LeMond I

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Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
Well, Polish is giving away his age. He's obviously an Armstrong-era cycling enthusiast, as he knows next to nothing about Greg Lemond.

Yes Polish, tell us all about the other American Pro cyclists back when Greg won Nevada City (as Greg himself was not yet a pro... not even a senior amateur...but a mere junior).

And I'm sure Greg will be happy to talk about all of those good times racing as a junior in Belgium with his life-long bike racing mentor, Eddie B. (ha)

Greg won Nevada City in 1981. He was a pro that year. Do you think all the pro's at Nevada City that year were oblivious to doping? An American Race and all - not Euro. Do you really believe Greg was oblivious at that age?

When was Greg working with EddyB?
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Polish said:
Greg won Nevada City in 1981. He was a pro that year. Do you think all the pro's at Nevada City that year were oblivious to doping? An American Race and all - not Euro. Do you really believe Greg was oblivious at that age?

When was Greg working with EddyB?

Greg LeMond was the winner for the three consecutive years (1979-81). Ther first of which, he was a junior.

I'd love to talk about the other pros at Nevada City in 1981, however, there were not very many pros in attendance back then. Can you name some?
 
Aug 13, 2009
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MacRoadie said:
Save him the trouble: tell the world when, where, and what.

Can't wait for the "I know someone who knows someone who saw Greg do blow at a Christmas party in Boulder in 1984".

Goober is confused again. It was that Age group Tri Geek that is into the hookers and blow
 
BotanyBay said:
Not sure he ever did. He wasn't really in much need of Eddie's help by the time they first met.

Eddie worked with the junior National Team (at the OTC) in '77 and '78, and Greg was on those teams. I'm unaware of any personal coaching relationship. Soon thereafter, Eddie B. started working more with the trackies.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Goober is confused again. It was that Age group Tri Geek that is into the hookers and blow

He should start a team. Find his best master amigos that actually want to do some winning for a change. Plan. Execute. Win. Then, get a vehicle wrap for his Mini Cooper. Get jerseys printed up. Do a camp in vegas. Execute and win. LiveStrong(R).

Kings of the industrial park crit circuit.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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MacRoadie said:
Eddie worked with the junior National Team (at the OTC) in '77 and '78, and Greg was on those teams. I'm unaware of any personal coaching relationship. Soon thereafter, Eddie B. started working more with the trackies.

I could be wrong. Back then, I was watching breaking away and dreaming of a bike with toe clips (like them TdF racers used to go fast with).
 
BotanyBay said:
I could be wrong. Back then, I was watching breaking away and dreaming of a bike with toe clips (like them TdF racers used to go fast with).

Just saying Eddie was at Squaw Valley. He was also fresh "off the boat", didn't speak any English, and I doubt had earned the confidence necessary to promote a doping program.

That the first known association with doping dates to 1980, most of those riders had been on the team since '76, and none of them have ever mentioned any doping prior to '80, that would suggest that in the '77-'78 time frame things were still clean.
 
May 18, 2011
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blutto said:
...yeah in that same book I'm pretty sure that Miller says he saw someone, who he refers to as THE perfect Golden Child, walk on water...

Sorry Pluto I must've missed that page. Although the impression I get of Millar is that he/ she is a pretty straight talking non fanboy/ fangirl type.

Cheers

Jamie
 
Albatros said:
I am not saying that he waited seven years to criticise doping practices. I am saying that it took him 6 years as professional, [from his own words] to realise that doping was being done by the top riders.

I wonder what made him be so naive when even his chidlhood hero Eddy Merck, was caught doing doping several times during his career. I guess he thought top riders of his time were as clean as he was.

Indeed, imagine his surprise when being told he had won the 1983 Dauphine Libere stage race in his third year as a pro (pre Worlds, Tour wins) because Pascal Simon had been penalised 10 minutes for a doping offence. Did they wait until 1987 to tell him.

Simon may not have been the best, but would surely counts as a top rider.

