Landis "retires", done with cycle racing

[MR_Sarcastic]

Same standard for everyone.

If Armstrong is convicted, he will become a liar and cheat, just like Landis.

Convictions are made in court, not in the Press. (or internet forums)

When Landis was first nailed, I gave him the benifit of the doubt...(for 30 minutes) When he (or his minions) pulled that crap on LeMond, I decided that he was an evil toad..........(I am no big fan of LeMond, but he seems to be only slightly jerky, just as Armstrong seems to be even more of a jerk)

 

[kurtinsc]

armstrong as a bike racer isn't "too big to fail". he's hardly been relevant in the sport for 5 years except for a single 3rd place finish. who cares? the sport of bike racing has moved on without him.

armstrong as a celebrity is going to continue falling and people who have blindly latched onto his hope-train will come to terms with it pretty quickly. they'll feel sad for 2 or 3 ......................hours seriously tho, you're overstating his importance by a mile.

Well, I think his Tour de Suisse 2nd place, 3rd in the Tour of Luxembourg and Giro d'Italia 12th place have some relevance too. Not as much as a 3rd in the Tour... but some.

To be honest, if you remove all of the tour de france results from his resume... 2009 and 2010 were not much different at all from 1999-2005. Maybe better then some of those years.

 

[MR_Sarcastic]

I'm not on this thread to defend Armstrong, I'm here because of Landis.

It is my personal opinion that he is a toad, because of what he did to LeMond........You may not agree.

 

[Benotti69]

Same standard for everyone.

If Armstrong is convicted, he will become a liar and cheat, just like Landis.

Convictions are made in court, not in the Press. (or internet forums)

When Landis was first nailed, I gave him the benifit of the doubt...(for 30 minutes) When he (or his minions) pulled that crap on LeMond, I decided that he was an evil toad..........(I am no big fan of LeMond, but he seems to be only slightly jerky, just as Armstrong seems to be even more of a jerk)

if you are gonna continue with not guilty till charged on here you are trolling. the evidence is there, there is an investigation proceeding to prosecute him. so many ex team mates have been caught. he has tested positive for epo in retro testing for his 99 samples.

i again say you are trolling.

if you are not trolling go and search this forum and you'll find plenty of answers to what Armstrong is about.

end of.

 

[Francois the Postman]

"now how you snicker off before you get banned"

Does disagreeing with the mob get you banned on this forum????

Unlike others, I resist insulting forum members. I'll hold my judgement on the "rules" of, and my opinions of this forum until I can get a better handle on it.

Maybe I should have signed on as "I Hate Lance, and Wish He were Dead".
I might have started out on a better foot, that way.

No, it doesn't. They made me a mod even after I told some of the regulars here that some of their opinions were still based on speculations to various degrees. We moderate attitude, not opinion.

You might feel you are not insulting, but you admit that you will keep sniggering at those that are of the opinion that he is guilty, based on the information that they are aware of (or their gut instinct, or whatever). That attitude isn't welcome, especially if you think people can only have opinions if the courts agree with them.

We tolerate a lot here when it comes to the opinions that people have regarding cycling and cyclists. Speculation is welcome, with few areas off limits.

You think that Landis is a toad. You aren't the first to say so here, and you won't be the last. That won't get you into trouble with us.

But we are not as tolerant when it comes to coming here purely to snigger and disrupt threads. You say you are not a troll. I invite you to spend less time gunning at posters and more at the issues.

And I invite everyone to get back on topic, and kill this spat here and now. Hint.

 

[lean mean &green]

Well, I think his Tour de Suisse 2nd place, 3rd in the Tour of Luxembourg and Giro d'Italia 12th place have some relevance too. Not as much as a 3rd in the Tour... but some.

To be honest, if you remove all of the tour de france results from his resume... 2009 and 2010 were not much different at all from 1999-2005. Maybe better then some of those years.

yep, the sport will come to a standstill when someone with those results stops racing.

read a little more carefully and apply context, otherwise you're just a distracting influence. thanks.

 

[MR_Sarcastic]

Sorry to upset the applecart.
Before I started posting, I realized that many posters here were pro Landis and anti-Armstrong. I was just try to bring a little balance to the forum before being shouted down.
I will attempt to tone it down just a little.
Hate to get banned on my first day.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Thanks for that. Now everyone move on please.

