LeMond I

[Green Hornet]

Wah - Wah - Wah

Even if everyone in the history of cycling except LeMond doped ...

He's still a tool -

 

[Blakeslee]

Lemond's comments remind me somewhat of Jose Canseco's comments about Major League Baseball. When Canseco made his statements that 80% of the players were using performance enhancing drugs, a lot of people were quick to dismiss his credibility. As time has passed Canseco's statements are looking more and more credible.

I think time is eventually going to show that Lemond is right, I hope he continues to speak out and keeps the pressure on the riders.

 

[rhubroma]

Wrong. I'm not deluded, or jealous, and I know plenty about the sport. Yes, I believe that there has been a major doping problem in the sport, including Lemond.

The reason I don't like the guy is that he basically comes out and says that he was the last guy to win clean. We have to take his word for that, although he's not willing to take anyone else's. As far as I am concerned, there is as much suspicion about him doping as there is anyone since.

Your arguments here though, would seem to indicate otherwise.

Lemond probably did take the corticoids, etc. that everyone else took back in the 80's, but they didn't transform (in the most exceptional cases) donkies into race horses, the way the science of blood doping with EPO has since his retirement.

This is what he's all worked up about, that the spectacle today is a falacy and, without the most sophisticated blood doping, Lance would not have become the Tour champ that he did, because he didn't have the natural pedegree. Lemond has always cited the case of Hinault, who won the very first Tour he entered at a young age. That's pedegree, but he could have just as well cited himself. Armstrong was by contrast, engineered in the lab (first Ferrari's and then somebody else's). And he knows this (so does Lance) and can't keep silent while the farce goes on. In this there probably is some bitterness and jealousy, but Armstrong's arrogant and bullying personality and supporting of the omertà, has provided Greg with in my book a satisfactory alibi to see his cause as just.

It's certainly more just than the putrified, sludge pit that the sport has become in the EPO era, to mention nothing of the omertà which has tried to cover up the Truth, not just in regards to Armstrong, but the entire cycling movement. And again doping pre-EPO vs. doping during the EPO era, is like a child's game of simple match set against that of poker at a table occupied by the most cunning adults. And it has falsified results and actual pedigree, where Rijs would be another clamerous example. Without a massive EPO regime, the guy never even would have placed top ten, let alone have de-throned Big Mig.

Greg thus can't tollarate the intollerable and yet his voice is ridiculed by some/many and mocked by others, when the sport needs a 1000 more voices like his crying out in unison that the farce must end!

 

[Anonymous]

Your arguments here though, would seem to indicate otherwise.

Lemond probably did take the corticoids, etc. that everyone else took back in the 80's, but they didn't transform (in the most exceptional cases) donkies into race horses, the way the science of blood doping with EPO has since his retirement.

This is what he's all worked up about, that the spectacle today is a falacy and, without the most sophisticated blood doping, Lance would not have become the Tour champ that he did, because he didn't have the natural pedegree. Lemond has always cited the case of Hinault, who won the very first Tour he entered at a young age. That's pedegree, but he could have just as well cited himself. Armstrong was by contrast, engineered in the lab (first Ferrari's and then somebody else's). And he knows this (so does Lance) and can't keep silent while the farce goes on. In this there probably is some bitterness and jealousy, but Armstrong's arrogant and bullying personality and supporting of the omertà, has provided Greg with in my book a satisfactory alibi to see his cause as just.

It's certainly more just than the putrified, sludge pit that the sport has become in the EPO era, to mention nothing of the omertà which has tried to cover up the Truth, not just in regards to Armstrong, but the entire cycling movement. And again doping pre-EPO vs. doping during the EPO era, is like a child's game of simple match set against that of poker at a table occupied by the most cunning adults. And it has falsified results and actual pedigree, where Rijs would be another clamerous example. Without a massive EPO regime, the guy never even would have placed top ten, let alone have de-throned Big Mig.

Greg thus can't tollarate the intollerable and yet his voice is ridiculed by some/many and mocked by others, when the sport needs a 1000 more voices like his crying out in unison that the farce must end!

It is interesting to see that those who support Greg also use similar hard hitting, honest vocabulary and having researched it a bit more I will probably find the National Enquirer and The Shun at the other end of argument, if in fact the obviousness of a situation needs to be argued in the first or any place. I have already seen some hard hitting but meaningless put downs of him on here this thread. They are not even funny which can make them easier to bare.

 

[Jonathan]

I am no Lance homer by any means, but has he EVER tested postitive?

Yes, he has.

