LeMond and Trek Settle

[flicker]

It appears you have not been paying attention as this is exactly what Greg has been talking about. Lance would like you to believe that is is all about him, but it isn't. With the exception of a couple of tame quotes over 10 years the vast majority of what Greg has said has been about the Doctors and DS' that promote organized doping and the UCI that ignores it.

Lance lies and Greg tells the truth. In my opinion when Greg targets a jerk like Lance its going to come back at Greg. I do not care what Lance says.

Its just everytime Greg makes a comment about Lance or Contador or Flandis it comes out like spoiled buttermilk to me. That is just me.

About Lance, I know people say I kiss Lances' kazoo but he is a great champion. Also champion for the sport whether he is a doper as most in the clinic claim or not.
That to me over rides his lies and contradictions.

 

[pmcg76]

Let's be clear on this. GREG has no evidence that is admissible in a court of law. it may well be that people who have told him things would themselves be able to offer testimony in a court.

The people who claim to have personally witnessed something that Lance did - these people have every right to name Lance specifically. By all means, if you are an individual who has real evidence against a specific athlete, then feel free to name that athlete specifically. But Greg does NOT have that evidence, he simply has a good-faith belief that other people have that evidence. For me, that's the line in the sand where he needs to shut up.

I don't want to get into the quagmire of all the evidence against Lance. IMHO, it's a all full of holes. The sheer quantity is compelling, but that's also true of JFK, the moon landing, and 9/11. I'm not claiming he's innocent. But I am claiming there's been a very broad-based smear campaign against Lance for a long time, much more so than against Greg. Maybe it's because he's really a doper, or maybe it's just because he's a world-class ***, but IMHO there's now way to differentiate at this point.

It's certainly plausible that Lance is not eager to hash this out in court, and this brings things back on topic. It's in Trek's best interest to do what's best for Lance. But only up to the point where it looks like the poop might hit the fan. Then Trek would bail, and leave Lance high and dry. Corporations are loyal only to profits, not people (and in fact if a corporation is publicly traded, they have a legal obligation to put profits first, although I don't think Trek is public).

This all comes back to the question of whether or not it was right for Trek to ask Greg to shut up in the first place. It's obviously consistent with their profit motives. And in my opinion it's consistent with basic ethics, as I've stated above. Of course, the case would come down to whether or not it was consistent with the contract. By allowing the doping issue into the case, the judge seemed to be saying that what Greg did or did not know about the doping would have a bearing on whether or not there was a contract violation.

Trek would be nothing without Lance, the two are directly linked. I am 100% sure that if crap about Lance was revealed, this would have an immediate impact on their sales. Lance is the poster boy, especially in the US. Who else would step into his shoes if he wasnt around?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Trek would be nothing without Lance, the two are directly linked. I am 100% sure that if crap about Lance was revealed, this would have an immediate impact on their sales. Lance is the poster boy, especially in the US. Who else would step into his shoes if he wasnt around?

Fisher or Bontrager? Maybe Travis Brown.

 

[Digger]

Lance lies and Greg tells the truth. In my opinion when Greg targets a jerk like Lance its going to come back at Greg. I do not care what Lance says.

Its just everytime Greg makes a comment about Lance or Contador or Flandis it comes out like spoiled buttermilk to me. That is just me.

About Lance, I know people say I kiss Lances' kazoo but he is a great champion. Also champion for the sport whether he is a doper as most in the clinic claim or not.
That to me over rides his lies and contradictions.

And that for me is what I can't fathom about you. A guy who bullies clean riders and started a protest where the peleton spat on a whistleblower is alot of things....great champion no. His words on Sastre and VDV...great champion? Him riding practically one race a year...great champion?

 

[The Crusher]

His results prior to Ferrari certainly do not signify a 'tremendously talented athlete' in relation to this peers anway. And his physical attributes show this.

So winning major European classics doesn't reach the level of tremendously talented? What about being the RR World Champion at 22 years old? What about competing at the same level as the top triathletes in the world when he was only 15 years old?

You're allowed to think Lance is a doper, but you aren't allowed to rewrite history to get there.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Lance lies and Greg tells the truth. In my opinion when Greg targets a jerk like Lance its going to come back at Greg. I do not care what Lance says.