 

[VeloFidelis]

armstrong as a bike racer isn't "too big to fail". he's hardly been relevant in the sport for 5 years except for a single 3rd place finish. who cares? the sport of bike racing has moved on without him.

armstrong as a celebrity is going to continue falling and people who have blindly latched onto his hope-train will come to terms with it pretty quickly. they'll feel sad for 2 or 3 ......................hours seriously tho, you're overstating his importance by a mile.

And you're mistaking me for an Armstrong fan. "Too big to fail"? where did you get that? I have met the guy several times, and I don't much like him. But to stand at the start of a Giro stage in Innsbruck or Milan and witness the impact of his celebrity in a fan turn out that even the the local press estimates to be 40% higher than expected just because he is there, is to start to understand his impact on the sport.

Make no mistake, he is going to fall. And the crater that it leaves is likely to have a bigger impact than you foresee. While you are preoccupied with what his recent palmares may be, understand that the average cycling "fan"; the ones the sponsors of the sport like RaboBank, Radio Shack, HTC, and Omega Pharma are trying to reach, know simply that he won the Tour and he beat cancer. If you know more than that you are in a single digit minority percentile of whom they consider to be the fans.

When the stink that is about to be permanently attached to Armstrong turns their majority of fans into disheartened doubters of cycling, they will take their sponsorship money and move onto the next big thing along with those "fans". And it will be back to you and me, and millions of knowledgeable fans who actually know what a Classic is; but there will be an impact. And I will not be surprised if we are not commenting on this Forum a year from now and the consensus is: Holy Sh!t! What happened?... where's the TV coverage... where are the title sponsors? I hope more than anybody that I am wrong, but I fear that I am not. I guess we will all find out together.

 

[red_flanders]

Hard proof= Conviction.

Please clarify "conviction". You mean "sanction" by a sporting body, or conviction in a court of law?

You do understand that "evidence" is stuff like test results and eyewitness and expert testimony. "Conviction" only means someone in a position to do so believed enough of the evidence to convict. Conviction is not evidence nor is it proof, so claiming the bar for belief to be "conviction" simply means you're not going to form an opinion until the authorities come to a conclusion based on evidence. You will have an opinion when it's given to you.

That's not exactly a beacon of independent thinking now is it?

 

[fatandfast]

armstrong as a bike racer isn't "too big to fail". he's hardly been relevant in the sport for 5 years except for a single 3rd place finish. who cares? the sport of bike racing has moved on without him.

armstrong as a celebrity is going to continue falling and people who have blindly latched onto his hope-train will come to terms with it pretty quickly. they'll feel sad for 2 or 3 ......................hours seriously tho, you're overstating his importance by a mile.

I don't know what sport you have been watching and from where but the sport of cycling takes every cue from Armstrong. He gets more start money than any other pro rider, even as you pointed out w some pretty standard results by his standards. He generated buzz all over the world w his comeback.fans reacted to his inclusion in the TDU,ToC,TDF in record numbers. The replacement game that is going on in cycling is because of the Landis's not the Lances. Phonak and Bahati both folded because of Landis. He is a one man cycling tsunami. IF you need to unpromote your race invite him. Ouch gave him the swim and flushed him with the toilet contents. His 2006 season was his best and it's highlighted by being DQ'd as a doper..so if that a highlight..hurray! Armstrong's impact on cycling of all kinds is profound from charity rides to major tours he has the midas and Floyd had the minor..everything about Landis is minor. US cycling fans should really worry about post Lance TV coverage..there are 2 sets of numbers and the viewers wo Lance are tiny. His cash raising machine has marched on while competing
w Haiti, Katrina and now Queensland..gone on without him?? Landis retired..Larry King, Leno, Conan..Oprah..The View??nobody cares if the guy lives or dies..the single biggest mistake he ever made is comparing himself to Armstrong in any way.

 

[lean mean &green]

And you're mistaking me for an Armstrong fan. "Too big to fail"? where did you get that? I have met the guy several times, and I don't much like him. But to stand at the start of a Giro stage in Innsbruck or Milan and witness the impact of his celebrity in a fan turn out that even the the local press estimates to be 40% higher than expected just because he is there, is to start to understand his impact on the sport.

Make no mistake, he is going to fall. And the crater that it leaves is likely to have a bigger impact than you foresee. While you are preoccupied with what his recent palmares may be, understand that the average cycling "fan"; the ones the sponsors of the sport like RaboBank, Radio Shack, HTC, and Omega Pharma are trying to reach, know simply that he won the Tour and he beat cancer. If you know more than that you are in a single digit minority percentile of whom they consider to be the fans.

