LeMond I

[thehog]

I like the way that Starr lables ALL euro pros as dopers yet he never raced there. He seems to be trading of limited stories from others. Does he know for fact that guys like Mottet, Delion, Helvetia were dirty or is he falling into the easy(they all do it) trap based on what a few people say.

I would never rule out the possibility of LeMond doping but until we get something from more relevant people than Starr, I reserve judgement.

He did ride for the Individual (Unknown) team in 1994. I heard they were the USPS of their day.

 

[BotanyBay]

Having read the comments of Olive Starr, a few things need to be highlighted.
Of all LeMonds Tour victories, 1990 would be the most suspicious considering where he was at the Tour de Trump as Starr mentioned. In 89(this seems to get ignored a lot)LeMond actually had very good early season, Top 10 Tour of Americas, Criterium International, Tirreno-Adriatico and 16th at Het Volk. His form then just seemed to desert him overnight and he started to struggle again but he was never as bad as he was in 1990.

LeMond did come into the 1990 season badly overweight and out of shape, he really struggled through the first half of the season as Starr noted. However it wasnt training that saw LeMond progress rapidly as Starr suggested, it was that old fashioned style of getting in shape, racing, lots of racing.

The Tour de Trump finished on May 13, LeMond then started the Giro on May 18, he was still far from top form but was active getting in an 139kn break in the mountains on stage 15. The Giro finished on June 6 and LeMond then started the Tour of Switzerland June 13-22 in which he finished 10th overall. The Tour started on June 30th and the first major encounter was the TT on stage 7. In a 7 week period up to the end of Switzerland, LeMond raced for 40 days!!! Thats more than some current GT riders do in a season and his progression is linear.

In modern day racing, we have exactly the opposite. Riders not racing and heading of on training camps and then showing up at the Tour in shape. Racing and suffering was always considered the best way of getting in shape but that all changed with the advent of EPO.

I like the way that Starr lables ALL euro pros as dopers yet he never raced there. He seems to be trading of limited stories from others. Does he know for fact that guys like Mottet, Delion, Helvetia were dirty or is he falling into the easy(they all do it) trap based on what a few people say.

I would never rule out the possibility of LeMond doping but until we get something from more relevant people than Starr, I reserve judgement.

You would think Starr would remember the days of racing one's way into shape. Starr is just hoping to be one of lance's buddies in the next Michelob TV spot.

That 1990 year alone, Lemond raced more days in 3 months than Armstrong raced in 3 years during his tour-winning era.

 

[Raul Ramaya]

humm... never thought to actually look up the posters name I just now read through some of his postings and then read the responses on this thread. Glad I posted. To me, with no direct knowledge, his blog posts seemed well thought out... The responses here provide some good balance/context. Wonder what his motivation is to be so upset with Lemond?

 

[BotanyBay]

humm... never thought to actually look up the posters name I just now read through some of his postings and then read the responses on this thread. Glad I posted. To me, with no direct knowledge, his blog posts seemed well thought out... The responses here provide some good balance/context. Wonder what his motivation is to be so upset with Lemond?

Starr was a very smart and intelligent guy, but he is no "insider" as far as Lemond goes. He just wasn't part of that circle. Lemond was a Euro-pro. Starr was not.

 

[Hugh Januss]

humm... never thought to actually look up the posters name I just now read through some of his postings and then read the responses on this thread. Glad I posted. To me, with no direct knowledge, his blog posts seemed well thought out... The responses here provide some good balance/context. Wonder what his motivation is to be so upset with Lemond?

I knew Oliver back in the day. I would say his overwhelming motivation to be talking such nonsense about Greg has to be jealousy.

 

[thehog]

I knew Oliver back in the day. I would say his overwhelming motivation to be talking such nonsense about Greg has to be jealousy.