How much do you think the French (and all of Europe for that matter) would LOVE for him to be shown a fraud....

Not much, Armstrong is generally admired in Europe. He also has a lot of French fans, although I can't give you percentages.

Sweeping statements about 'The French' are problematic, about 'Europe' (what is Europe?) even more so.

 

[Sheltowee]

Is it just me or can this guy not go away quick enough? He is po'd that he has been marginalized as America's greatest cyclist and just cannot leave it alone.

Based on his proposition Astana/Discovery has the greatest masking agent EVER! They searched their bus to know avail. And no doubt they have probably been the most tested team in the last yr due to reputation.

Let it go Greg....just let it go.

I am thinking seriously of taping over his name on my frame.

Perhaps the bus was searched because they had good reason to search? Just because nothing was found doesn't mean that authorities were told that something would be found. Police were probably acting upon a tip.

 

[TRDean]

Lemond is bitter because he feels he was robbed of his best racing years because of his gunshot wounds.

Personally, I thought it was his own fault. What kind of idiot goes hunting anyway?

Beyond that, he seems to basically be saying that all riders today are doping.

Yet people who raced long before him have said all riders were doping as long as they could remember. Are we really supposed to believe that Lemond did not dope as well?

This whole anti doping witch hunt will end up destroying cycling.

You are an idiot!! LeMond will not destroy cycling...doping will.

 

[TRDean]

Wah - Wah - Wah

Even if everyone in the history of cycling except LeMond doped ...

He's still a tool -

You are a tool!

 

[TRDean]

Lemond is a hero for the way he pioneered the way for other American's into the sport, the way he helped cyclist's get more pay and brought the sport into the new world. His also a hero for his endeavour's for a cleaner sport. We all have flaws in our character and even hidden secrets, but who among you can say they have put themselves out on a limb like Lemond knowing that it is only going to hurt you. His a champion in my eyes, more because he sticks up for what he believes despite the consequences.

This states my opinion exactly...thanks for writing!!

 

[Altimax]

Wah - Wah - Wah

Even if everyone in the history of cycling except LeMond doped ...

He's still a tool -

Your language and attitude says so much, who is the tool?

 

[fatandfast]

Lemond a hero? Without question,yes.Armstrong a hero?Yes.Lemond is fighting to keep his pages in history open and important.He has been involved in petty spats with Armstrong and has now ruined his bicycle manufacturing and distribution empire.His star has fallen while Lance continues to soar.Watching tour coverage in the US,Lemond pitches his cause for a cure for diabetes and Armstrong for his Livestrong efforts,examples that both men are trying to help people.There is no reason that clouds need to linger over all of cycling because of some ineffective testing,if we need another cycling historian then Lemond is a great place to start.If we need testing to insert or remove an* next to records of great cycling feats the UCI needs to test more than handful of people and do it fast.Is DiLuca guilty or innocent?That is only part of the problem,finding him positive a month and a half later is an equal crime.Valverde,Basso and others should have their fate judged by the UCI,not Lemond or the press or a federation more concerned with how the colors of their flag appear on a jersey.This week the WSJ had a story about Pele I think Greg should read it,Armstrong and David Beckam do't need to.

 

[podilato]

All these Lemond bashers need to get their eyes tested because I think they are blind (as well as deaf). Just like any politician when they have no credibility they resort to carachter assassination. If Lemond is wrong then attack his arguements, not the person.

I think Lemond is just an easy target. Why doesn't anyone say the same thing for Jesus Manzano. Why isn't he a whiner? Why shouldn't he just shut up? He has probably said far more the Lemond yet it is Lemond who has horns coming from his head. If it wasn't serious it would be funny.

 

[rhubroma]

Lemond is a hero for the way he pioneered the way for other American's into the sport, the way he helped cyclist's get more pay and brought the sport into the new world. His also a hero for his endeavour's for a cleaner sport. We all have flaws in our character and even hidden secrets, but who among you can say they have put themselves out on a limb like Lemond knowing that it is only going to hurt you. His a champion in my eyes, more because he sticks up for what he believes despite the consequences.

Couldn't have stated it better. Cheers.