When the stink that is about to be permanently attached to Armstrong turns their majority of fans into disheartened doubters of cycling, they will take their sponsorship money and move onto the next big thing along with those "fans". And it will be back to you and me, and millions of knowledgeable fans who actually know what a Classic is; but there will be an impact. And I will not be surprised if we are not commenting on this Forum a year from now and the consensus is: Holy Sh!t! What happened?... where's the TV coverage... where are the title sponsors? I hope more than anybody that I am wrong, but I fear that I am not. I guess we will all find out together.

you're getting warmer. lance promotes lance, not bike racing. either way, the increased interest he may have brought was based upon celebrity and it was leaving one way or the other - in disgrace or because of the fact he's 40 years old. from a sporting perspective his influence is of little consequence going forward.

the cancer community will feel betrayed but let's face it, they've got more important concerns. i expect them to move on rather quickly too.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know what sport you have been watching and from where but the sport of cycling takes every cue from Armstrong. He gets more start money than any other pro rider, even as you pointed out w some pretty standard results by his standards. He generated buzz all over the world w his comeback.fans reacted to his inclusion in the TDU,ToC,TDF in record numbers. The replacement game that is going on in cycling is because of the Landis's not the Lances. Phonak and Bahati both folded because of Landis. He is a one man cycling tsunami. IF you need to unpromote your race invite him. Ouch gave him the swim and flushed him with the toilet contents. His 2006 season was his best and it's highlighted by being DQ'd as a doper..so if that a highlight..hurray! Armstrong's impact on cycling of all kinds is profound from charity rides to major tours he has the midas and Floyd had the minor..everything about Landis is minor. US cycling fans should really worry about post Lance TV coverage..there are 2 sets of numbers and the viewers wo Lance are tiny. His cash raising machine has marched on while competing
w Haiti, Katrina and now Queensland..gone on without him?? Landis retired..Larry King, Leno, Conan..Oprah..The View??nobody cares if the guy lives or dies..the single biggest mistake he ever made is comparing himself to Armstrong in any way.

Nope.

Landis was certainly not the only Phonak positive. A final nail in the coffin? Perhaps, but Phonak's underwriter still has a protour team.

Bahati's only significant cash sponsor was what Floyd brought to the table. Team Bahati was over before it started.

 

[Cobblestoned]

"now how you snicker off before you get banned"

Does disagreeing with the mob get you banned on this forum????

Unlike others, I resist insulting forum members. I'll hold my judgement on the "rules" of, and my opinions of this forum until I can get a better handle on it.

Maybe I should have signed on as "I Hate Lance, and Wish He were Dead".
I might have started out on a better foot, that way.

That is the perfect entry to paradise and 7 virgins. It's the codeword for that big gate...

Hell, it's hot down here.

 

[VeloFidelis]

you're getting warmer. lance promotes lance, not bike racing. either way, the increased interest he may have brought was based upon celebrity and it was leaving one way or the other - in disgrace or because of the fact he's 40 years old. from a sporting perspective his influence is of little consequence going forward.

the cancer community will feel betrayed but let's face it, they've got more important concerns. i expect them to move on rather quickly too.

And you're getting colder. If you can't understand the difference between the affects of just another retiring sports idol, and the impact of a hundred million global fans who don't otherwise have a big emotional investment in cycling, but who now feel that they have been personally lied to?... you must be living in a cave.

I think you are confusing the sport of cycling with the business of cycling. Races will continue to be run, and riders will continue to compete, but the money and the media coverage will be the casualty. Check out the economic impact on the PGA of Tiger Wood's recent dalliance and departure from the the sport. Most fans can shrug off Tiger lying to his wife. Lance has personally lied to his entire global fan base. Don't underestimate what that impact of betrayal is going to mean to the sport.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If your allegations are true, wouldn't you think that the IRS would be hot on Armstrong's heels?

Getting back to my original question.....

1) Landis collected money by claiming that he was innocent.
2) Landis admits that he wasn't innocent.
3) People go to jail for that sort of thing.

Try again -
Landis asked for money for his defence - and everyone is entitled to a defence - and the money collected went straight to that, so there is no case for people to take.
Were they lied to, yes - but they should write it off as an idiot tax.

Same standard for everyone.

If Armstrong is convicted, he will become a liar and cheat, just like Landis.