Just being a bit sarcy. I could never stand LeMond as a rider - always came across as bit of a whiner to me - but I agree, there is nothing to suggest he was ever a doper. And following his exit from the sport, I would agree that the dope (of others) effectively killed off his career. There were no riders racing competitively up to their 40s then (M. Zoetemelk excepted...)
 
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Compare that to to EPO pumped up Lemond:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjZt3kleCb8
[around 5.50 we see the EPO power of Lemond]

You are a funny man. It is well, in fact very well, documented Fignon had the same aero - possibilities at hand but out of sheerr arrogance made the decision not to use them. He wanted to ride with his beautifull pony tail in HIS Paris, not wearing a helmet and so on and so on.

Did you even see that Champs TT? In comparison to Lemond Fignon looked like a parachute taking wind.
Your arguments are getting even worse as we speak. Lemond in fact took 47 seconds out world class TT'er Fignon. With the aero advantages. In fact we ought to say Fignon was very good on the Champs as we see the result of this mountain TT.
http://www.lagrandeboucle.com/article.php3?id_article=559

In the first TT he took 56 seconds on Fignon, what a surprise. Fignon was warned we might say?
http://www.lagrandeboucle.com/article.php3?id_article=548

But keep on trolling. One might even say you are funny. But try to keep the facts real, oke?Fignon rode with a closed back wheel, or how do you say this in English.

VEry good point.

What struck me about 89 with the pendulum swinging between Fignon and LeMond was neither ride was like the powerhouse efforts we saw later from 95 onwards.

Both Fignon and LeMond rode with the knowledge they could blow up at anytime time. Riders tend not to ride like that anymore – they barnstorm their way to victory. Another note was the lack of team mates which meant it really came down to man against man. In the era of team wide programs you had entire teams delivering their number one rider to the foot of the last climb.

LeMond states his tactics wore poor in 89 but I though he rode an excellent tactical race. He was always careful to spend too much time in the wind. He couldn’t afford to otherwise he’d blow.

From a personal note it’s much more rewarding watching a Tour like 89 rather than a powerhouse effort of total domination that we saw through the 90’s onwards. The fans can feel ripped of that we don’t see Tours like this anymore.

Or maybe just the roads and bikes improved more than we imagined – wasn’t that the excuse? :rolleyes:
 
Oct 25, 2010
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thehog said:
What struck me about 89 with the pendulum swinging between Fignon and LeMond was neither ride was like the powerhouse efforts we saw later from 95 onwards.

Both Fignon and LeMond rode with the knowledge they could blow up at anytime time. Riders tend not to ride like that anymore – they barnstorm their way to victory. Another note was the lack of team mates which meant it really came down to man against man. In the era of team wide programs you had entire teams delivering their number one rider to the foot of the last climb.

LeMond states his tactics wore poor in 89 but I though he rode an excellent tactical race. He was always careful to spend too much time in the wind. He couldn’t afford to otherwise he’d blow.

From a personal note it’s much more rewarding watching a Tour like 89 rather than a powerhouse effort of total domination that we saw through the 90’s onwards. The fans can feel ripped of that we don’t see Tours like this anymore.

Or maybe just the roads and bikes improved more than we imagined – wasn’t that the excuse? :rolleyes:

Pre-EPO, we rarely saw 5+ minute pulls on the front. They didn't have the gas to do it. Now its the norm.
 
BotanyBay said:
Pre-EPO, we rarely saw 5+ minute pulls on the front. They didn't have the gas to do it. Now its the norm.

In addtion no one would have the confidence to do it. Thats the other aspect that EPO/Blood doping brings; is it gives you phenomenal confidence that you're not going to blow.

Watching the Chicken and Contador track stand then attack each other in 2007 was probably just how silly it got.

1999+ in particular 2004 was plain absurdity.

Forget the dope tests it didn't pass the straight face test!
 