 

[rhubroma]

Lemond a hero? Without question,yes.Armstrong a hero?Yes.Lemond is fighting to keep his pages in history open and important.He has been involved in petty spats with Armstrong and has now ruined his bicycle manufacturing and distribution empire.His star has fallen while Lance continues to soar.Watching tour coverage in the US,Lemond pitches his cause for a cure for diabetes and Armstrong for his Livestrong efforts,examples that both men are trying to help people.There is no reason that clouds need to linger over all of cycling because of some ineffective testing,if we need another cycling historian then Lemond is a great place to start.If we need testing to insert or remove an* next to records of great cycling feats the UCI needs to test more than handful of people and do it fast.Is DiLuca guilty or innocent?That is only part of the problem,finding him positive a month and a half later is an equal crime.Valverde,Basso and others should have their fate judged by the UCI,not Lemond or the press or a federation more concerned with how the colors of their flag appear on a jersey.This week the WSJ had a story about Pele I think Greg should read it,Armstrong and David Beckam do't need to.

The UCI!?!? It, like all the major sport's governing bodies including the IOC, is corrupt to the hilt. They are riddled with a conflict of interists that is a major part of the problem.

Valverde, Basso, DiLuca (Hamilton, Landis, Riccò, Ullrich, Sella, Rebellin, et al)?!?!? They're all world class liars who think they live with impunity because of the omertà, which a man like Mr. Armstrong has supported his entire career.

Lemond is an anti-hero, who puts his reputation on the line by fighting the entire cycling institution, which needs to be flushed down the toilete as it's putrid and needs to be built all over again from scratch. His is a rightous cause angainst a sea of lies and corruption, which people like you indirectly support by believing in the lies and denying that the corruption exists.

 

[fatandfast]

ruborama,most of what you wrote I totally agree with,IOC?There is part of the problem.The Russians and East Germans turned the tide long ago.Nobody that holds a pro license should be able to take part in the Olympic games,back to tradition of amateur starting with cycling.Putrid is an understatement but I think pro racing is much too fragile for a total rebuild.Look to American Hockey as an example,the league needs to contract too many teams not enough interest.Doping control should be done on a much greater % of the riders,if it's the quantity of substances that delays the test result then Boonen get a free pass.HGH,EPO-CERA with a couple days turn around until they see some more guys resist temptation to stay alive in the pro ranks.When Lance steps away from American cycling so will most of the money and the interest.Pro cycling is so small it can operate with one governing body,no need for all the micro empires of corrupt leeches.

 

[Oldman]

OK if it was tour dupont that was after the shooting, You know he almost died right ? Kind of like saying Armstrong was really bad when he had that halo on his head and then magically got better. Its called recovery.
Otto Jacombe? Why would he ride with his soigneur?

You are pretty good with the gossip yourself

The US race Greg referenced was during the comeback year for his Tour win in '89 riding for TVM. He complained of being dropped by riders he didn't consider that strong (no, he wasn't implicating them). Those things happened and are not Gossip. As for Otto, Lemond was living and training in Healdsburg with Otto present. Like I said before; this is no evidence of doping. It is similar to circumstances of other riders that seem to constantly be under excess scrutiny. You're missing my point-don't make accusations of impropriety or create a defense purely on the strength of your devotion to a rider, politician or ideal. Likewise you don't need to personally attack anyone that merely is skeptical or raises legitimate questions because you disagree. That type of interaction is discrediting the Forums in general.

 

[rhubroma]

When Lance steps away from American cycling so will most of the money and the interest.Pro cycling is so small it can operate with one governing body,no need for all the micro empires of corrupt leeches.

In a globalized market economy, perhaps loosing American investments would hurt the sport more than say thirty years ago. But the sport is European, culturally, and only the doping and omertà will risk driving it into extinction. Not a lack of US investments, which would only make it richer.

 

[Coach Hawk]

His a champion in my eyes, more because he sticks up for what he believes despite the consequences.

So if he believed that all modern cyclists are a preliminary invasion force from the planet Zorro, he would be a champion for sticking up for that?? Being dedicated to your cause, does not make you sane.

Lemond did a lot for cycling, but now just comes across as bitter and hateful.

And I'm still waiting for a reasonable answer to how it is that basically every cyclist in the last 40 years has been a doper, but he, au naturalle, out time-trialed them all (also inspite of huge advancements in aerodynamic technology). Get real.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Lemond has way too much time on his hands.

Shouldn't he be looking for another company to build his bikes?

 

[podilato]

I certainly don't think that everything Lemond says is right but all those people who complain about him being a whiner etc should actually listen to what he says. Since when does he accuse everyone of doping ? What he questions is out of this world performances. See how the first few who cross the finish line look. They are fresh as daisies and others about 15-20 minutes down look absolutely shattered.

He even says that dopers could be looked at as victims as in a lot of cases they are 'lab rats' who are experimented on.