Its just everytime Greg makes a comment about Lance or Contador or Flandis it comes out like spoiled buttermilk to me. That is just me.

About Lance, I know people say I kiss Lances' kazoo but he is a great champion. Also champion for the sport whether he is a doper as most in the clinic claim or not.
That to me over rides his lies and contradictions.

Lance plays kazoo?
You certainly seem willing to put up with a lot of crap just because the guy (with illegal help) can ride a bike fast. If he , as you say, is a "great champion" it has been acheived largely through lies and manipulation. Is that really what you look up to in life?

 

[flicker]

Trek would be nothing without Lance, the two are directly linked. I am 100% sure that if crap about Lance was revealed, this would have an immediate impact on their sales. Lance is the poster boy, especially in the US. Who else would step into his shoes if he wasnt around?

I have a TREK and I love it. Same as a LeMond bike to me. They are made in the same factory no? Great product + mine is made in the USA which I support. US manufacturing= more jobs.

 

[eleven]

Lance plays kazoo?
You certainly seem willing to put up with a lot of crap just because the guy (with illegal help) can ride a bike fast. If he , as you say, is a "great champion" it has been acheived largely through lies and manipulation. Is that really what you look up to in life?

Do you believe that everyone at the front of the peloton over the past decade was doping?

For the record, I tend to believe that to be the case.

 

[RTMcFadden]

Its just everytime Greg makes a comment about Lance or Contador or Flandis it comes out like spoiled buttermilk to me. That is just me.

I'm in the same boat. Greg was the reason I started to look at my bike as something more than transportation. I drove from Paris to Albi in 1999 and stood at the finish line from 12:00 to 5:30 just so that I could see the race. Not because some american was wearing the yellow jersey, but because Greg had worn it previously.

To me, his involvement in the Landis affair was completely inappropriate, as he really had no direct knowledge of anything. He was used by the USDA lawyers, and he should have known better.

 

[Big GMaC]

It appears you have not been paying attention as this is exactly what Greg has been talking about. Lance would like you to believe that is is all about him, but it isn't. With the exception of a couple of tame quotes over 10 years the vast majority of what Greg has said has been about the Doctors and DS' that promote organized doping and the UCI that ignores it.

Here is an interview from early 1998 where Greg goes into detail about how Italian doctors have distorted the sport

http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/lemond98.html

This has been his theme for the last 15 years

This article is also a good illustration how Greg has matured and learned since then, with his greater understanding of the benefits of EPO regarding performance and how his opinion of Lance has changed over the years. I think one of Greg's greatest difficulties is that he has always been too trusting or naive, basically too much of a nice guy. It has been seen on multiple occasions

1. Manipulation by the DSes at La Vie Claire in 1985 re.Hinault and the Tour
2. Belief in Lance, despite his own knowledge of how racing worked by '98 and Lance's previous lack of GT GC success
3. Belief in Floyd (showed some old style racing, cracking like they used to then recovering), there is a very good article about how he met Floyd's father in America after stage 17, before the positive and told him how admiring he was of his son, all of course prior to the USADA mess

there are probably more...

 

[flicker]

This article is also a good illustration how Greg has matured and learned since then, with his greater understanding of the benefits of EPO regarding performance and how his opinion of Lance has changed over the years. I think one of Greg's greatest difficulties is that he has always been too trusting or naive, basically too much of a nice guy. It has been seen on multiple occasions

1. Manipulation by the DSes at La Vie Claire in 1985 re.Hinault and the Tour
2. Belief in Lance, despite his own knowledge of how racing worked by '98 and Lance's previous lack of GT GC success
3. Belief in Floyd (showed some old style racing, cracking like they used to then recovering), there is a very good article about how he met Floyd's father in America after stage 17, before the positive and told him how admiring he was of his son, all of course prior to the USADA mess

there are probably more...

Which goes to show human failings. I do not hold Greg responable we all make mistakes.

 

[buckwheat]

I'm in the same boat. Greg was the reason I started to look at my bike as something more than transportation. I drove from Paris to Albi in 1999 and stood at the finish line from 12:00 to 5:30 just so that I could see the race. Not because some american was wearing the yellow jersey, but because Greg had worn it previously.