That particular thing about not knowing when you're going to blow up and not being able to pull for +5 minutes might have as much to do with power meters and heart rate monitors as with EPO, though.
 
hrotha said:
That particular thing about not knowing when you're going to blow up and not being able to pull for +5 minutes might have as much to do with power meters and heart rate monitors as with EPO, though.

Agreed. I think it all worked together. EPO/BD, power meter, lactate tests let the riders know exactly how much time you can push at x watts.

Wasn't there a story of Bruyneel calling Ferrari when Patani attacked in 2000? Ferrari came back and said he had 7km in him at the watts he was pushing. Because he had Marco's data on file he could accurately estimate his power per distance.

I think the point we were making was from a visual perspective regardless of watts it all looked a little silly.
 
hrotha said:
That particular thing about not knowing when you're going to blow up and not being able to pull for +5 minutes might have as much to do with power meters and heart rate monitors as with EPO, though.

Perhaps also twenty-odd years of nutrition and hydration research.
 
May 18, 2009
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I asked this earlier in the thread, and all I hear are crickets and tinnitis.

When did GL speak out about his knowledge of EPO? Thanks.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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ChrisE said:
I asked this earlier in the thread, and all I hear are crickets and tinnitis.

When did GL speak out about his knowledge of EPO? Thanks.
Interview from 1998
http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/lemond98.html

Bicyclist: Do you think the sport of professional cycling has changed since you retired?

LeMond: Well, I have to laugh. There's a rider that was on the U.S. Postal Service, an American rider that had never raced in Europe, who told me how much cycling has changed in the three or four years since I retired, how much harder and faster it's gotten. As he's telling me this, I'm thinking, 'Is this guy trying to insult me?' [laughing] The best part about it was that he went and raced in Moline, Illinois and Jeff Bradley [a friend who competed on the amateur national team with LeMond, as well as professionally with 7-Eleven], who's been retired ten years, trained only 900 base miles before this race to get back into shape. No more. And then Jeff finished 8th or 9th, and this guy finished behind him. And the Postal rider is a pro! How do you judge that it's changed? There's no way. The talent hasn't changed at all. I do think, however, that the Italians have changed the sport in a really bad way. It has become much more medical. There's no doubt that riders are probably fitter now at the beginning of the season. But that started in the mid '80s.

Bicyclist: Medical?

LeMond: Yes, medical.

Bicyclist: Drugs?

LeMond: [hesitates] I don't know that it's drugs exactly...

Bicyclist: Then let me restate the question. Do you feel that drug use is prevalent in the pro peloton?

LeMond: Well, it's hard to say. I don't know if it's drugs, but there are substances. I don't know that I buy the excuse by people who say they didn't perform well in a one-day race because the winners were on drugs. In a one-day race, there's no reason you cannot perform as well as someone taking drugs. EPO (Erythropoeitin, a naturally-ocurring and synthesized hormone that increases red blood cell count) just increases your red blood cells. Here in America you can train at altitude any time you want and get the same benefit from altitude as from EPO. Steroids, on the other hand, accelerate recovery. I went steroid free throughout my whole career. There were always rumors of guys taking stuff, but more than steroids it was the cortisone, the catabolic, not the anabolic. Of course there were tests, and people have been caught with testosterone. The Italians, somewhere in the '80s, figured out how to take small amounts to be on the legal side of it, which does help recovery and would help tremendously in a three week race. I've heard two sides of the drug issue. First of all, you have to understand the doping mentality. I don't think there's a rider in the peloton that prefers to take drugs. It's simply what doing to keep up with competition, and if they think everyone's getting away with it, they feel like they need to use it, too. Half of these guys haven't finished high school, have a wife and three kids at home, and if they don't perform, they won't get paid. The problem with Americans is that our ethics are sometimes a bit nave-don't get me wrong, the American ethic is really good, I like the American attitude, but it doesn't really bite into the reality of situation. I know my old teammate, Eric Boyer, retired because he didn't want to touch the stuff, and I know many other people who made it through clean, such as Andy Hampsten and Steve Bauer. Every rider on La Vie Claire was clean, that was Paul Keochli's big deal to make sure he had a clean team. But I do know in the early '90s there was a huge movement in Italy. Riders that had been racing for six or seven years were suddenly riding really well. To me, that looks a little suspicious. The drug issue is something I often thought about during my career. Toward the end, I always wondered, 'Is everyone taking drugs, while I stay clean, causing me to perform so poorly?' But there wasn't a drug in the world that would've helped me. One thing I do know is that a teammate of mine went to an Italian team and he died of a heart attack a year later. It was a little disappointing. I do think the riders are trying to say, 'Hey, we're for control testing.' The riders are the ones who pushed for the haematocrit level tests, so people would stay within the limits.
 
