Le Tour '18 stage 12: Bourg-Saint-Maurice > Alpe d'Huez 175k

[Big Doopie]

Re: Re:

Read my other post after that one. I responded to all that
The stage breakdown clearly shows Indurain gaining on LeMond stage after stage, flat or time trial

tactics, tactics would have been entirely different throughout the race.

anyway - in my mind - there is no doubt about who deserved to win that tour, considering what we know now.

 

[woodburn]

Re: Re:

Riding for GC and domestiquing are totally different things. Yes, you pull but then you can chill to the finish.

Not when you finish 11th on GC. If he'd have "chilled to the finish" he'd have finished half an hour behind and taken it easy in the time trials instead of riding them faster than LeMond.

Fact is, Indurain dropped time on Alpe and other places because he wasn't strong enough.

No, Indurain dropped 15 minutes on Alpe because he spent most of the stage hammering on the front on the flat while LeMond sat in the wheels because Pensec was in yellow.

LeMond, however, didn't have the chance to attack and gain time until the final stages. Even up Luz Ardiden, LeMond attacked and Indurain just sat on the whole way to allow him to sprint for win. Wouldn't work same way if Indurain was GC contender.

You're misremembering. While LeMond took more pulls, they both worked. And it wasn't a sprint, LeMond just couldn't take the pace and eventually lost the wheel. Unless you consider riding in the saddle for 500m without any accelerations "a sprint"

This discussion is "Was Indurain clearly strong enough to win the Tour even before he won it?"
The answer is an unequivocal yes.

Here are the time gaps between the two. On every other stage they finished s.t.
Read it and tell me exactly where, in your words, "Indurain dropped time because he wasn't strong enough"

Prologue (ITT):
LeMond
Indurain +13 seconds

Stage 3 (TTT)
Z
Banesto + 1m05s

Stage 4 (flat)
Lemond
Indurain + 17 seconds (crash)

Stage 7 ITT
Indurain
LeMond + 47s

Stage 11 (mountain. The stage we discussed, where Indurain buried himself on the front for Delgado long before they even got to the Alpe)
LeMond
Indurain +11m55s

Stage 12 (mountain ITT)
Indurain
LeMond +13s

Stage 13 (flat-ish)
LeMond
Indurain +36s

Indurain was in the front group with LeMond descending to the finish line when he was ordered to stop and wait for Delgado who was in the chasing group. So he did. Once again it wasn't a problem with the legs

Stage 14 (medium mountain)
Indurain
LeMond +10s

Stage 15 (mountain)
Indurain
LeMond +6s

Stage 20 (ITT)
Indurain
LeMond +14s

You don't think finishing 11 minutes back on the Alpe was part of him chilling? Don't forget LeMond crashed on that stage, too. Rewatch the climb again and see how much work LeMond did on the climb. He and Bugno followed the whole time. It's part of why Pensec was able to decrease the gap so much. If he was working, the gap would have been much larger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO2F0u2GtkE

The discussion isn't if Indurain was a contender. He obviously was one of the stronger riders. The discussion is whether he would have beaten LeMond. We obviously will never know. The individual stage results are valuable but you also have to factor the race situation. LeMond never attacked the race until the Pyrennes.

 

[franic]

Re: Re:

Also, everything to do with indurain has to be taken with a grain of salt as his meteoric assent from strong (though ridiculously large) rider to absolute dominator also went hand in hand with the latest clinic advances.

I don't see dissimilarities...

 

[franic]

Re: Re:

No boy. You clearly have not watched cycling in the past. How many group sprints have you seen here?

I can remember one involving your avatar. If I remember correctly, Gianni Bugno won from a sprint of 5 riders.
There were some tactical similarities to today's stage. LeMond was at the time riding for Z-Peugeot. His team mate Pensec was in the yellow jersey. LeMond was in a very strong break, but didn't push. Pensec was dragged up the Alpe by super dom Robert Millar, losing less than a minute and keeping the yellow yersey.

Pensec lost the jersey to Chiapucci in an MTT on the next day and LeMond went on to win the Tour.

Going back a long way (I guess nearly 30 years).

Would you call that one an epic stage? I would call it a boring Alpe d'Huez

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Thomas just Superb and an incredible ambassador for the Sport. Great stage. Only spoilt by the absolute scum that Boo the riders.

better with boos than piss get thrown and fans attacking them

Yes, I suppose so.

There’s nothing at all wrong with booing riders. It’s an entirely civilized way to show disapproval of the behaviour of people with a public profile or platform.

+1

Of course there is something wrong with booing riders

Very small minded ignorant people do that

 

[GraftPunk]

Or maybe people who simply disagree with them. Or would you have preferred piss, etc.?

 

[franic]

Re: Re:

Of course there is something wrong with booing riders

Very small minded ignorant people do that

As somebody pointed out, it's just a way to express dissent. Much better booing than punching like it has happened in the past. It is actually a duty to stand against fraudsters when you see a fraud.
I know it is upsetting when you fully believe Sky's story, like people in the past believed the US Postal story. It's hard to accept there are people out there that don't share your admiration for the Kenyan champion and all his teammates. Isn't his just a very nice story? A loser turned into a champion! Like the story of the cancer survivor turned into a Tour de France winning machine.

 

[Blanco]

So Geraint Thomas and Tom Dumoulin are the two best climbers in this Tour! What a farce

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

Of course there is something wrong with booing riders

Very small minded ignorant people do that

Explain please. Booing is literally voicing disapproval - in a non violent way. That's ignorant how? Small-minded how? These people have no chance to voice their displeasure by discussing with the rider, so this is what they do.

 

[Big Doopie]

Re:

So Geraint Thomas and Tom Dumoulin are the two best climbers in this Tour! What a farce

Pure climbers? Absolutely not.

