LeMond I

[thehog]

Slid that one in under the radar (I respectfully disagree Hog)

You're right. Anquetil might have something to say about it but that was a different era. Not one I remember.

 

[thehog]

I know but I would like to hear what ChrisE and Blutto are basing their info on.

Greg was a good looking guy in his day. Blonde hair blue eyed American taking on the Euros. He was extremely well respected by his European counterparts. No spitting on LeMond.

He and Phil Anderson paved the way for all of the non-European riders.

Bravo Greg! A true American hero!

 

[BotanyBay]

Don't forget the 27 years post-retirement, which encompassed the birth and explosion of the internet, and an unprecedented access to, and sharing of, information.

Not to mention the added scrutiny on present and past dopers, the dismantling (almost) of cycling omerta, the at least partial recognition of cycling (or at least cycling doping) in the main-stream US media, and the willingness of the cycling-specific media to actually report on doping.

True. The "Winning: Bicycle Racing Illustrated" era was certainly one of highly polished PR. We're left with our perceptions of them "back then". Armstrong matured in the era of post-"Winning", and during the era of the Festina matter.

 

[blutto]

You're missing the pharmaceutical and medical knowledge required to use the drugs in a manner that would produce a gand-tour winning result. He'd also need access to a very thightly controlled chain of custody for a drug that was still in cinical trials.

Also remember that this result happened before the Dutch riders started dropping dead from blood that was the consistency of molasses.

...EPO, according to sources such as the NYT and Le Monde, was available from the time clinical trials started ( whether this was from the trials themselves or further upstream has not been established ...but the point was it was available from 86 on )...

...as for an application protocol...well how on earth do you think they were running the clinical trials?...like just throwing stuff out there until someone died and then re-jigged the test procedure?...the protocol is well in place before the clinical trials begin...and the results of the trials were published in 86?...so plenty of time to digest the literature and establish a strategy...

...then all you need to do is find someone who can properly administer a dose ( even someone like a nurse would do nicely) and you are off to the races...and given they were injecting all kinds of stuff from iron, b-12 to regular "accepted" PED's who would be the wiser...and then just keep your mouth shut and you are golden....

Cheers

blutto

 

[BotanyBay]

The people that turned to EPO were the ones who weren't at Lemond's level, but found an artificial way to get there. Lemond was what they all wanted to be, but couldn't be. Then (later), those who were at Lemond's level also began taking it.

But the younger people need to realize, that Lemond was a true absolutely amazing talent. While I'm sure he worked hard, he just had a natural genetic ability that was far above that of us regular mortals.

I think the mid-latter 90's was a wildly competitive and wildly experimental time period. It was like the space-race of doping. And in my opinion, Armstrong made it to the Moon first. Except Armstrong's moon landing was like Capricorn 1.

Greg Lemond was like John Glenn. Ticker-tape parade in lower Manhattan (and well deserved).

 

[BotanyBay]

...EPO, according to sources such as the NYT and Le Monde, was available from the time clinical trials started ( whether this was from the trials themselves or further upstream has not been established ...but the point was it was available from 86 on )...

...as for an application protocol...well how on earth do you think they were running the clinical trials?...like just throwing stuff out there until someone died and then re-jigged the test procedure?...the protocol is well in place before the clinical trials begin...and the results of the trials were published in 86?...so plenty of time to digest the literature and establish a strategy...

...then all you need to do is find someone who can properly administer a dose ( even someone like a nurse would do ) and you are off to the races...

Cheers

blutto

And now the burden is on you. Establish the link. Greg used to show up at races in a station wagon with his assistant/soigneur tagging-along. His operation was pretty simple. Armstrong was flying to Italy to meet in parking lots in Ferarri's RV.

 

[wc1998]

Oliver's Response

Guys-I told Oliver about your discussion on his view. He seems to be smart enough not to want to jump into the fray. I posted his response on the comments section of the original post.

http://stevetilford.com/?p=18785&cpage=2#comment-7683

 

[Polish]

the great thing about LeMond is that, unlike Armstrong, he showed signs of being a potential GT-winner as early as age 20-21…"[/I]

That may be true, but "potential" is way over rated. Would/coulda/shoulda.

Pick any age between 15yrs old and 40yrs old for Lance and Greg.
Lance was more awesome than Greg at every single age.
Every single one, except the gunshotinjury/cancer years.
Head to head - Lance is better. 15-40 and counting.

 

[Race Radio]

Guys-I told Oliver about your discussion on his view. He seems to be smart enough not to want to jump into the fray. I posted his response on the comments section of the original post.

http://stevetilford.com/?p=18785&cpage=2#comment-7683

Thanks Steve

Basically he is saying that Greg was slow at the Tour de Trump so that means he is a doper.

 

[MacRoadie]

True. The "Winning: Bicycle Racing Illustrated" era was certainly one of highly polished PR. We're left with our perceptions of them "back then". Armstrong matured in the era of post-"Winning", and during the era of the Festina matter.

Here, pulled this off the shelf:

 

[BotanyBay]

Thanks Steve

Basically he is saying that Greg was slow at the Tour de Trump so that means he is a doper.

It's more credible because Oliver saw that slowness first-hand. I had to watch it from a support car

Oliver wrote:

Thanks for the note. I’m not sure I care to jump back into the fray. I raced against Lemond at Trump the year he beat Fignon in the Tour (and contrary to what these people are saying I was absolutely a pro). He was dropped every single time we hit a hill. His transformation was beyond superhuman.

