LeMond I

[Maxiton]

Thanks again, Max. I'm glad you liked the photo and it's refreshing to encounter someone here who actually consumes pro cycling for it sublimity, and not for the scandals orchestrated and encouraged by self-interested tabloid media who see the sport as nothing but a means to an end.

+1.

Yeah Joe you know this - not... He was a very very gifted rider I agree. EPO most likely not, banned substances - depends on who you ask.

I alluded to the likelihood that there had been some kind of questionable medical assistance by team doctors behind the scenes. This was based on a story I read in one or more cycling journals; but it was also based on my own cynicism, and my awareness that team doctors tended to play fast and loose in those days. It's pure supposition, however, without much to back it up. And in any case it's actually a far cry from, "depends on who you ask": as we've seen, $300,000, and Lemond's own outspokenness, have been asking for years and, so far, no one's come forward.

In a sport where buying or creating a concoction to give yourself an edge is as much a tradition as shaving, or a farmer's tan, it seems reasonable to assume that drugs are always at the pointy end of the race. I'm willing to concede, however, that Greg Lemond may have been cycling's one true clean champion. And unless someone credible does come forward, I think that's what we have to go with.

 

[Albatros]

+1.



I alluded to the likelihood that there had been some kind of questionable medical assistance by team doctors behind the scenes. This was based on a story I read in one or more cycling journals; but it was also based on my own cynicism, and my awareness that team doctors tended to play fast and loose in those days. It's pure supposition, however, without much to back it up. And in any case it's actually a far cry from, "depends on who you ask": as we've seen, $300,000, and Lemond's own outspokenness, have been asking for years and, so far, no one's come forward.

In a sport where buying or creating a concoction to give yourself an edge is as much a tradition as shaving, or a farmer's tan, it seems reasonable to assume that drugs are always at the pointy end of the race. I'm willing to concede, however, that Greg Lemond may have been cycling's one true clean champion. And unless someone credible does come forward, I think that's what we have to go with.

Well my cynism goes far beyond. I don't believe for a moment that cyclists went alone with the team doctors recommendations without suspecting what was going on. I can imagine every professional rider when they first joined a team being put in very clear terms what professional cycling was about, probably even before they became professionals.

Those accounts of naivity about what world they were in do not sound credible to me when you hear ex dopers saying that everyone was at it. And it is many who have said it, and if there is some doubts you only have to look at the Festina case or Operacion Puerto.

And Lemond confessed that he only realised that doping was being done by top riders six years after he became professional. That is some naivety. He only needed to read about the history of the sport he practised to deduct otherwise, or maybe mix with the peloton which was full of dopers.

So, yes, I don't believe him.

 

[Race Radio]

And Lemond confessed that he only realised that doping was being done by top riders six years after he became professional. That is some naivety. He only needed to read about the history of the sport he practised to deduct otherwise, or maybe mix with the peloton which was full of dopers.

So, yes, I don't believe him.

It helps if you have your facts correct

To teammates and staff Greg was anti doping his entire career. He left PDM because of they tried to get him to dope, and he said so publicly in 1989. 2 1/2 years after he retired he gave an interview where he discussed the negative effect Italian doping doctors like Ferrari were having on the sport.

He did not wait 7 years

 

[gillan1969]

Well my cynism goes far beyond. I don't believe for a moment that cyclists went alone with the team doctors recommendations without suspecting what was going on. I can imagine every professional rider when they first joined a team being put in very clear terms what professional cycling was about, probably even before they became professionals.

Those accounts of naivity about what world they were in do not sound credible to me when you hear ex dopers saying that everyone was at it. And it is many who have said it, and if there is some doubts you only have to look at the Festina case or Operacion Puerto.

And Lemond confessed that he only realised that doping was being done by top riders six years after he became professional. That is some naivety. He only needed to read about the history of the sport he practised to deduct otherwise, or maybe mix with the peloton which was full of dopers.