May 18, 2009
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Good find. I did google search a week ago when I asked this and coudn't find anything.

Is this the first time he spoke about it? He seems to equate it to no more benefit than training at altitude. He does admit cortizoids were a benefit, and test was a big benefit in a 3 week race. Don't let the other thread find this out. :cool:

So, he admits in this 1998 interview nothing has changed in cycling by pointing out Bradley's exploits. Was this along the same timeframe he was still claiming the blood disease was why he fell off?

What I am curious about is when he discovered the benefit of EPO, and when he started publicly saying the EPO is why he fell off and not the blood disease. He still alludes to the blood disease ie about how no drugs could benefit him.

I'm just trying to square this with his admission I think in 92 or 93 that his numbers were better than ever.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Albatros said:
Nobody I guess will dispute the great natural talents of Lemond, but he surely is not the only truly gifted rider that has blessed the peloton. When I read the accounts of other great champions who put doping, however primitive it was in their eras, as something essential to survive in those gruelling races, I just can not digest that a clean rider would beat those exceptional riders on mineral water alone. So doping, even in the amphetamine era was as important as natural talent to win the big races.

By the way, when does the EPO era commence? Cause I have checked the average speed of the 1991 Tour and it is only half a Km per hour faster than the previous year, the last Lemond won. Curiously enough, Lemond managed only 8 seconds worse time than Indurain in a 75 km time trial in the 1991 Tour. Was Indurain also a natural talent like Lemond or it just simply shows that Greg was able to compete with the very best clean? Why Greg average speed in the TT final stage of the 89 Tour withstood the test of time for so many years even beating the average speeds of the EPO era druggies?

One thing is certain, if this bloke was clean he certainly was head and shoulders above anyone who ever competed in the race.

Why not? It happens (see Babe Ruth)...
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Had him (Thorpe) on my mind... but no, no one ever dominated any game like Babe did. No Gretzky, no Rice, no Montana, no Carl Lewis, not even Merckx. Ruth had as many walks as entire teams. Same with homeruns. He was an awesome pitcher too. He was the real thing. And no PED´s back then.
 
A

Anonymous

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Sorry, OT, but I have to say this is, by far, the best thread in the clinic (so far, anyway) and maybe the best thread on this board... Possible exception of the beer thread of course.

Seriously good stuff here. Carry on.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Remember, that Greg was well-retired when he gave this interview, and he brought his late-80's level of knowledge with him. Everything he said post-retirement is just out-of-the-loop scuttlebutt.

He made some statements where he probably didn't give enough credit to the actual power of the oxygen vectors on single-day performances. I think if he could revisit many of those statements, he would (based on current-day knowledge)
 
Scott SoCal said:
Sorry, OT, but I have to say this is, by far, the best thread in the clinic (so far, anyway) and maybe the best thread on this board... Possible exception of the beer thread of course.

Seriously good stuff here. Carry on.

No hate here. Hate don't come knocking on LeMond's door no more.

I would add back in the day when he came out with his anti-doping statements the comments sections were horrid. They'd get littered with the bitter, jealous, STFU type of bile.

Glad this thread is writing history as it should have been.
 
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