Lemond (in shape) was (to almost any observer) superhuman. I'm sure that watching a post-appendix, tendinitis, shotgunned Lemond get back into shape first-hand was a superhuman experience.

But Oliver, you fail to address the question about your relationship with Lance. Did you or do you have one?

 

[samerics]

That may be true, but "potential" is way over rated. Would/coulda/shoulda.

Pick any age between 15yrs old and 40yrs old for Lance and Greg.
Lance was more awesome than Greg at every single age.
Every single one, except the gunshotinjury/cancer years.
Head to head - Lance is better. 15-40 and counting.

Did you type that during a fit of laughter?? What utter, dishonest rubbish. Unless you count after 1999, which was, coincidentally, the year that six samples of Lance's blood had EPO in them, and yet most of Greg's success came in an era where EPO was a non issue. Get a grip.

 

[MacRoadie]

What utter, dishonest rubbish.

Better get used to it...

 

[Caruut]

Did you type that during a fit of laughter?? What utter, dishonest rubbish. Unless you count after 1999, which was, coincidentally, the year that six samples of Lance's blood had EPO in them, and yet most of Greg's success came in an era where EPO was a non issue. Get a grip.

I see you haven't met Polish yet. He's looking for a reaction.

 

[MarkvW]

Did you type that during a fit of laughter?? What utter, dishonest rubbish. Unless you count after 1999, which was, coincidentally, the year that six samples of Lance's blood had EPO in them, and yet most of Greg's success came in an era where EPO was a non issue. Get a grip.

Don't feed the troll.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

The subject here is Lemond. Stay on topic or face sanctions. This means you especially, Polish.

Susan

 

[thehog]

Where did Starr actually finish at the Tour de Trump in relation to LeMond in 89?

I actually don't know just interested to how much he supposedly witnessed.

 

[BotanyBay]

Where did Starr actually finish at the Tour de Trump in relation to LeMond in 89?

I actually don't know just interested to how much he supposedly witnessed.

TdT was probably one of the very few times Starr ever crossed paths with Lemond. They played in different leagues.

 

[MacRoadie]

Where did Starr actually finish at the Tour de Trump in relation to LeMond in 89?

I actually don't know just interested to how much he supposedly witnessed.

Here is the general classification for 1989 (top-twenty only).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Trump#Top_20_General_Classification

I don't see either in GC, but I do see LeMond with a podium on Stage 8.

 

[thehog]

Here is the general classification for 1989 (top-twenty only).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Trump#Top_20_General_Classification

I don't see either in GC, but I do see LeMond with a podium on Stage 8.

Thanks not being funny but the Top 15 is not a bad field in its day. Its not the Tour but there's some decent names there. In saying that if they were doing the Andy Shleck and getting on the p!ss every night then maybe not !

Dag-Otto Lauritzen (NOR) 7-Eleven 33:22.4
Henk Lubberding (NED) Panasonic 1:54
Eric Vanderaerden* (BEL) Panasonic 2:34
Gert-Jan Theunisse (NED) PDM 3:24
Davis Phinney (USA) 7-Eleven 3:43
Ron Kiefel (USA) 7-Eleven 3:57
Alex Stieda (CAN) 7-Eleven 5:07
Allan Peiper (AUS) Panasonic 5:08
Guy Nulens (NED) Panasonic 6:14
Andy Hampsten (USA) 7-Eleven 6:18
Sergei Khmelinin (RUS) USSR 6:39
Eddy Bouwmans (NED) Netherlands 7:25
Viatcheslav Ekimov (RUS) USSR 8:32
M. Kankovsky (TCH) Czechoslovakia 8:47
Teun van Vliet (NED) Panasonic 9:25

 

[samerics]

Susan, if you are going to delete my posts could you do me the courtesy of pm'ing me and telling me about it? I responded to a post, haven't had a warning about anything and you delete it?


Thank you.

 

[Polish]

Here is that article from Kathy Lemond:

http://greglemond.com/blog/doping-and-those-we-love/

I believe both Kathy and Greg knew the death was doping related at the time or very soon afterwards. Greg knew there was a team wide doping program there, so I assume he told Kathy.

So when did Kathy write that article?

 

[pmcg76]

It's more credible because Oliver saw that slowness first-hand. I had to watch it from a support car

Oliver wrote:


Lemond (in shape) was (to almost any observer) superhuman. I'm sure that watching a post-appendix, tendinitis, shotgunned Lemond get back into shape first-hand was a superhuman experience.

But Oliver, you fail to address the question about your relationship with Lance. Did you or do you have one?

I am starting to wonder if Starr is confusing 89 and 90. He said it was 89 as the year he beat Fignon but LeMond finished 27th overall in 89. If he was being dropped on every hill, he would have been a lot further back. He was far worse in 90 than 89 which sounds more likely.

He actually finished 9th in the final TT within a minute of guys like Yates in 89. There are videos on youtube of the NBC broadcast of the 89 Tour de Trump including an interview with LeMond. He was riding with Coors Light as opposed to ADR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHfyUzfbJr8&feature=relmfu

 

[blutto]

I believe both Kathy and Greg knew the death was doping related at the time or very soon afterwards. Greg knew there was a team wide doping program there, so I assume he told Kathy.

So when did Kathy write that article?

...so why does GL use mitochondrial issues to explain his drop-off in performance when he leaves racing...and only much later ditch that excuse and latch onto the drug crusade...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

...so why does GL use mitochondrial issues to explain his drop-off in performance when he leaves racing...and only much later ditch that excuse and latch onto the drug crusade...

Cheers

blutto

Not much later. He was said in 1997 that doping and doctors played a role.