not good for your knees by design. Again convictions by association is a tricky business. because the French police want to ask a question does not make anybody guilty of anything. Emailing/leaking/printing data that was thought to help Flandis was probably done with his lawyers consent rather than his coaches. You refer to him as Arnie so I am going to make a leap and assume that you may know something of SW US bike racing, The guy is pretty small and can ride a sub 52 TT and is consistent on the road and track, he has been around racing and racers for 20+ years lots of data he imparts is from the Horner's,Hegg's,Roger's, Landis' and Klasna's and if women racers count for you from Bergland,Twigg on, he has raced and ridden with,not to mention all the other endurance athletes that use San Diego as a home base. When I started it was Oliver Starr,Leteri,Grylls,Fish, all national team members 7-11, Wheaties,Spago at the track and there was little Arnie. Point is, good doctor,racer and all around guy, Landis was everybody's mistake. Follow even one of Baker's zany plans and your knees may go but at least you will win a race or 2,he has the data to back it up. I never even placed until I ditched riding around in the small ring.

I agree on the big ring, I used it often, but Arnie lost me with the Landis fraud.

I learned long ago not measure a person by how fast they can ride. He was an integral part of the entire lie. He knew better but continued to develop and propagate it.