Can climb the fourth col of the 11th stage of a GT better than most? Absolutely.

Those two things are very different.

Hinault was not a better (pure) climber than Herrera either. However, he almost always destroyed him in the mountains of the Tour.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

I love the way you try to make a 32 year old sound like an old man with a walking stick lol.

32 is not old. It’s not even old for an endurance athlete. It is however absolutely, impossibly ancient as an age for an athlete to make a transformational step forward in events he has been competing in professionally for over a decade. In any endurance sport. Nobody in the history of cycling has gone from having zero GT top 10s in their thirties to a GT winner. Not one rider of any shape, size, spread of talents, specialty, style or level of ability. Not one rider from any era.

Look back through the list of GT winners over the last, say, 75 years. There are dominant riders, lucky riders, old riders, young riders, riders who win everything, riders with relatively moderate results, climbers, TT men, all rounders, guys who were always leaders, guys who were mostly domestiques. What there is not is even one rider in his thirties with a long and undistinguished GT GC record suddenly winning the Tour or any other GT.

Cherish whatever miracles you choose to believe in. Invent or find some unique factor that held Thomas and only Thomas back for so long, a Welsh river parasite or something. But don’t try to convince anyone with any knowledge of the history of the sport that this pattern of development is typical, expected, normal or nothing out of the ordinary. This kind of thing - a 32 year old with zero GT top 10s suddenly seriously competing for the Tour - has never happened before, to any rider at any point.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

So the French how boos of Sky still rooted for Virenque after he was judged guilty two times, that's called double standard

Booing isn't exclusive to the French. The Tour has fans observing in person from all over the world. Might be some Brits in their booing too.

 

[del1962]

I expected ignorant small minded trollls on here to think its ok to boo

They show themselves for who they are

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

So Geraint Thomas and Tom Dumoulin are the two best climbers in this Tour! What a farce

Pure climbers? Absolutely not.

Can climb the fourth col of the 11th stage of a GT better than most? Absolutely.

Those two things are very different.

Hinault was not a better (pure) climber than Herrera either. However, he almost always destroyed him in the mountains of the Tour.

Terrible example. Hinault weighed about 62kg.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Of course there is something wrong with booing riders

Very small minded ignorant people do that

Explain please. Booing is literally voicing disapproval - in a non violent way. That's ignorant how? Small-minded how? These people have no chance to voice their displeasure by discussing with the rider, so this is what they do.

Troll along

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

I expected ignorant small minded trollls on here to think its ok to boo

They show themselves for who they are

I hope you're taking notes.

Of course there is something wrong with booing riders

Very small minded ignorant people do that

Explain please. Booing is literally voicing disapproval - in a non violent way. That's ignorant how? Small-minded how? These people have no chance to voice their displeasure by discussing with the rider, so this is what they do.

Troll along

Explain how that is trolling? That was 100% ernest.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

I expected ignorant small minded trollls on here to think its ok to boo

They show themselves for who they are

Why is it ignorant or small minded to peacefully express your disapproval of the character, behaviour or role of public figures?

 

[franic]

Re:

I expected ignorant small minded trollls on here to think its ok to boo

They show themselves for who they are

Hey, maybe you can moderate yourself. If there is an ignorant troll in this forum that seems to be you.

 

[TMP402]

@koendekort

On another note. Please respect every and ALL riders. Let us all just do our race and please stop the booing. Enough now. Cycling is such a great sport, don't ruin it.

 

[Amazinmets87]

Re: Re:

So the French how boos of Sky still rooted for Virenque after he was judged guilty two times, that's called double standard

Booing isn't exclusive to the French. The Tour has fans observing in person from all over the world. Might be some Brits in their booing too.

False. Horner had his first top 10 at age 38 and won a GT a month shy of his 42nd birthday.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Of course there is something wrong with booing riders

Very small minded ignorant people do that

Explain please. Booing is literally voicing disapproval - in a non violent way. That's ignorant how? Small-minded how? These people have no chance to voice their displeasure by discussing with the rider, so this is what they do.

Yep, in fact it's more small-minded to mindlessly happy-clap something that is happening in front of you, even if you find it massively incongruent. Kudos to the boo-ers, if they don't support what the likes of Sky or Dumoulin are doing to a race that they have put in a lot of time and effort to attend, then of course they should be able to show disapproval.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

I expected ignorant small minded trollls on here to think its ok to boo

They show themselves for who they are

Why is it ignorant or small minded to peacefully express your disapproval of the character, behaviour or role of public figures?

Boo politicians if you must but not sportsmen, what crime has Geraint Thomas ever done that anyone should boo him

 

[Angliru]

Re:

I expected ignorant small minded trollls on here to think its ok to boo

They show themselves for who they are

Slinging the insults loosely as you are doesn't give you much credibility nor does it make you any better than those that you condemn.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

So the French how boos of Sky still rooted for Virenque after he was judged guilty two times, that's called double standard

Booing isn't exclusive to the French. The Tour has fans observing in person from all over the world. Might be some Brits in there booing too.

False. Horner had his first top 10 at age 38 and won a GT a month shy of his 42nd birthday.

...that has what to do with my post??? Seriously, are you sure you're responding to the right post?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

I expected ignorant small minded trollls on here to think its ok to boo

They show themselves for who they are

Why is it ignorant or small minded to peacefully express your disapproval of the character, behaviour or role of public figures?

Boo politicians if you must but not sportsmen, what crime has Geraint Thomas ever done that anyone should boo him

I think you are well aware what “crime” some of the booers believe he or his team have committed. They may well be wrong, but it’s no different in principle from Armstrong getting booed.