To me, his involvement in the Landis affair was completely inappropriate, as he really had no direct knowledge of anything. He was used by the USDA lawyers, and he should have known better.

How the hell do you know? You know what kind of person Floyd is, ie the LeMond abuse revelation/extortion issue. Yet you believe Floyd.

I don't.

LeMond has been honest and correct about every single one of his assertions re doping in cyling.

 

[Race Radio]

To me, his involvement in the Landis affair was completely inappropriate, as he really had no direct knowledge of anything. He was used by the USDA lawyers, and he should have known better.

On a phone call with Lemond Landis admitted he doped but said coming clean would "Hurt too many people". Greg counseled him that living the big lie would eat him and told Floyd about how his refusal to confront his childhood abuse ate at him for years, eventually causing him serious problems with his family relationships. It wasn't until he went into therapy and confront these issues that he was able to repair some of his issues.

Greg was conflicted about how to deal with Floyd's admission. When Floyd found out that Greg had mentioned his conflict to a few people Floyd went on a internet message board and threatened to out Greg's sexual abuse if Greg did not shut up.

Put in the same position I think most of us would hope to have the courage to stand up to the attempted intimidation. By any measurement Greg was right, the big lie did eat Floyd.

 

[RTMcFadden]

How the hell do you know? You know what kind of person Floyd is, ie the LeMond abuse revelation/extortion issue. Yet you believe Floyd.

I don't.

LeMond has been honest and correct about every single one of his assertions re doping in cyling.

The crux of the case was about the science and he brought nothing to the table in that regard. He ended up being the circus act around the issue. That is, his sole purpose was to impugn the integrity of Landis. That's a no-win situation because the first response was to go after his. That's just the way things work. In the end I don't think his testimony was ever a factor in the decision. That's why I said that he was taken advantage of. Others have said he's a bit naive and I think there's no better illustration of that than him letting himself get caught in the middle of this case.

 

[Race Radio]

The crux of the case was about the science and he brought nothing to the table in that regard. He ended up being the circus act around the issue. That is, his sole purpose was to impugn the integrity of Landis. That's a no-win situation because the first response was to go after his. That's just the way things work. In the end I don't think his testimony was ever a factor in the decision. That's why I said that he was taken advantage of. Others have said he's a bit naive and I think there's no better illustration of that than him letting himself get caught in the middle of this case.

No case is only about the science.

So if Landis had called you and told you he doped, then threaten you if you told anyone you would have kept quite?

Good thing some are not so easily intimidated.

 

[The Crusher]

On a phone call with Lemond Landis admitted he doped but said coming clean would "Hurt too many people".

ESPN characterized this quite a bit differently than you are.

Landis called LeMond to chew him out for making publicly critical statements after Landis' positive drug test was confirmed. LeMond's recounting of that dialogue, while intriguing, hardly constituted a smoking gun.

"I would hope and encourage you to come clean," LeMond said he told Landis.

"What good would that do," LeMond said Landis replied. "If I did, it would destroy a lot of my friends and hurt a lot of people."

Is this a confession, or just a cold assessment of the reality that confession is a very good option even if you're innocent?

The really important thing to me is that at no point did Greg say that Floyd confessed. If Floyd had said "Hi Greg, I did it I doped", why on Earth would Greg leave that out if his testimony?

And by the way, this is one of the reasons I maintain doubt about much of the potential testimony against Lance. We hear it reported that people are out there who can say for sure that Lance doped. But we heard here that Floyd confessed to Greg. This "fact" of a confession has entered the common body of knowledge that the public maintains, and yet the actual evidence doesn't support this "fact".

The devil really is in the details.

 

[buckwheat]

The crux of the case was about the science and he brought nothing to the table in that regard..

The science said Landis doped. Landis tried to impugn the integrity of the testing and the testers. Therefore his integrity came into play.

Threatening witnesses and hacking into the website to alter documents don't speak too highly as to Floyd's integrity, do they?

He ended up being the circus act around the issue...