So, yes, I don't believe him.

lemond lived in america in the late 70s early 80's, 'the clinic' nor anything remotely like it existed and so its hardly difficult to envisage someone not really understanding the euro culture before arriving.....

and when he came over he was often at odds with the team e.g. reading books at the dinner table and having kathy with him etc. a lot of the renault guys also didn't speak english well...i.e. he wasn't an integrated part of the team in the same way as a brochard or a virenque was at festina say....
its not a leap of imagination to belive that due to his status he wasn't treated like a n other neo-pro and that others were wary of him with readrs introducing 'doping'. Indeed they may have made the automatic assumption (as they did obree) that he was already being 'looked after' as he was so fast...

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

lemond lived in america in the late 70s early 80's, 'the clinic' nor anything remotely like it existed and so its hardly difficult to envisage someone not really understanding the euro culture before arriving.....

and when he came over he was often at odds with the team e.g. reading books at the dinner table and having kathy with him etc. a lot of the renault guys also didn't speak english well...i.e. he wasn't an integrated part of the team in the same way as a brochard or a virenque was at festina say....
its not a leap of imagination to belive that due to his status he wasn't treated like a n other neo-pro and that others were wary of him with readrs introducing 'doping'. Indeed they may have made the automatic assumption (as they did obree) that he was already being 'looked after' as he was so fast...

On the other hand, would it be so terrible if Lemond has taken some products? The products of the eighties did NOT turn a donkey in a race horse. You either had talent or you didn't. Sure, you had 'pot Belges' and stuff like that but you really can' t win a Tour de France, Giro or Vuelta on uppers.

I once read Lemond brought creatine into the peloton, hardly a PED we might say.

 

[Albatros]

It helps if you have your facts correct

To teammates and staff Greg was anti doping his entire career. He left PDM because of they tried to get him to dope, and he said so publicly in 1989. 2 1/2 years after he retired he gave an interview where he discussed the negative effect Italian doping doctors like Ferrari were having on the sport.

He did not wait 7 years

I am not saying that he waited seven years to criticise doping practices. I am saying that it took him 6 years as professional, [from his own words] to realise that doping was being done by the top riders.

I wonder what made him be so naive when even his chidlhood hero Eddy Merck, was caught doing doping several times during his career. I guess he thought top riders of his time were as clean as he was.

 

[Albatros]

lemond lived in america in the late 70s early 80's, 'the clinic' nor anything remotely like it existed and so its hardly difficult to envisage someone not really understanding the euro culture before arriving.....

and when he came over he was often at odds with the team e.g. reading books at the dinner table and having kathy with him etc. a lot of the renault guys also didn't speak english well...i.e. he wasn't an integrated part of the team in the same way as a brochard or a virenque was at festina say....
its not a leap of imagination to belive that due to his status he wasn't treated like a n other neo-pro and that others were wary of him with readrs introducing 'doping'. Indeed they may have made the automatic assumption (as they did obree) that he was already being 'looked after' as he was so fast...

Well, Lemond learned French from the very beginning of his professional career in Europe and he is a smart guy.

I just find it amazing that it took him six years to realise that the rest of the peloton including the big guns were doing PEDs.

Do you believe that if doping was as widespread as many insiders have said they would have managed to hide it from Greg for so long? Not only that, wouldn't they have openly introduced to him, if he didn't know by then, the general doping practices that were taking place?

They even had the argot for the different doping substances. It may have been Omerta for the general public, but among the peloton it must have been vox populi. I can not concieve it otherwise.

 

[ultimobici]

Well my cynism goes far beyond. I don't believe for a moment that cyclists went alone with the team doctors recommendations without suspecting what was going on. I can imagine every professional rider when they first joined a team being put in very clear terms what professional cycling was about, probably even before they became professionals.

Those accounts of naivity about what world they were in do not sound credible to me when you hear ex dopers saying that everyone was at it. And it is many who have said it, and if there is some doubts you only have to look at the Festina case or Operacion Puerto.

And Lemond confessed that he only realised that doping was being done by top riders six years after he became professional. That is some naivety. He only needed to read about the history of the sport he practised to deduct otherwise, or maybe mix with the peloton which was full of dopers.

So, yes, I don't believe him.