I heard that Starr is an Internet guru and venture capitalist extraordinaire. Lance has been investing in Internet companies of late. I wonder if the two have crossed paths? Probably not.

http://lifeboat.com/ex/bios.oliver.starr

http://www.betabeat.com/2012/01/31/lance-armstrong-leonardo-dicaprio-mobli-board-investor-01312012/

 

[Hugh Januss]

I heard that Starr is an Internet guru and venture capitalist extraordinaire. Lance has been investing in Internet companies of late. I wonder if the two have crossed paths? Probably not.

http://lifeboat.com/ex/bios.oliver.starr

http://www.betabeat.com/2012/01/31/lance-armstrong-leonardo-dicaprio-mobli-board-investor-01312012/

Hey that Moshiko Hogeg guy in the second article, that's not you by any chance?

 

[BotanyBay]

I heard that Starr is an Internet guru and venture capitalist extraordinaire. Lance has been investing in Internet companies of late. I wonder if the two have crossed paths? Probably not.

http://lifeboat.com/ex/bios.oliver.starr

http://www.betabeat.com/2012/01/31/lance-armstrong-leonardo-dicaprio-mobli-board-investor-01312012/

Starr always had cash. I always sensed that he came from wealth.

 

[blutto]

Starr wrote:



Starr is a complete idiot in this statement. That worlds was in 1989. EPO was not "widely available" then. It wasn't even approved by the FDA until 1993:

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/04/briefing/4037b2_04_fda-aranesp-procrit.htm

...89 in the US and late 88 in Europe...there is a thread currently enmeshed in a debate over who was the first EPO user and the availability dates are discussed...and btw EPO from clinical trials was apparently available as early as 86...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Le breton]

Having read the comments of Olive Starr, a few things need to be highlighted.
...............
However it wasnt training that saw LeMond progress rapidly as Starr suggested, it was that old fashioned style of getting in shape, racing, lots of racing.

The Tour de Trump finished on May 13, LeMond then started the Giro on May 18, he was still far from top form but was active getting in an 139kn break in the mountains on stage 15. The Giro finished on June 6 and LeMond then started the Tour of Switzerland June 13-22 in which he finished 10th overall. The Tour started on June 30th and the first major encounter was the TT on stage 7. In a 7 week period up to the end of Switzerland, LeMond raced for 40 days!!! Thats more than some current GT riders do in a season and his progression is linear.

.................

In a 7 week period up to the end of Switzerland, LeMond raced for 40 days!!!

Just about any racer would keel over with such a programme. You really need to have extraordinary physiological capacities to actually benefit from such an ordeal. If only Ullrich had done the same...

 

[pmcg76]

...89 in the US and late 88 in Europe...there is a thread currently enmeshed in a debate over who was the first EPO user and the availability dates are discussed...and btw EPO from clinical trials was apparently available as early as 86...

Cheers

blutto

Yes, and in that thread, we have seen very little evidence that EPO was being used effectively by pros pre 1990.

The death's of a group of amateur riders have been linked with possible EPO usage but this would suggest they didnt know how to use it correctly if in fact they were using EPO at all.

What we need is some sort of evidence that there were people available who knew how to utilise EPO combined with training. The guys who seemed to know where Conconi, Ferrari, Cecchini and there doesnt appear to be any discernible link between them and LeMond.

As effective as EPO appeared to be, I dont think it was like an amphetamine where it would be injected and a rider would start feeling better within hours. It needed to be used in co-ordination with a planned training programme for maximun benefit and that required an experienced doctor.

 

[BotanyBay]

Yes, and in that thread, we have seen very little evidence that EPO was being used effectively by pros pre 1990.

The death's of a group of amateur riders have been linked with possible EPO usage but this would suggest they didnt know how to use it correctly if in fact they were using EPO at all.

What we need is some sort of evidence that there were people available who knew how to utilise EPO combined with training. The guys who seemed to know where Conconi, Ferrari, Cecchini and there doesnt appear to be any discernible link between them and LeMond.