In one speech I saw on the Internet he was actually asked "Why should we believe you?" His response was that if he suddenly produced unbelievable results and had a relationship with a doping doctor then you shouldn't believe him.

I remember Noam Chomsky talking about propaganda in so-called democratic systems and argues that alternative arguments are given a tiny percentage of airtime as it just sounds crazy next to the other 99% of official truth. I think you could apply it to the debate about doping in pro cycling.

 

[Escarabajo]

Lemond did a lot for cycling, but now just comes across as bitter and hateful.
And I'm still waiting for a reasonable answer to how it is that basically every cyclist in the last 40 years has been a doper, but he, au naturally, out time-trialed them all (also in spite of huge advancements in aerodynamic technology). Get real.

Does tailwind means anything to you?

I will help you with the power calculations:

Greg Lemond ITT 1989: 420-430 Watts (5.65 W/kg)
Lance Armstrong 2004 Alpe d'Huez: 466 Watts (6.5 W/kg)
Contador - Verbier 2009: 413 W- 434 W (6.8- 7.1 W/kg)
Pantani – Alpe d’Huez 1997: 403 W (7.2 W/kg)

Here I am not taking into account the time to exhaustion which is a big factor on the power that an athlete can perform. In other words it is harder to maintain a high power for longer times. Look at the short time for the ITT for Greg Lemond. That is completely believable. Now look at the numbers on Watts/Kg that all other athletes have. Above 6 W/kg the numbers start being seriously suspicious.

Now here is a link at Greg's take on his numbers:
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

In this link Greg also is explaining how the power decreases over time. This means that over a period of three weeks of riding in the Tour de France the riders will experience fatigue and decrease in VO2 max. Something that is not happening with the other three athletes apparently.

As a late note, this topic has been discussed in the past in this forum so that was the reason why I did not want to reply to you, but since you have been so insistent on this topic now I took the time to reply to you.

I hope this helps.

Note: here is a link on how to do the calculations and a chart on the exhaustion times for athletes. Or you can just Google the topic all you want.
http://swiss2.whosting.ch/mdetting/sports/

 

[beroepsrenner]

IMO Lemond means well. His biggest problem is that he doesnt come across well in the media. Ego still comes into the picture to some extent and Greg would no doubt be hurting that others have eclipsed his performances Without trying to speculate on Lemonds claims one way or another, I personally know of many pros from the 80s that rode without doping and were still competative with those that did. I remember racing alongside him in Belgium while he was with PDM. This was during his comeback from his accident and he was struggling to stay in contact like us mortals. The following year he won the Tour. Maybe his cause would be better served if he chose a different platform on which to further it.

I know its irrelevent but he needs to get himself in better shape. He looks like s...t!

 

[runninboy]

Lemond a hero? Without question,yes.Armstrong a hero?Yes.Lemond is fighting to keep his pages in history open and important.
.

wrong
sorry but someone who knows him very well claims otherwise.

there was an andy hampsten interview where he supports Greg and says anyone who believes Greg is doing this to protect his legacy is flat out wrong

http://www.tdfblog.com/2004/07/hampsten_voices.html

 

[fatandfast]

No I don't know him as well as Andy Ham,getting shot and winning the tour 3 times makes him a hero for many.Sure maybe not you.Greg is a god and barking about Armstrong or Contador makes him a punk.Could Ali have beat anybody...I may have rolled it over in my mind but to see George Foreman or Ali say I would have beaten this guy or that 20 years in the the future makes them.... a chump.Andy should ride bikes with fat guys and agree with whatever Lemond says as long as it is never published.Bikes ,training,money are very different then La Vie days of old.Contador is great like him or hate him.Greg sell bikes and shut up already.Fran Tarkington was the best of all time.

 

[runninboy]

No I don't know him as well as Andy Ham,getting shot and winning the tour 3 times makes him a hero for many.Sure maybe not you.Greg is a god and barking about Armstrong or Contador makes him a punk.Could Ali have beat anybody...I may have rolled it over in my mind but to see George Foreman or Ali say I would have beaten this guy or that 20 years in the the future makes them.... a chump.Andy should ride bikes with fat guys and agree with whatever Lemond says as long as it is never published.Bikes ,training,money are very different then La Vie days of old.Contador is great like him or hate him.Greg sell bikes and shut up already.Fran Tarkington was the best of all time.

Yeah don't bother with facts, You stated you knew Lemonds motivation, which you don't, someone who does know contradicts your point of view.
You completely ignore that what Greg & Andy talk about cost several young cyclists their lives.
But as long as everyone keeps silent that is what is most important to you.
ok..............