Think about it logically. LeMond has never shied away from the issue of doping, far from it. His actions and words of the last 20 years just beg for someone to call him out. But they haven't come forward despite large financial inducements. Bear in mind that in his era there were no team buses, no team doctors, teams were much much closer knit. So hiding a doping regime was ear harder.

Add in the fact that old school doping was as sophisticated as sticking avgas in your car. Look at Riis. In the 80's he was almost unemployable. Fignon had to scrounge him a ride he was so crap. Come EPO he toppled Indurain. EPO allowed a rider to kick *** all day every day. Speed & hormones didn't. There was a price. One day you're invincible the next you blew.

 

[Cloxxki]

I wonder what made him be so naive when even his chidlhood hero Eddy Merck, was caught doing doping several times during his career. I guess he thought top riders of his time were as clean as he was.

He was keeping up with them, so why would he distrust the top Europeans? Europe is the place to be, larger gene pool, etc. He must have been quite content to not be an also-ran. He surely didn't expect to take all he wanted to win, with ease? He may have been more talented than he realized. This realization likely grew with his knowledge of the doping culture which came later in his career.

 

[BotanyBay]

lemond lived in america in the late 70s early 80's, 'the clinic' nor anything remotely like it existed and so its hardly difficult to envisage someone not really understanding the euro culture before arriving.....

and when he came over he was often at odds with the team e.g. reading books at the dinner table and having kathy with him etc. a lot of the renault guys also didn't speak english well...i.e. he wasn't an integrated part of the team in the same way as a brochard or a virenque was at festina say....
its not a leap of imagination to belive that due to his status he wasn't treated like a n other neo-pro and that others were wary of him with readrs introducing 'doping'. Indeed they may have made the automatic assumption (as they did obree) that he was already being 'looked after' as he was so fast...

Remember when the press caught him (on camera) eating an ice cream cone (with his wife) during an important major stage race? It was front-page scandal in the European media. As if Mary Lou Retton had been caught in a crack den.

 

[Race Radio]

I am not saying that he waited seven years to criticise doping practices. I am saying that it took him 6 years as professional, [from his own words] to realise that doping was being done by the top riders.

I wonder what made him be so naive when even his chidlhood hero Eddy Merck, was caught doing doping several times during his career. I guess he thought top riders of his time were as clean as he was.

Did you race in the 80's?

I am American but I grew up in Europe in the 80's. The internet did not exist, coverage of cycling was sparse at best. When I moved back to the US I was lucky to see results a month late.

The clinic did not exist.

LeMond has said that he made his position clear and that the other riders, and Guimard did not even joke with him about it. The very first words he spoke with Paul Kochli in the 1984 Tour were

"The other guys tell me you are very against doping in your team?"

Paul then went on to described his vision of the team, training methods, and the ability to compete and win clean.

I have not talked with Greg for 20 years. We were never friends but I do know many of the people who worked closely with him for years. They all say he rode clean.

I can think of one person in particular who would know for certain. He worked closely with Greg for decades. He and Greg are no longer friends and despite the animosity between them he maintains that Greg rode clean.

The facts remain on Greg's side, there is zero evidence that he doped. None.

 

[Race Radio]

EPO allowed a rider to kick *** all day every day. Speed & hormones didn't. There was a price. One day you're invincible the next you blew.

And speed did not work in the heat. All these riders who were competitive in the spring were nowhere in July. Add to this that most steroids were easily caught in the drug tests of the day. Even testosterone was tested for from 1982 on.

Unlike the GT riders of the 00's Greg actually raced 80-100 days a year, compared to the 40 that Wonderboy often did. Tested far more often.

 

[Benotti69]

Time to close this thread.

Once again the legion of 'yella minions' have failed to attach any doping to LeMond.

 

[BotanyBay]

Starr spoke of Lemond as if they were actual contemporaries (which they werre not... they just happened to be in a race or two together). So since it is Steve Tilford's blog, and since Steve most absolutely WAS a contemporary of Lemond's, I asked him to weigh-in:

Botany-Oliver did race with Greg. I don’t know how many races, but he was at the Tour de Trump where Greg was a disaster. I would have bet anything at that point that Greg would not go on to win the Tour that year. He was a mess. Obviously I would have lost.