So you're accused of misconduct at work and you speak to one of the leading authorities in your line of work, about issues central to that work, and this is a circus? In case you haven't noticed, all of professional cycling isnow a circus.

That is, his sole purpose was to impugn the integrity of Landis. .

Nice inferral of LeMond's sole purpose. My take is LeMond's purpose is to call em as he sees em.

That's a no-win situation because the first response was to go after his. That's just the way things work.

Maybe extortion is "just the way things work" in your life. In my life, when that happens to me, all retribution is in play, hopefully legal, but if need be, burning their house down. That's the way things work in my life.

In the end I don't think his testimony was ever a factor in the decision. That's why I said that he was taken advantage of. Others have said he's a bit naive and I think there's no better illustration of that than him letting himself get caught in the middle of this case.

He's a legend of the sport for crying out loud. He has every right to inject himself into any controversy surrounding that sport. He's an expert for goodness sake. Open your eyes and watch all the politcal punditry on TV with every Tom, ****, Jane, Harry, anyone who has even the most tangential relationship to politics or opinion.

People buy into this LA crap that everything should be a big secret so he can make his millions. Wake up.

 

[Race Radio]

ESPN characterized this quite a bit differently than you are.



Is this a confession, or just a cold assessment of the reality that confession is a very good option even if you're innocent?

The really important thing to me is that at no point did Greg say that Floyd confessed. If Floyd had said "Hi Greg, I did it I doped", why on Earth would Greg leave that out if his testimony?

And by the way, this is one of the reasons I maintain doubt about much of the potential testimony against Lance. We hear it reported that people are out there who can say for sure that Lance doped. But we heard here that Floyd confessed to Greg. This "fact" of a confession has entered the common body of knowledge that the public maintains, and yet the actual evidence doesn't support this "fact".

The devil really is in the details.

Greg's testimony at trial was different that what you say.

LeMond said he urged Landis to come clean if his backup “B” sample also came back tainted.

He said in his phone call he encouraged Landis to help his sport and “more importantly, help himself.”

Floyd's response:
“At this point, he said, ’I don’t see anything that ... what good would it do? If I did, it would destroy a lot of my friends and hurt a lot of people,”’ LeMond testified.

Who would confess if they are innocent?

 

[flicker]

He's a legend of the sport for crying out loud. He has every right to inject himself into any controversy surrounding that sport. He's an expert for goodness sake. Open your eyes and watch all the politcal punditry on TV with every Tom, ****, Jane, Harry, anyone who has even the most tangential relationship to politics or opinion.

Sorry, when Greg associates or accuses Floyd or Lance Greg sullies his own reputation.
Whether Greg is right or wrong his association with those two is an embarrassment to Greg. Greg hurts his own reputation when he opens his mouth. Greg needs a handler.

 

[The Crusher]

Who would confess if they are innocent?

Do you pay attention to what happens to convicted dopers?

Let's see, I've just been popped for doping, but I know I'm innocent. I could proclaim my innocence despite lack of evidence. My prize is a two year ban, a hefty fine, and the lasting hatred of many fans, riders, directors, and sponsors.

Or I could confess, stand a fair chance at a shortened ban, no fine, and if do a good job of acting repentent and talking about how bad doping is, also stand a good chance of being welcomed back with open arms.

That's a tough choice. Let's see... let me do the math here... carry the four... oh what a hard problem.

 

[Bronstein]

Do you pay attention to what happens to convicted dopers?

Let's see, I've just been popped for doping, but I know I'm innocent. I could proclaim my innocence despite lack of evidence. My prize is a two year ban, a hefty fine, and the lasting hatred of many fans, riders, directors, and sponsors.

Or I could confess, stand a fair chance at a shortened ban, no fine, and if do a good job of acting repentent and talking about how bad doping is, also stand a good chance of being welcomed back with open arms.

That's a tough choice. Let's see... let me do the math here... carry the four... oh what a hard problem.

Basso and Vinokourov seem to be doing quite well at the moment. Though I think that some convicted dopers seem to have been 'marginalised' (e.g. Rasmussen), it's inaccurate to say that all convicted dopers are hated and struggle to find employment after their bans. Therefore it would be illogical for Landis to confess if in fact he was innocent.