As effective as EPO appeared to be, I dont think it was like an amphetamine where it would be injected and a rider would start feeling better within hours. It needed to be used in co-ordination with a planned training programme for maximun benefit and that required an experienced doctor.

I remember Kathy Lemond writing about their first encounter with the effects of EPO. One of Greg's young, Dutch PDM teammates died in his sleep of an epo-sludge heart attack. His young wife was American, and the Lemond's are the first people she called after the ambulance took her husband away. as she knew no one else in the Netherlands. Greg new that bad stuff was happening in regards to team mgmt and some experimenting with oxygen vectors, but he apparently told them to screw-off and that put an end to his relationship with that team. He was very upset at how they quickly covered their arses in regards to the death. So the Lemonds had a very early "shocking" introduction to EPO. The rider's wife stayed with the Lemonds while she took care of the funeral arrangements.

 

[Merckx index]

...89 in the US and late 88 in Europe...there is a thread currently enmeshed in a debate over who was the first EPO user and the availability dates are discussed...and btw EPO from clinical trials was apparently available as early as 86...

Cheers

blutto

The EPO gene was sequenced and cloned in 1985, the first paper reporting this I believe was Lin et al in November of that year. At this point it was possible to use large-scale production techniques to make enough EPO to use in trials. The first clinical trials were in 1986, with the results published in January of 1987. It’s not clear when during 1986 enough of it might have become available for someone to dose himself with it, but even assuming a) it was in the early part of that year; b) Lemond was working with some doctor who was immediately aware of its doping potential; c) that doctor was able to procure some; and d) in advance of the clinical trials the doctor would know enough about it to be able to recommend a dose low enough to be safe yet high enough to be performance-enhancing, it’s unlikely Lemond could have gotten some in time to use it for TDF that year. It certainly wasn’t available when Lemond won his first WC in 1983, podiumed in the TDF twice and the Giro once in 1984 and 1985. His 1986 win showed no level of performance that wasn’t obvious from the preceding years.

The possibilities for 1989 and 1990 are obviously better, but at the very least we can say that Lemond showed nothing in those Tour wins that was not evident in his palmares before then.

Oliver Starr actually insinuated that both Hinault and Lemond were on something. Hinault retired after the 1986 TDF, so whatever he might have been on was not EPO.

Also, the more I think about it, if there really were a dozen or more deaths of cyclists in the late 1980s from EPO, these must have been guys who got it on their own after it was approved for general use in 1988/89. Why? Because if someone got it through clinical trials, he almost certainly would have had the help of someone on the inside, actually participating in some way in those trials. Someone in that position would have known, after the first trial was published in early 1987, the kind of doses that were safe. Ferrari's orange juice statement really wasn't that outrageous. If riders died from taking EPO, it was because they were completely unfamiliar with the dosing regimens that were being worked out in the trials.

 

[pmcg76]

In a 7 week period up to the end of Switzerland, LeMond raced for 40 days!!!

Just about any racer would keel over with such a programme. You really need to have extraordinary physiological capacities to actually benefit from such an ordeal. If only Ullrich had done the same...

Well LeMond was starting from a very low level as was pointed out, he was being dropped in the Tour de Trump which wasnt exactly a high level event.

In those days, the Giro was renowned as being incredibly easy most days apart from the last hour of each stage.

But I dont think most pro's programme were much different in those days.

What about Lejarreta who raced the Vuelta followed by the Giro and then the Tour. That's 42 days in just over 6 weeks!!!