But, like I’ve said here before, Greg Lemond was the most talented cyclist I had the pleasure to race with. I started racing juniors with Greg and he most likely could have won the Tour when he was a junior if all the stars were aligned. He was that good. I raced in Europe with Fignon when we were amateurs and Fignon wasn’t even close to Greg’s abilities. And with Hinault on mutilple occasion, on his team and against him. Greg was much better, but Bernard was getting close to retirement at that time.

Greg had some ****ty luck in life and got shot. That was a game changer for him. He never got back to the form or the unbeatable mental capacity he had before he was hurt.

The question is, could a shot up Greg Lemond win the Tour de France without drugs. Absolutely. He was that much better than everyone else at the time.

Most notable, this statement:

But, like I’ve said here before, Greg Lemond was the most talented cyclist I had the pleasure to race with.

Why is this worthy of note? Because Steve Tilford NEVER QUIT RACING. He has raced continuously (at en elite level) for coming up on 40 years. Steve raced with pretty much everyone that Greg has been compared to in modern times. And the above quote is how Tilford remembers Greg. And he didn't have to say it. But he did.

When Starr happened into Greg Lemond's world by chance of a domestic pro team getting an invite to the only domestic pro stage race in the USA, Greg had:

- Gotten shot.
- Spent over a year recovering from the wounds.
- Gotten tendinitis by trying to get BACK into shape
- Underwent appendix surgery
- Contracted mononucleosis
- Still showed-up and rode TdT, even getting on the PODIUM for one stage (unlike Starr), and "did poorly" (ahem)

And later:
- Did well at the Giro
- Won the TdF in a spectacular close-call

Only a rider of Greg Lemond's caliber could do this. Greg was the Golden Child.

 

[jamiephillips]

Robert Millar said pretty much the same, that Lemond was the most talented he ever saw. That means a lot coming from Millar, somebody not known for sycophancy! Sure I read this in Richard Moore's biography, In Search of Robert Millar.

 

[goober]

Starr spoke of Lemond as if they were actual contemporaries (which they werre not... they just happened to be in a race or two together). So since it is Steve Tilford's blog, and since Steve most absolutely WAS a contemporary of Lemond's, I asked him to weigh-in:



Most notable, this statement:



Why is this worthy of note? Because Steve Tilford NEVER QUIT RACING. He has raced continuously (at en elite level) for coming up on 40 years. Steve raced with pretty much everyone that Greg has been compared to in modern times. And the above quote is how Tilford remembers Greg. And he didn't have to say it. But he did.

When Starr happened into Greg Lemond's world by chance of a domestic pro team getting an invite to the only domestic pro stage race in the USA, Greg had:

- Gotten shot.
- Spent over a year recovering from the wounds.
- Gotten tendinitis by trying to get BACK into shape
- Underwent appendix surgery
- Contracted mononucleosis
- Still showed-up and rode TdT, even getting on the PODIUM for one stage (unlike Starr), and "did poorly" (ahem)

And later:
- Did well at the Giro
- Won the TdF in a spectacular close-call

Only a rider of Greg Lemond's caliber could do this. Greg was the Golden Child.

Wow - I have seen Lance fanboys but you win the fanboy award. Holy sheet! And to quote a notable Greg Lemond fanboy himself (Steve Tilford) does nothing for me. Ask Greg is he ever used a drug (recreational or not) on the banned substance list while a licensed rider.

 

[Race Radio]

Wow - I have seen Lance fanboys but you win the fanboy award. Holy sheet! And to quote a notable Greg Lemond fanboy himself (Steve Tilford) does nothing for me. Ask Greg is he ever used a drug (recreational or not) on the banned substance list while a licensed rider.

How about you ask your buddy George if he ever had his EPO seized by customs back in the 90's?

 

[MacRoadie]

Wow - I have seen Lance fanboys but you win the fanboy award. Holy sheet! And to quote a notable Greg Lemond fanboy himself (Steve Tilford) does nothing for me. Ask Greg is he ever used a drug (recreational or not) on the banned substance list while a licensed rider.

Save him the trouble: tell the world when, where, and what.

Can't wait for the "I know someone who knows someone who saw Greg do blow at a Christmas party in Boulder in 1984".