Convictions are made in court, not in the Press. (or internet forums)

When Landis was first nailed, I gave him the benifit of the doubt...(for 30 minutes) When he (or his minions) pulled that crap on LeMond, I decided that he was an evil toad..........(I am no big fan of LeMond, but he seems to be only slightly jerky, just as Armstrong seems to be even more of a jerk)

You're right, convictions are only made in Court.

And while we will ignore the obvious hypocricy in that you feel Landis should go to jail for taking money even though he has not been 'convicted'.......

But guess what, you are on an interent forum,.
So if your standard is 'convictions' then you should excuse yourself from visiting forums but keep an eye out in the press for Armstrongs name.

 

[VeloCity]

Same standard for everyone.

So once more, what does that say about Pantani and Ullrich et al? If it's the same standard for everyone, then we'll have to assume that you don't think they were doping, since none of them - per your position re: Armstrong - were ever "convicted", either.

If Armstrong is convicted, he will become a liar and cheat, just like Landis.

Convictions are made in court, not in the Press. (or internet forums)

That's odd, I don't recall Landis ever being convicted in court.

 

[lean mean &green]

And you're getting colder. If you can't understand the difference between the affects of just another retiring sports idol, and the impact of a hundred million global fans who don't otherwise have a big emotional investment in cycling, but who now feel that they have been personally lied to?... you must be living in a cave.

huh? you said it yourself, they weren't emotionally invested in anything other than lance. ie they're leaving the sport along with him no matter how he makes his exit. also, he's as old as dirt so that was happening soon either way. there were going to be fewer advertisers no matter what. the impact with or without the doping allegations isn't much different. the reaction, and the way to capitalize, would be for the cycling community to distance themselves as much as possible by saying good riddance.

I think you are confusing the sport of cycling with the business of cycling. Races will continue to be run, and riders will continue to compete, but the money and the media coverage will be the casualty. Check out the economic impact on the PGA of Tiger Wood's recent dalliance and departure from the the sport. Most fans can shrug off Tiger lying to his wife. Lance has personally lied to his entire global fan base. Don't underestimate what that impact of betrayal is going to mean to the sport.

it's pretty safe to assume i'm living in a brick and mortar domicile, i'm not confused, i'm at least as informed as you if not more, and that i've exercised a great deal of restraint throughout our dialogue.

 

[VeloFidelis]

huh? you said it yourself, they weren't emotionally invested in anything other than lance. ie they're leaving the sport along with him no matter how he makes his exit. also, he's as old as dirt so that was happening soon either way. there were going to be fewer advertisers no matter what. the impact with or without the doping allegations isn't much different. the reaction, and the way to capitalize, would be for the cycling community to distance themselves as much as possible by saying good riddance.



it's pretty safe to assume i'm living in a brick and mortar domicile, i'm not confused, i'm at least as informed as you if not more, and that i've exercised a great deal of restraint throughout our dialogue.

Gee... Thanks for the incredible restraint. But without trying to be confrontational, you are consistently missing my point. These fans that we speak of... they weren't about to leave the sport behind when Lance retires again. They didn't before. They may not know a sprinter from a climber, but the know the Tour and they call themselves fans. They would continue to tune in and identify with the next cycling phenom. Why wouldn't they?... you do, I do... The difference is that you and I will continue to long after Lance is exposed and disgraced, but we are a small percentage of today's cycling fandom. They unfortunately will not, and while you may not miss them, the sponsors and the sport definitely will.

Without this scandal Lance would not disappear from cycling; no more than Merckx or Hinault have. He would continue to be a personality and a galvanizing influence on the sport. Now he will be a pariah, and every former and future star of cycling will suffer the indignation of doping accusations, and the dismissive attitude among those former fans that cycling is about as real as professional wrestling.

You make think his fall from grace will be well deserved pay back, and only affect him, some former team mates, staff and owners. You may be right. I hope you are.

I am of the opinion that while it is inevitable and certainly justified, the fallout will have a greater impact on cycling than we can foresee right now, and that we will all find ourselves wishing that he had just remained in quiet retirement and faded into cycling history as a former star and current SOB.

I guess we can both come back in a year and more accurately assess which opinion was more valid. I hope it's yours, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Runitout]

Gee... Thanks for the incredible restraint. But without trying to be confrontational, you are consistently missing my point. These fans that we speak of... they weren't about to leave the sport behind when Lance retires again. They didn't before. They may not know a sprinter from a climber, but the know the Tour and they call themselves fans. They would continue to tune in and identify with the next cycling phenom. Why wouldn't they?... you do, I do... The difference is that you and I will continue to long after Lance is exposed and disgraced, but we are a small percentage of today's cycling fandom. They unfortunately will not, and while you may not miss them, the sponsors and the sport definitely will.