 

[BotanyBay]

The EPO gene was sequenced and cloned in 1985, the first paper reporting this I believe was Lin et al in November of that year. At this point it was possible to use large-scale production techniques to make enough EPO to use in trials. The first clinical trials were in 1986, with the results published in January of 1987. It’s not clear when during 1986 enough of it might have become available for someone to dose himself with it, but even assuming a) it was in the early part of that year; b) Lemond was working with some doctor who was immediately aware of its doping potential; c) that doctor was able to procure some; and d) in advance of the clinical trials the doctor would know enough about it to be able to recommend a dose low enough to be safe yet high enough to be performance-enhancing, it’s unlikely Lemond could have gotten some in time to use it for TDF that year. It certainly wasn’t available when Lemond won his first WC in 1983, podiumed in the TDF twice and the Giro once in 1984 and 1985. His 1986 win showed no level of performance that wasn’t obvious from the preceding years.

The possibilities for 1989 and 1990 are obviously better, but at the very least we can say that Lemond showed nothing in those Tour wins that was not evident in his palmares before then.

Starr had mentioned the '89 worlds as one of the suspicious results. I think only a "bleeding edge" doper would have been cycling it during that specific year. That means Lemond would have to be like one of the first 5 people to do it. And I seriously doubt that happened.

 

[Maxiton]

The fact that such a brilliant rider couldn't keep up suddenly and had to retire indicates he didn't have an unnatural advantage. If Lemond had been on EPO, he'd have had more success in the last years, and the last years wouldn't have been last. Seems self-evident.

 

[thehog]

The fact that such a brilliant rider couldn't keep up suddenly and had to retire indicates he didn't have an unnatural advantage. If Lemond had been on EPO, he'd have had more success in the last years, and the last years wouldn't have been last. Seems self-evident.

More to the point the fact that Starr couldn't keep up would lead one to think he is wee bit FoS.

 

[Ripper]

Why the f**k would anyone care what Starr thinks? He was not that terribly talented and beyond being FoS, he sounds a wee bit full of douchbaggery

 

[Race Radio]

The going rate for info on LeMond doping is $300,000. Mr. Star should cash in all his deep knowledge

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Judging from flyer he gave me back in the late 90's, Starr is no stranger to the ins and out of performance enhancers. I may still have it somewhere, but the jist of it was that his biz at the time was to assist folks in using and obtaining. It was very blatant with no attempt to sugarcoat.

Maybe someone else here remembers that phase of his career?

One cool thing about ol' Oliver though...for a time he took in and cared for domesticated wolves & hybrids after their owners realized that they were in over their heads with their "pets." So perhaps his douchbaggery doesn't go clear to the bone.

 

[BroDeal]

Team Village Peddler? A team sponsored by a bike shop? Maybe with a bit of dope he could have made it to the Papp level.

I do like how his blog starts:

"StarrTrek is Oliver Starr’s personal weblog. For the most part, this blog is focused on developing technologies in the Mobile, Web2.0 and Green Energy ecosystems..."

Bussword checklist:
Mobile? Got it.
Web2.0? Got it.
Green Energy? Got it.
Ecosystem. That's a cool word. Throw it in there.

I have not read anything else on his blog, but I bet I could win at Buzzword Bingo within two paragraphs.

You also have to love that he touts the achievement of being the youngest person in history to ride a century. Freds everywhere are impressed.

Then there is this little tidbit:

"Oliver is nationally recognized as an authority on mobile devices as well as sports performance and pharmacological and dietary means of improving both general health and athletic performance."

Hmmmm. I think that means he is an expert doper and still ended up riding for that big money that we all know that bike shop teams pay.

 

[Race Radio]

He does have a wide range of interests

politics, UFOlogy, health or conspiracy theories of various kinds

 

[131313]

If the "Roberto" on that list is who I think it is, then the commentary is even more specious.

 

[BroDeal]

If the "Roberto" on that list is who I think it is, then the commentary is even more specious.

Make sure there are no two-by-fours nearby when confronting him about it.

 

[Ripper]

Starr had mentioned the '89 worlds as one of the suspicious results. I think only a "bleeding edge" doper would have been cycling it during that specific year. That means Lemond would have to be like one of the first 5 people to do it. And I seriously doubt that happened.

I see Ollie did not respond to any of the 5 questions you posted for him