Lefevere Got a Lawyer!!

Page 3 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
May 23, 2010
516
0
0
BigMac said:
1 - No. You have to obey. This is not the Banana Republic. You do what the organisers tell you to do, period. Absolutely no point in following your rival when the race is supposedely neutralised.

2 - The organisers made a joke out of themselves to start with. Time penalties on Quintana and the rest that went it him is the only descent way of try and put this whole patethic situation back on track.
Firstly, the whole point is that it was unclear what the organisers were telling the riders to do. Not all the riders knew. Some were getting their information from twitter for god sake. If it were cut and dry then yeah fair enough. But it wasn't. There was a lot of uncertainty and with that uncertainty Uran et al should not have assumed Quintana knew what was happening. They did and paid for it. Bad luck.

Yes. The organisers made a joke of themselves with the way they attempted to deliver their message to neut the descent. The only thing that makes a bigger joke of them is for them to do what you are suggesting in an effort to remedy the situation.

Simply put they are not going to arbitrarily apply time penalties to people based upon how naughty they have been. Don't be ridiculous.
 
BigMac said:
Quintana sayd HE DID NOT SEE the motorbike with the flag during the descent, when there are multiple photos of him behind a moto with a comissaire holding said flag. There was no way he did not see the bike while it was in front of his group for at least the first 7 bends of the descent. He shot himself in the foot right there. Should have chosen a better excuse. Now that it is clear there was a neutralisation, I can only see fit that Quintana and the rest get the time they got on the descent taken.
You say 7 curves. The race was 'neutralized' for the first 6. After this, it was considered safe enough and good to go. If you are in a formula 1 race behind the safety car until curve 6, better make sure you are almost touching the one in front for when the race restarts, and don't go drink a coffee near the top! A lot of teams seem to have 'believed' / 'hoped' / 'whatever miraculous other force in the mix' / .. that the stage would be neutralized forever? Did any of them asked how long it was neutralized? And above all: what exactly can be seen by an attack? Touching your brakes less? Descending times on the Stelvio were not exactly stellar, even by Quintana. A guy I know has the best time on Strava, approx. the same time as Quintana (if compared to Kelderman who is on Strava and was in the big group).

BigMac said:
Lefevere - as a worried DS with integrity - has all the reason in the world to protest. And what is this rubbish saying Urán should not have let Quintana get away? That he totally deserved what he got because he lacked a winner instinct ? The stage was supposedely neutralised, why on earth should he follow? All those shoulds, all those hypothetical situations... Like a poster eloquentely said in the race thread, if you cannot trust the race organisers, then it becomes total anarchy.
Why on earth should Uran not follow Quintana? Did he think Quintana would be in a bar in the valley waiting for them after the neutralization was done? Why on earth would he just 'believe' that he can get off the bike, put on a raincoat, see a lot of left-behind riders climb over the Stelvio and think those will be hold back by the commissaires because Uran is taking it easy?

In anyway, RCS screwed thing big time. Lefevere has all the right to sue them, but the Giro won't be won back in any way.
 
Volderke said:
You say 7 curves. The race was 'neutralized' for the first 6. After this, it was considered safe enough and good to go. If you are in a formula 1 race behind the safety car until curve 6, better make sure you are almost touching the one in front for when the race restarts, and don't go drink a coffee near the top!
Again.
The 6 hairpins thing was not in the original recording. Unless other messages that I'm not aware of were relased, we should assume riders didn't know for how long the red flagged motos would be there.

I'd even go as far as say that the message implied the motos would be there for the whole length of the descent, for my understanding of italian (which is perfect btw).
 
SafeBet said:
Again.
The 6 hairpins thing was not in the original recording. Unless other messages that I'm not aware of were relased, we should assume riders didn't know for how long the red flagged motos would be there.

I'd even go as far as say that the message implied the motos would be there for the whole length of the descent, for my understanding of italian (which is perfect btw).
"we should assume riders didn't know for how long..."

When I don't know how long it will take my girlfriend to be ready to go out, even if I know it will take half an hour, I make sure I'm stand-by and ready ;)
 
Volderke said:
"we should assume riders didn't know for how long..."