 

[buckwheat]

Sorry, when Greg associates or accuses Floyd or Lance Greg sullies his own reputation.
Whether Greg is right or wrong his association with those two is an embarrassment to Greg. Greg hurts his own reputation when he opens his mouth. Greg needs a handler.

Sorry, I don't agree one iota. LeMond is very close to the sport. He's great friends with a Julien DeVries who was privy to Armstrong's doping, and Greg knows tons of other stuff. He became aware that Armstrong was working with Ferrari for 5 years before it became public knowledge.

Heck, the general public has tons of knowledge about Lance being a scumbag in just about every aspect of his life except possibly his charity; and that's probably just a shield and a front.

Why do you think LA and FL attacked LeMond so hard? Because the truth is very damaging to their existence and it's not like smear campaigns are unheard of.

Damn, a lot of people listen to Sarah Palin and she's an absolute moron.

 

[Digger]

So winning major European classics doesn't reach the level of tremendously talented? What about being the RR World Champion at 22 years old? What about competing at the same level as the top triathletes in the world when he was only 15 years old?

You're allowed to think Lance is a doper, but you aren't allowed to rewrite history to get there.

In relation to other pro cyclists he was good....but definitely not 'tremendously talented'. Loing 20 mins a time on mountain stages in hte Tour...losing 6 mins a time on TT. Good yes....tremendously talented in terms of pro cyclists no.

 

[RTMcFadden]

Stop grinding the ax for a second and read what I said objectively. From my perspective, we're in agreement on almost everything.

The science said Landis doped. Landis tried to impugn the integrity of the testing and the testers. Therefore his integrity came into play.

Exactly. Questioning the integrity of the Lab and the Scientists is fair game. Base on the CAS decision, they faired well.

Threatening witnesses and hacking into the website to alter documents don't speak too highly as to Floyd's integrity, do they?

Hacking into the website to alter the documentation pretty much raps up the integrity issue. I think they could have done without the threats to a witness thing.

So you're accused of misconduct at work and you speak to one of the leading authorities in your line of work, about issues central to that work, and this is a circus? In case you haven't noticed, all of professional cycling isnow a circus.

One, I don't think LeMond is a leading authority, he's a leading figure. Nevertheless, as previously pointed out, there really was no confession, so again, I don't see the value of this testimony.

Nice inferral of LeMond's sole purpose. My take is LeMond's purpose is to call em as he sees em.

I'm not suggesting it was LeMond's intention. I believe it was the sole intention of the legal team trying the case. And that's how and why they took advantage of him. They put him in a position that just made him look bad, in my eyes. And more importantly, it didn't add anything new.

Maybe extortion is "just the way things work" in your life. In my life, when that happens to me, all retribution is in play, hopefully legal, but if need be, burning their house down. That's the way things work in my life.

Extortion is a two-way street that both sides engaged in. That's the way the game is played. It's the role of the prosecution to use whatever means, within the confines of the law, to prove you guilty. That includes trying to get you to admit your guilt. It's the role of the defense to use whatever means, within the confines of the law, to prove you innocent. When you base the argument on integrity, you may win, but don't walk away unscathed. That's what happened to LeMond.

He's a legend of the sport for crying out loud. He has every right to inject himself into any controversy surrounding that sport. He's an expert for goodness sake. Open your eyes and watch all the political punditry on TV with every Tom, ****, Jane, Harry, anyone who has even the most tangential relationship to politics or opinion.

He's a legend, no doubt. But, he's an expert in what? Everyone here claims he never doped, so I don't see how he has actual knowledge of how everyone else dopes. To me, it seems that if you not one of the boys, the boys don't let you know what they're doing. As for the political punditry on TV, I don't believe any of them.

People buy into this LA crap that everything should be a big secret so he can make his millions. Wake up.

Again, don't understand this. LA has nothing to do with this conversation. It's primarily about LeMond, but about Landis as well.

 

[Anonymous]

I have no idea what the sum that Greg got here was...clearly it was something and then the charity donation...so I don't really care how anyone cuts it but clearly this was a big win for Greg...and after all the cheap, hateful crap the Landis camp threw at him as well...good for Greg.