LeMond I

[Turner29]

Thus, EPO was available to Greg Lemond in 1989. Many believe the "vitamin injections" that turned around his season were in fact EPO.

 

[BroDeal]

Thus, EPO was available to Greg Lemond in 1989. Many believe the "vitamin injections" that turned around his season were in fact EPO.

Many people are idiots. An iron shot in the Giro does not an EPO program make. It does not work that way.

The turn around of his season is also largely a myth made from what he said about the Giro and his early season races. It came from frustration with not being at the level he used to be, and he played it up after winning the Tour. It made for a good story. The facts were a little different. He placed something like 34th in the '89 Giro. He was not climbing with the leaders, but he was not in the Wiggobus either.

 

[Turner29]

Many people are idiots. An iron shot in the Giro does not an EPO program make. It does not work that way.

I know. But it would set him up for a Tour comeback, especially at a time when neither EPO nor Hematocrit was tested. In addition, since it was not banned, it could easily be viewed as a "super vitamin" shot.

 

[BotanyBay]

Thus, EPO was available to Greg Lemond in 1989. Many believe the "vitamin injections" that turned around his season were in fact EPO.

"Many" like you, Oliver? Name some contemporaries of his that are willing to go on-record as believing that. Also, read Tillford's statement after I requested that he chime-in. I personally believe that most (if not all) of Greg's contemporaries would say something similar.

Sorry, I screwed up the approval date data on EPO.

 

[LegendRider]

Apologies if this has been covered, but I haven't read every page in this thread.

Has any cycling journalist ever tracked down Otto Jacome to ask about the infamous iron injection from the 89 Giro? I strongly believe LeMond was clean, but I'd still like to hear a coherent and plausible explanation from Jacome.

 

[Albatros]

Thus, EPO was available to Greg Lemond in 1989. Many believe the "vitamin injections" that turned around his season were in fact EPO.

Extremely likely. From an anemic cadaver a few weeks earlier in the Giro to 55 kms per hour in the last stage of the TdF, a record that took many years to best by the most doped cyclists in the history of the sport.

But anyway, if he doped, he did the same as his predecessors and his followers. Nothing to be ashamed of, although some people coming from very puritan cultures find it harder to accept and to live in peace with themselves, and that includes the athletes and their followers. A very interesting sociological phenomenon.

 

[hrotha]

Extremely likely. From an anemic cadaver a few weeks earlier in the Giro to 55 kms per hour in the last stage of the TdF, a record that took many years to best by the most doped cyclists in the history of the sport.

You don't do EPO by taking one injection during the Giro and then flying a month later at the Tour. It doesn't work like that. 1989 is also an extremely early date for EPO - it's just a very far-fetched theory. I could give you any illegal stimulant or whatever, but EPO? No way.

Also, you can't compare average speeds like that. There's a reason why road racing doesn't really have records, except vaguely on well-established climbs. That particular ITT was relatively short, it was downhill and with tailwind. Of course everybody went mighty fast there.

 

[Turner29]

Extremely likely. From an anemic cadaver a few weeks earlier in the Giro to 55 kms per hour in the last stage of the TdF, a record that took many years to best by the most doped cyclists in the history of the sport.

But anyway, if he doped, he did the same as his predecessors and his followers. Nothing to be ashamed of, although some people coming from very puritan cultures find it harder to accept and to live in peace with themselves, and that includes the athletes and their followers. A very interesting sociological phenomenon.

Yes, the best evidence is that it took years for doped riders with much better aerodynamic equipment and positions to equal his speed.

 

[BroDeal]

Extremely likely. From an anemic cadaver a few weeks earlier in the Giro to 55 kms per hour in the last stage of the TdF, a record that took many years to best by the most doped cyclists in the history of the sport.

Cadaver, eh?

1989

Het Volk, March 4, 17th

Tirreno Adriatico, March 9-15, 9th in stage 1 ITT, 6th Overall GC

Critérium International, March 25-26, 2nd in Stage 1, 8th in Stage 2, 16th in Stage 3 (ITT), 4th Overall GC

Ronde van Vlaaderen, April 2, 63rd

Tour of America, 3rd Overall GC

Giro d’Italia, May 21 - June 11, 8th in Stage 4, 2nd in Stage 22 (ITT), 39th Overall GC

 

[Turner29]

Side commentary -- VO2 max is not increased by cardiac trauma...

 

[Turner29]

Giro d’Italia, May 21 - June 11, 8th in Stage 4, 2nd in Stage 22 (ITT), 39th Overall GC

Looks like by Stage 22, the EPO program was starting to work.

 

[BroDeal]

"Many" like you, Oliver? Name some contemporaries of his that are willing to go on-record as believing that. Also, read Tillford's statement after I requested that he chime-in. I personally believe that most (if not all) of Greg's contemporaries would say something similar.

Sorry, I screwed up the approval date data on EPO.

Hold it. This is THAT wannabe from Tilford's blog?

 

[Jeremiah]

Yes, the best evidence is that it took years for doped riders with much better aerodynamic equipment and positions to equal his speed.

Positions? How does Armstrong's position compare with LeMond's? You've got to be effing joking? Anybody have any photos so we can Rotfloao?

 

[darkcloud]

More to the point the fact that Starr couldn't keep up would lead one to think he is wee bit FoS.

FoS=Full o S*h*i*t???
Sounds like it....

 

[131313]

Positions? How does Armstrong's position compare with LeMond's? You've got to be effing joking? Anybody have any photos so we can Rotfloao?

I love when the LeMond deniers trot out the whole "fastest TT ever" thing. They conveniently forget that such notable luminaries such as Helmut Wechselberger road the same TT @ 32.6 mph. With no aero gear... (I just picked him because he has a funny name. Some other lesser known guys went faster).