When I don't know how long it will take my girlfriend to be ready to go out, even if I know it will take half an hour, I make sure I'm stand-by and ready ;)
Good for you! How is that relevant to the situation in which couple of riders break the rules by passing a motorcycle?
 
Aug 16, 2011
10,845
0
0
neineinei said:
That's what you get for attacking Unzués man when he has a flat in the Tour. Days, weeks and months goes by, and everything is calm. Then, when you think you are safe, in the snow on Stelvio, the scorpion says hello.
lol, good one. :D
 
damian13ster said:
Good for you! How is that relevant to the situation in which couple of riders break the rules by passing a motorcycle?
check the rules first and come back later.
I will help you:
race organizer decides to make it a little safer.
Jury doesn't know anything (and they are the only ones responsible for neutralization etc.).
Riders choose to ignore safety measures and just keep riding (maybe not very sportive, but not breaking any rule).

RCS speaking before their turn, jury decides nothing 'illegal' happened, and teams just want some fairness so they propose to reduce time gaps with 2 minutes. Still the OFFICIAL jury says no, as there were no irregularities regarding how Quintana etc. did their ride.

here you go.
 
So if the race radio which stated not to pass the motocycles is not an official way of communication between RCS, jury or other decision making bodies then what is?

Are riders supposed to ignore EVERYTHING that is said through the radio because after the race UCI jury might say it had no basis?
 
damian13ster said:
So if the race radio which stated not to pass the motocycles is not an official way of communication between RCS, jury or other decision making bodies then what is?

Are riders supposed to ignore EVERYTHING that is said through the radio because after the race UCI jury might say it had no basis?
Exactly. RCS decided to do something without the UCI jury, and most of the riders/DS in the cars followed orders from RCS without realizing what was the legal value, and what would be the consequences. So now we have a big mess, and as always, athletes and teams are the ones that suffer from the mess the organizers in this Giro like to make.
 
The ones that trusted the messages broadcast lost time
The ones that didn't get the message and/or decided to make their own rules won time

Maybe smart, certainly not sportsmanlike. Quintana would probably win this Giro with glue on his wheels, so why do it like this? But the behaviour of the race director is the true disgrace: or you race, or you don't - make a decision and stick to it. Don't go lying afterwards or shifting the blame to some radio guy. RCS made ****-ups in the past (Milano-San Remo for instance) and should take responsability.
 
Sep 21, 2009
2,978
0
0
BigMac said:
1 - No. You have to obey. This is not the Banana Republic. You do what the organisers tell you to do, period. Absolutely no point in following your rival when the race is supposedely neutralised.

2 - The organisers made a joke out of themselves to start with. Time penalties on Quintana and the rest that went it him is the only descent way of try and put this whole patethic situation back on track.
If the race is neutralised and someone attacks you chase him and tell him to stop in your best Cancellara style.
 
This gives us two factors to consider.

1) if Evans is saying he was struggling to see anything in front of him, surely the same would have applied to other riders. In which case surely there is some lessening of the issue of whether Quintana's group ignored flags that they may not have been able to see?
2) Evans' group descended two minutes slower than the Quintana group, which also matched the pace of Cataldo, and Alexis Vuillermoz was a minute faster than that as well. In that, are we seeing the benefit of going in a smaller group (in that, if you can't see and there are only a small number of riders around, you feel safer than if you can't see and there are lots of riders around, therefore you travel faster?) playing into the hands of the escapees who didn't really escape? Or is it that they really pushed on, it's just that Vuillermoz is a much better and/or more fearless descender?

Either way, the gap was increased by a slow descent from the Urán group. A gap was created because the group stopped, Evans said no more than 30 seconds. How far back were they after the six hairpins that RCS are now claiming were all that was covered by the motorbike following insturctions? The rest of the time was lost under supposedly normal descending conditions (!) and so I don't see how Lefevere could ever claim it back.

What's more, if people were going to keep complaining about Quintana having the maglia rosa, how different would it be if Nairito got slapped with an arbitrary time penalty, Urán took the maglia rosa back and then defended it to win the Giro? It would be no different, it would still be controversial, it's just that one rider winning it would carry the stigma of having won it due to taking advantage of an organizer screw-up, the other winning it would carry the stigma of having only won it due to being handed a massive and only partly appropriate gift.