Without this scandal Lance would not disappear from cycling; no more than Merckx or Hinault have. He would continue to be a personality and a galvanizing influence on the sport. Now he will be a pariah, and every former and future star of cycling will suffer the indignation of doping accusations, and the dismissive attitude among those former fans that cycling is about as real as professional wrestling.

You make think his fall from grace will be well deserved pay back, and only affect him, some former team mates, staff and owners. You may be right. I hope you are.

I am of the opinion that while it is inevitable and certainly justified, the fallout will have a greater impact on cycling than we can foresee right now, and that we will all find ourselves wishing that he had just remained in quiet retirement and faded into cycling history as a former star and current SOB.

I guess we can both come back in a year and more accurately assess which opinion was more valid. I hope it's yours, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I agree with all of this...

...but let justice be done to this sport, though the heavens fall.

Catch them all. The dopers, the DSs, the doping doctors, the corrupt organisers and officials. Especially the corrupt officials. Get rid of them, make an example of them.

I would rather this sport be a tenth of its size than let this farce continue. A sport that sups on this festering boil needs to learn a new diet, however much pain it will cause.

 

[Benotti69]

I agree with all of this...

...but let justice be done to this sport, though the heavens fall.

Catch them all. The dopers, the DSs, the doping doctors, the corrupt organisers and officials. Especially the corrupt officials. Get rid of them, make an example of them.

I would rather this sport be a tenth of its size than let this farce continue. A sport that sups on this festering boil needs to learn a new diet, however much pain it will cause.

i would rather the sport returned to a complete amateur status in order to rid it of its demons, but that is not going to happen.

it is going to take a lot to get rid of the likes of the uci under Verbruggen/McQuaid and until they go it will not change at the top.

the power to clean up the sport lies with riders. till they stand up to the doping it wont go away.

the new generation will suffer from the fall out of the Amstrong legacy as lots think it is a doping sport, but lets be honest it is and if they dont want to suffer that label well they can change it

 

[la.margna]

"Please explain why Floyd isn't in jail??"

1) The substantial part of money in Floyd's fairness fund (approx. 70%) was given by guys who presumably have in some way known about or even supported or encouraged doping practices at USPS/DC

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704457604576011490820993006.html

So if they wanted, it would be easy for them to sue Floyd, but for some very strange reason, which tells a lot, lot, lot to the neutral observer, they have not sued Floyd (yet?).

2) Floyd wants to pay back every single dollar once he is economically in the position to do so: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5929/Floyd-Landis-aims-to-reimburse-Floyd-Fairness-Fund-donors.aspx

Btw, the Pharmstrong/Liestrong scam is probably x-fold the Floyd scam and in contrast to Floyd he still continues to lie...


----With regard to your adored idol (don't know if my assumption is correct though) LA---

Rule #1 for evildoers like LA: create a charity or foundation to distract from your true image in order to always give you arguments about your good intentions + bull****

Rule #2 for evildoers like LA : play a role of fighting for the good in a war that can never be won. your charity will pay for your jet fuel and expenses forever!

People who want do good honestly and from the heart...
1) don't have to tell us about it all the time and use it as PR-weapon
2) don't cheat/steal in the first place just to give a few crumbs for charity PR purposes away

 

[la.margna]

I'm not on this thread to defend Armstrong, I'm here because of Landis.

It is my personal opinion that he is a toad, because of what he did to LeMond........You may not agree.

I agree with you. But we all make mistakes. And once we realise it and excuse for it, which takes a lot and that's why I have forgiven Floyd for all this, because now he finally speaks the truth and lost a lot.

 

[volkswagen59]

Good bye Floyd. I'll never forgive you for ruining my only Tour de France experience so far.

To claim that doping in cycling is in any way equivalent to the primitive gun laws in the USA just shows how stupid you are.

You also claim that "anyone caught taking EPO must be stupid." So what does that make your IQ?

 

[Benotti69]

Good bye Floyd. I'll never forgive you for ruining my only Tour de France experience so far.

To claim that doping in cycling is in any way equivalent to the primitive gun laws in the USA just shows how stupid you are.

You also claim that "anyone caught taking EPO must be stupid." So what does that make your IQ?

Floyd never got caught taking EPO