 

[mewmewmew13]

Save him the trouble: tell the world when, where, and what.

Can't wait for the "I know someone who knows someone who saw Greg do blow at a Christmas party in Boulder in 1984".[/quote]

lol!
......

 

[BotanyBay]

Wow - I have seen Lance fanboys but you win the fanboy award. Holy sheet! And to quote a notable Greg Lemond fanboy himself (Steve Tilford) does nothing for me. Ask Greg is he ever used a drug (recreational or not) on the banned substance list while a licensed rider.

I think you know how he'd answer that, so you're either a troll or you have something of substance to say. Choose.

 

[BotanyBay]

How about you ask your buddy George if he ever had his EPO seized by customs back in the 90's?

I smell a Freedom of Information Act request brewing.

 

[Polish]

lemond lived in america in the late 70s early 80's, 'the clinic' nor anything remotely like it existed and so its hardly difficult to envisage someone not really understanding the euro culture before arriving.....

and when he came over he was often at odds with the team e.g. reading books at the dinner table and having kathy with him etc. a lot of the renault guys also didn't speak english well...i.e. he wasn't an integrated part of the team in the same way as a brochard or a virenque was at festina say....
its not a leap of imagination to belive that due to his status he wasn't treated like a n other neo-pro and that others were wary of him with readrs introducing 'doping'. Indeed they may have made the automatic assumption (as they did obree) that he was already being 'looked after' as he was so fast...

Please, stop with the Country Bumpkin myth.
"Greg lived in America during the Andy Griffith era - how could he know about doping?"

Greg raced as a teen in Belguim. EddyB was his coach and mentor. Sure, maybe some other American Pro Cyclists who won the Nevada City Classic back then were oblivious to doping. Maybe. But Greg? Come on please.

I think there are 2 reasons Greg did not dope:
1) He did not need to dope to win.
2) If he was caught, it would have cost him financially Big Time.

Why was Greg so paranoid about having his samples tampered with?

"Because he was such a champion of clean sport"
I call major BS on that. He knew cycling was a doping cesspool from very early on. And the "I thought "program" meant "training diary" is such BS". Sure, he thought that. Big Deal. Translation error. Learning a new lanquage. But to use that as a spiel to imply he did not know about doping is BS. Sorry to burst your bubble pop. Money money ka-ching money.

And don't get me started on the "emergency appendectomy" myth oh boy.

 

[blutto]

Robert Millar said pretty much the same, that Lemond was the most talented he ever saw. That means a lot coming from Millar, somebody not known for sycophancy! Sure I read this in Richard Moore's biography, In Search of Robert Millar.

...yeah in that same book I'm pretty sure that Miller says he saw someone, who he refers to as THE perfect Golden Child, walk on water...there has been, since the publishing of that book, considerable debate by specialists in the field, as to who that may have been...some researchers say its the second coming of something or other and others state its the anti-something or other...

...either way its a wonderful book...

Cheers

blutto

 

[BotanyBay]

Greg raced as a teen in Belguim. EddyB was his coach and mentor. Sure, maybe some other American Pro Cyclists who won the Nevada City Classic back then were oblivious to doping. Maybe. But Greg? Come on please.

Well, Polish is giving away his age. He's obviously an Armstrong-era cycling enthusiast, as he knows next to nothing about Greg Lemond.

Yes Polish, tell us all about the other American Pro cyclists back when Greg won Nevada City (as Greg himself was not yet a pro... not even a senior amateur...but a mere junior).

And I'm sure Greg will be happy to talk about all of those good times racing as a junior in Belgium with his life-long bike racing mentor, Eddie B. (ha)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Wow - I have seen Lance fanboys but you win the fanboy award. Holy sheet! And to quote a notable Greg Lemond fanboy himself (Steve Tilford) does nothing for me. Ask Greg is he ever used a drug (recreational or not) on the banned substance list while a licensed rider.

That's easy - as you appear to know, he has admitted to smoking weed when he was young.

Can you explain why Greg would have no problem admitting that (which you rightly say was on the banned list) and then he would not admit taking Performance Enhancing Drugs?