Folks need to chew on that one for a bit, then admit the reality that maybe, just maybe, the course had something to do with it.

 

[Turner29]

I love when the LeMond deniers trot out the whole "fastest TT ever" thing. They conveniently forget that such notable luminaries such as Helmut Wechselberger road the same TT @ 32.6 mph. With no aero gear... (I just picked him because he has a funny name. Some other lesser known guys went faster).

Folks need to chew on that one for a bit, then admit the reality that maybe, just maybe, the course had something to do with it.

Actually, I was going to mention such and that fact it was short, to b fair.

 

[Turner29]

But where else have we seen a rider have a horrible Giro, save for one ITT, then have a very, very good Tour.

Keep in mind that during the Lemond era, EPO's introduction not withstanding, blood doping cannot be ruled out...

 

[BroDeal]

But where else have we seen a rider have a horrible Giro, save for one ITT, then have a very, very good Tour.

Keep in mind that during the Lemond era, EPO's introduction not withstanding, blood doping cannot be ruled out...

Can you not read? I posted LeMond's results for 1989. He had a decent March and April then placed 39th in the Giro.

I also seem to recall him being sick before the Giro.

 

[Benotti69]

It sounds like some lonely bird bought a lot of yellow wrist bands and instead of throwing them away is trying to tarnish others in order to keep wearing them with the idea that everyone doped before Armstrong.

Trolling, please feed do not!

 

[Albatros]

You don't do EPO by taking one injection during the Giro and then flying a month later at the Tour. It doesn't work like that. 1989 is also an extremely early date for EPO - it's just a very far-fetched theory. I could give you any illegal stimulant or whatever, but EPO? No way.

Also, you can't compare average speeds like that. There's a reason why road racing doesn't really have records, except vaguely on well-established climbs. That particular ITT was relatively short, it was downhill and with tailwind. Of course everybody went mighty fast there.

An Injection? Several. By 1986 EPO was alredy used in clinical trials.

Regarding his ITT numbers. According to Channel 4 broadcasting the wind was minimal and the gradient 0.3%, almost flat. Being the last stage of a gruelling Tour where he had to fight all the way against Fignon and considering that he was clean it is unbelieveble that it took so long for the dopers that came after to better his record.

 

[Albatros]

Cadaver, eh?

1989

Het Volk, March 4, 17th

Tirreno Adriatico, March 9-15, 9th in stage 1 ITT, 6th Overall GC

Critérium International, March 25-26, 2nd in Stage 1, 8th in Stage 2, 16th in Stage 3 (ITT), 4th Overall GC

Ronde van Vlaaderen, April 2, 63rd

Tour of America, 3rd Overall GC

Giro d’Italia, May 21 - June 11, 8th in Stage 4, 2nd in Stage 22 (ITT), 39th Overall GC

I am going by what Otto Jacome, his masseur, said. That he was anemic and needed iron injections.

And in spite of his impressive result in the last ITT of the Giro, Lemond finished almost one hour behind Fignon.

I guess those iron shots started to take effect by the end of the Giro.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

An Injection? Several. By 1986 EPO was alredy used in clinical trials.

Regarding his ITT numbers. According to Channel 4 broadcasting the wind was minimal and the gradient 0.3%, almost flat. Being the last stage of a gruelling Tour where he had to fight all the way against Fignon and considering that he was clean it is unbelieveble that it took so long for the dopers that came after to better his record.

I am going by what Otto Jacome, his masseur, said. That he was anemic and needed iron injections.

And in spite of his impressive result in the last ITT of the Giro, Lemond finished almost one hour behind Fignon.

I guess those iron shots started to take effect by the end of the Giro.

You don't have to be a professor too look at those two bold parts and realise you are contradicting yourself.

It would be quite sad if you didn't realised that yourself.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

An Injection? Several. By 1986 EPO was alredy used in clinical trials.

Regarding his ITT numbers. According to Channel 4 broadcasting the wind was minimal and the gradient 0.3%, almost flat. Being the last stage of a gruelling Tour where he had to fight all the way against Fignon and considering that he was clean it is unbelieveble that it took so long for the dopers that came after to better his record.

When you say, "Channel 4 Broadcasting", do you mean a TV channel issued a declaration of the meteorological conditions and gradient of a Tour stage, or do mean the ramblings of Phil & Paul?

Also - hard to beat a record when a TT of similar size (24km) has not been used since except for mountain TTs.

 

[hrotha]

An Injection? Several. By 1986 EPO was alredy used in clinical trials.

Regarding his ITT numbers. According to Channel 4 broadcasting the wind was minimal and the gradient 0.3%, almost flat. Being the last stage of a gruelling Tour where he had to fight all the way against Fignon and considering that he was clean it is unbelieveble that it took so long for the dopers that came after to better his record.

Check the thread about first EPO users in the peloton. 1986 is a fantasy date for cycling.

Again, no such thing as records in cycling, except in climbs, because the courses are never the same. Slight as it was, it was still downhill. Was Thierry Marie on EPO too back then?

 

[Albatros]

Check the thread about first EPO users in the peloton. 1986 is a fantasy date for cycling.

Again, no such thing as records in cycling, except in climbs, because the courses are never the same. Slight as it was, it was still downhill. Was Thierry Marie on EPO too back then?

Why not? Everything is possible in the world of professional sport. What it is true, unless John Treacy is lying is that EPO was already known to athletes at that time.


May 19, 1991
New York Times

"I began hearing about EPO two to three years ago through the grapevine in running circles," said John Treacy, a silver medalist in the 1984 Olympic marathon. "The story was there was this new drug that would take over from blood doping, and that it was much better."

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/u...d-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=3&src=pm