At this point, no answer is satisfactory, however since Quintana now has extended his lead beyond the two minute penalty, we're about as close to a satisfactory resolution as we can reasonably expect: Quintana looks like winning by more than he gained from the Stelvio descent.
 
You cannot know that. Quintana now gained 6 seconds on Hesjedahl. Would he have gained 2 minutes on Aru and the rest? He failed to get rid of all (or even any) of the main contenders on mountains in any stage of this Giro.
 
I believe it was under handed and not in the spirit and movistar and europcar know that hence the confusing explanations.

They had 2mins at the base but had they been together I doubt the gaps would be as big, pity as he has shown in last week he had enough to win anyway
 
So to you, what would be satisfactory? Does Quintana need to win by over 2 minutes today to legitimize his win to you? If they applied an arbitrary penalty and gave the jersey back to Urán, would that not strike you as just as much a gift from the organizers due to their awful handling of the situation as the gains Quintana made on the Stelvio descent?

Ultimately, if Quintana, Hesjedal, Rolland and their companions in the group can be shown to have deliberately ignored safety instructions or clear communications from the race directors, they can be thrown out of the race and the problem can be solved. However, we also know that communications from the race directors were anything BUT clear, and we also don't know how the instructions - if any were provided at all - were communicated from the teams to the riders. And if they haven't deliberately ignored safety instructions or clear communications, then they would be within their rights to complain about their gains being nullified or removed because a lot of the others interpreted the instructions differently and thought they had carte blanche to stop for coffee.

The organizers have created a situation whereby nobody's happy and nobody can be happy with the outcome. If he isn't penalized, Quintana has to win by a sizable amount to prove he could have won without it, and if he is Urán needs to win by a sizable amount so that he would have won without the penalty too, because people are not in agreement over whether a penalty should or should not be applied.
 
Jagartrott said:
You cannot know that. Quintana now gained 6 seconds on Hesjedahl. Would he have gained 2 minutes on Aru and the rest? He failed to get rid of all (or even any) of the main contenders on mountains in any stage of this Giro.
Wait for the Zoncolan.
+ he put 2 full minutes into a group of so-called favorites on Marteltall. That was epic and something you only see once in 5 years.
+ he won the MTT on the Grappa EASILY

Enough said. About this topic: Lefevere has every right to sue RCS. But leave the riders out. It doesn't make sense to pick on them.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
So to you, what would be satisfactory? Does Quintana need to win by over 2 minutes today to legitimize his win to you? If they applied an arbitrary penalty and gave the jersey back to Urán, would that not strike you as just as much a gift from the organizers due to their awful handling of the situation as the gains Quintana made on the Stelvio descent?

Ultimately, if Quintana, Hesjedal, Rolland and their companions in the group can be shown to have deliberately ignored safety instructions or clear communications from the race directors, they can be thrown out of the race and the problem can be solved. However, we also know that communications from the race directors were anything BUT clear, and we also don't know how the instructions - if any were provided at all - were communicated from the teams to the riders. And if they haven't deliberately ignored safety instructions or clear communications, then they would be within their rights to complain about their gains being nullified or removed because a lot of the others interpreted the instructions differently and thought they had carte blanche to stop for coffee.

The organizers have created a situation whereby nobody's happy and nobody can be happy with the outcome. If he isn't penalized, Quintana has to win by a sizable amount to prove he could have won without it, and if he is Urán needs to win by a sizable amount so that he would have won without the penalty too, because people are not in agreement over whether a penalty should or should not be applied.
As you say Quintana has removed the controversy about the time gap with his current margin. My question re Evans comments is about the danger to the riders. Based on what Evans and others have said about the conditions, the Stelvio should have been neutralised and the race restarted on the flat after the descent. It sounded as bad as Milan San Remo and at a higher altitude and they actually did the correct thing there even though once again there was confusion with the organisers decisions at MSR as well which is what Lefevre also complained about re the race officials and their poor organizing and communication to the teams and riders.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS