LeMond I

[D-Queued]

I am not talking about the doctor he went to see, but his main man. Do you know who he was? More tomorrow.

By the way, you have been in here one of the most vocal advocates that EPO cyclists prevented GL from winning more tours.

At least you remember that in 1991 he was sick and thus with very little chance of winning the Tour.

It is something that maybe Lemond fans could comment on starting by you.

Oooh. Suspense!

1991 Tour? Bugno, Cappuccino and Big Mig emerge but he still gets five days in yellow and places 7th.

I would like to be that sick.

Dave.

 

[Albatros]

We're clearly at a stage in the thread, much like the USADA thread where there is little new info to be discussed. If you have new information or have valid clarifications of earlier points, please continue. If you're just here to get others' hackles up or call people trolls, please stop now, as the thread is nose-diving due to this kind of thing. The reported posts which allude to trolling are being looked at by the moderation team. However, it does get a bit...interesting...when people who hold one position call the other position trolling and people who hold the opposite...well you get the idea. That said, we are verging into toll-dom in several instances.

While some interesting tidbits have been brought up, as far as I can see there isn't a lot of new information coming to light here–not surprisingly as Lemond's career ended about 20 years ago. Let's keep it on point here. Simply lobbing accusations and then stepping back to watch is the very definition of trolling. If you do have suspicions, please feel free to discuss and engage with the respondents.

Engaged, earnest, spirited discourse is of course welcome, and the point of this site. Thank you.

Me calling people trolls? Sorry, that must be a mistake on your part if you are referring to me. It is the other way around.

And I have raised some valid points questioning the honesty of Lemond in his interviews. I am afraid none here can proof or disprove that Lemond doped by direct means, but showing that he tended to be economical with the truth regarding doping affairs and bringing about the extent and importance of doping for a successful career at his time is a good enough way to question his career.

Tomorrow I will post a couple of links that still need a bit of translating.

 

[MacRoadie]

I am afraid none here can proof or disprove that Lemond doped by direct means, but showing that he tended to be economical with the truth regarding doping affairs and bringing about the extent and importance of doping for a successful career at his time is a good enough way to question his career.

Of course it is, when you have not one scintilla of actual proof...

 

[Albatros]

Oooh. Suspense!

1991 Tour? Bugno, Cappuccino and Big Mig emerge but he still gets five days in yellow and places 7th.

I would like to be that sick.

Dave.

Me too!

But apparently he was and every Lemond fan has forgotten. Curious isn't it?

They also forgot that he wanted to retire from cycling during the 1989 Giro, so it has to be a medical condition that Lemond followers suffer from

 

[MacRoadie]

so it has to be a medical condition that Lemond followers suffer from

This, and right after the warning...

Reported...

 

[Albatros]

Was going to translate them for you but just in case I get banned, I post them without translation.

This coming from Le Soir In both they say that Lemond was a client of Dr Bellocq

http://archives.lesoir.be/patrick-j...que-de-boxe-thai-lours_t-19930607-Z06V9U.html

http://archives.lesoir.be/lietti-au...ort=datedesc&rub=SPOR&rub2=&pos=1&all=2&nav=1

 

[Dr. Maserati]

We're clearly at a stage in the thread, much like the USADA thread where there is little new info to be discussed. If you have new information or have valid clarifications of earlier points, please continue. If you're just here to get others' hackles up or call people trolls, please stop now, as the thread is nose-diving due to this kind of thing. The reported posts which allude to trolling are being looked at by the moderation team. However, it does get a bit...interesting...when people who hold one position call the other position trolling and people who hold the opposite...well you get the idea. That said, we are verging into toll-dom in several instances.

While some interesting tidbits have been brought up, as far as I can see there isn't a lot of new information coming to light here–not surprisingly as Lemond's career ended about 20 years ago. Let's keep it on point here. Simply lobbing accusations and then stepping back to watch is the very definition of trolling. If you do have suspicions, please feel free to discuss and engage with the respondents.

Engaged, earnest, spirited discourse is of course welcome, and the point of this site. Thank you.

Pretty simple really - I requested Albatros to back up what they say and show the quotes, the answer was go back and read the thread.

My opinion, quite simply that is not someone who is interested in a discussion or debate - I don't see why there is a problem then calling it trolling, as that is exactly what it is.

 

[Big Doopie]

Was going to translate them for you but just in case I get banned, I post them without translation.

http://archives.lesoir.be/patrick-j...que-de-boxe-thai-lours_t-19930607-Z06V9U.html

http://archives.lesoir.be/lietti-au...ort=datedesc&rub=SPOR&rub2=&pos=1&all=2&nav=1

absolutely fascinating read. thanks.

confirms how the entire z team was exhausted after the first week on the flats because of the increased general speeds and how they seemed completely incapable -- as a team -- to follow in the first mountains. this was the team that won the team competition only the year before. completely unable to follow in the mountains the very next year.

fascinating. thanks. confirms once again that something pretty radical changed between 1990 and 1991 with at least some of the teams and players. and that z was not part of that "improvement".

Thanks again, Albatros, you are a fantastic resource for enlightening us on what was going on. Please keep it up.

 

[Red Lobster]

Me too!

But apparently he was and every Lemond fan has forgotten. Curious isn't it?

They also forgot that he wanted to retire from cycling during the 1989 Giro, so it has to be a medical condition that Lemond followers suffer from

Maybe I'm just slow today but I'm having a hard time working out exactly what point you are trying to make.

 

[Albatros]

Pretty simple really - I requested Albatros to back up what they say and show the quotes, the answer was go back and read the thread.

My opinion, quite simply that is not someone who is interested in a discussion or debate - I don't see why there is a problem then calling it trolling, as that is exactly what it is.

I am open to all discussions, unlike those who don't stop troll naming. And I am pointing at you...and a few others.

 

[Albatros]

Maybe I'm just slow today but I'm having a hard time working out exactly what point you are trying to make.

The point I am trying to make is clear. Lemond was sick during the 1991 Tour, yet Lemond followers have never mentioning this point when arguing how he was robbed by the EPO riders from 1991.

The Giro incident is another famous one. He said that he wanted to retire after finishing like 17 minutes behind the winner on one stage. And then I read here that he didn't want to compete in that Tour and that is why he finished near 1 hour behind the winner.

 

[Albatros]

absolutely fascinating read. thanks.

confirms how the entire z team was exhausted after the first week on the flats because of the increased general speeds and how they seemed completely incapable -- as a team -- to follow in the first mountains. this was the team that won the team competition only the year before. completely unable to follow in the mountains the very next year.

fascinating. thanks. confirms once again that something pretty radical changed between 1990 and 1991 with at least some of the teams and players. and that z was not part of that "improvement".

Thanks again, Albatros, you are a fantastic resource for enlightening us on what was going on. Please keep it up.

What about le docteur? Maybe he failed to balance Lemond hormones this time?

You surely must know the bloke and his deeds.

And in any case, sick as a parrot and still 7th. What else do you want?

 

[D-Queued]

Was going to translate them for you but just in case I get banned, I post them without translation.

This coming from Le Soir In both they say that Lemond was a client of Dr Bellocq

http://archives.lesoir.be/patrick-j...que-de-boxe-thai-lours_t-19930607-Z06V9U.html

http://archives.lesoir.be/lietti-au...ort=datedesc&rub=SPOR&rub2=&pos=1&all=2&nav=1

Odd that I was chided just an hour or to ago for responding to a very old post on this exact same topic.

But, allow me to pull a trick out of The Hog's book, and quote myself.

Sorry, he was a character in Indiana Jones. And, ... please allow me to quote him:

"Again we see there is nothing you can possess which I cannot take away"

Dave.

As English may not be your mother tongue (not a value statement, just judging by the many grammatical errors), please allow me to translate:

You are wasting our time with this nonsense about sick or not, some doctor or not. You are wasting our time with your fantasy about any doping evidence whatsoever.

There was none, and there still is none. Best we can ever anticipate is that there will never be any. En Espanol, nada.

Maybe the only illness Greg had was that he tried pushing an undoped body to compete with EPO in 1991.

Dave.

 

[Albatros]

Odd that I was chided just an hour or to ago for responding to a very old post on this exact same topic.

But, allow me to pull a trick out of The Hog's book, and quote myself.



As English may not be your mother tongue (not a value statement, just judging by the many grammatical errors), please allow me to translate:

You are wasting our time with this nonsense about sick or not, some doctor or not. You are wasting our time with your fantasy about any doping evidence whatsoever.

There was none, and there still is none. Best we can ever anticipate is that there will never be any. En Espanol, nada.

Maybe the only illness Greg had was that he tried pushing an undoped body to compete with EPO in 1991.

Dave.

Amen. That is how it ends. Well, for Christians it does.

 

[Big Doopie]

Albatros...blah blah blah...

um...wow. man, i am really sorry. didn't get any of that. and i am fluent in french. actually have no idea what you are getting at.

as i said the articles you cited talk a lot about how the entire z team can't keep up -- a team that was only one year removed from winning the team competition.

and that would mean what to you?

call me stupid, but since historical facts have shown that epo started to hit the peloton in a decisive way in 1991 (indurain, chiappucci, bugno -- and their teams), these articles would seem to support the fact that z's drop in performance that year was directly related to that historical fact.

next.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I am open to all discussions, unlike those who don't stop troll naming. And I am pointing at you...and a few others.

As the majority of your posts are fixated on LeMond, I don't think your statement is true.

And when you respond to someone who asks a legitimate question by requesting them to read the thread it certainly seems you have an agenda.

You seem intent on repeating things that have already been posted about - case in point, there was a discussion about Bellocq from 2 years ago.

 

[pmcg76]

I dont think Albatros actually read the articles fully and is once more lacking in context.

Firstly Dr Bellocq was indeed the team doctor of Z/Peugeot and was so long before LeMond joined. The first article that names LeMond and Duclos-Lassalle as his clients is merely naming the biggest stars on the Z team who would have technically fallen under Bellocq's supervision.

It is not like Bellocq was the personal doctor/trainer of LeMond(was Van Diemen if memory serves me correctly) a la Ferrari, Cecchini etc, mapping out training plans, travelling around with them and taking huge payments for training advice. He was a team doctor who would have ony been used at different times throughout the season. That is not to say he would never have carried out any nefarious activities but I think the aim here is to try and give the idea that Bellocq was a sinister doctor in the Ferrari, Fuentes mode which just aint the case.

In the second article, there seems to be doubt as to the extent of LeMond's virus from both Roger Legeay and Bellocq as it states LeMond had his blood tested by people outside the Z team. Now the translation is pretty bad so that might be incorrect but it hardly suggests a close relationship between LeMond and Bellocq if that were the case.

The irony would be that it is likely that LeMond would only have come into contact with Bellocq when he joined Z so that still doesnt explain 86/89 or why LeMond was never the rider he was in 85/86.

 

[Albatros]

As the majority of your posts are fixated on LeMond, I don't think your statement is true.

And when you respond to someone who asks a legitimate question by requesting them to read the thread it certainly seems you have an agenda.

You seem intent on repeating things that have already been posted about - case in point, there was a discussion about Bellocq from 2 years ago.

I am very sorry but I haven't read every thread over here. So if these two links have already been provided excuse me but I did not see them.

In any case they are a good reminder for those Lemond fans that state that there is not link of Lemond to dubious doctors. Well, there is.

And the only reason I am talking about Lemond is because it is more or less accepted by the majority that the rest of TDF winners were doped. Nothing personal against the American, although reading about him trying to find clues I have started to develop a serious dislike for the man bull****. Perhaps in other environments not dope related he is the nicest person you can find. Even you could be too.

 

[Red Lobster]

The point I am trying to make is clear. Lemond was sick during the 1991 Tour, yet Lemond followers have never mentioning this point when arguing how he was robbed by the EPO riders from 1991.

The Giro incident is another famous one. He said that he wanted to retire after finishing like 17 minutes behind the winner on one stage. And then I read here that he didn't want to compete in that Tour and that is why he finished near 1 hour behind the winner.

Sorry, I should have included "[THIS IS RHETORICAL]" after my post.

 

[Albatros]

I dont think Albatros actually read the articles fully and is once more lacking in context.

Firstly Dr Bellocq was indeed the team doctor of Z/Peugeot and was so long before LeMond joined. The first article that names LeMond and Duclos-Lassalle as his clients is merely naming the biggest stars on the Z team who would have technically fallen under Bellocq's supervision.

It is not like Bellocq was the personal doctor/trainer of LeMond(was Van Diemen if memory serves me correctly) a la Ferrari, Cecchini etc, mapping out training plans, travelling around with them and taking huge payments for training advice. He was a team doctor who would have ony been used at different times throughout the season. That is not to say he would never have carried out any nefarious activities but I think the aim here is to try and give the idea that Bellocq was a sinister doctor in the Ferrari, Fuentes mode which just aint the case.

In the second article, there seems to be doubt as to the extent of LeMond's virus from both Roger Legeay and Bellocq as it states LeMond had his blood tested by people outside the Z team. Now the translation is pretty bad so that might be incorrect but it hardly suggests a close relationship between LeMond and Bellocq if that were the case.

The irony would be that it is likely that LeMond would only have come into contact with Bellocq when he joined Z so that still doesnt explain 86/89 or why LeMond was never the rider he was in 85/86.

I might lack in context but the articles state that Lemond was a client of Bellocq in one, and that Lemond doctor was Bellocq in the other.

How easily we jump on some cyclists back when their team doctor is a dubious one and how in this case it is not applicable.

 

[Big Doopie]

I might lack in context but the articles state that Lemond was a client of Bellocq in one, and that Lemond doctor was Bellocq in the other.

How easily we jump on some cyclists back when their team doctor is a dubious one and how in this case it is not applicable.

all your arguments are based on a faulty knowledge of historical facts. actually this whole "team doctor" thing really starts with the epo era. lemond has declared that he didn't have a specific "doctor" following him throughout his career. if he was sick, he went to see his family doctor. but he didn't have a "doctor" following him as he raced. he didn't even have a personal cycling coach/trainer either. it was only in the early 90s that he briefly got in contact with a dutch trainer to see if there was anything he could do to be competitive again -- anything in his training...but there was nothing he could do against epo.

we are so used to teams and individual riders having all these freakin' doctors around them since epo and blood doping (and testing) came around that we jump to the conclusion that riders had that throughout the history of cycling. simply not true. this is yet another false assumption we make after the last 20 + years, when the actual "need" for any type of doctor -- other than to give an aspirin if you had a headache -- should actually draw suspicion. the only real reason for having a team of doctors following a team is to have a team-wide doping program.

lemond didn't have a personal "sports" (read "blood") doctor. that is why everyone knew that going to see ferrari meant one thing, and one thing only.

(Note: I think it took lemond several years to realize exactly how much epo could alter performance. in 1991, having come into the tour in fantastic shape -- demonstrated by his first week, he assumed that when he fell off the pace it must be because he was sick. The Mens Journal article is one of many that describes this period of revelation that ended with the ex-teammate in 1993 telling z exactly what the italian teams were doing. and the final crushing blow was being dropped by the pack in 1994 on the flats. this slow understanding is completely consistent with a culture that was probably pretty secretive at first (to hold onto the advantage) and a supremely gifted athlete -- with a VO2max he knew to be off the charts -- assuming that his natural gifts could overcome any challenge, because they had before)

 

[ultimobici]

I might lack in context but the articles state that Lemond was a client of Bellocq in one, and that Lemond doctor was Bellocq in the other.

How easily we jump on some cyclists back when their team doctor is a dubious one and how in this case it is not applicable.

The first article, reporting the passing of Bellocq, merely name checks the two biggest stars of the Z Team which he had worked for. The second article states that LeMond used an outside doctor to get tests done, suggesting that he was applying the same logic as he had in 1986, that is don't trust the team medics. If anything, your two quotes suggest he stayed well clear of Bellocq.

 

[Big Doopie]

If anything, your two quotes suggest he stayed well clear of Bellocq.

+1.

the smell of desperation is palpable. coming right over the internetz.

 

[pmcg76]

I might lack in context but the articles state that Lemond was a client of Bellocq in one, and that Lemond doctor was Bellocq in the other.

How easily we jump on some cyclists back when their team doctor is a dubious one and how in this case it is not applicable.

Which other team doctors are we referring to exactly?

As I pointed out Bellocq was the team doctor of Z/Peugeot so technically the entire team were his clients. Secondly, as I pointed out once more, LeMond already had 2 Tour wins before Bellocq so technically his performances declined if he were indeed working with Bellocq directly.

There is a slight difference between LeMond being a top rider before coming into contact with Bellocq and for example what has happened at SKY where they changed their doctors and are now going crazy.

 

[7_7_7_7]

Was going to translate them for you but just in case I get banned, I post them without translation.

This coming from Le Soir In both they say that Lemond was a client of Dr Bellocq

http://archives.lesoir.be/patrick-j...que-de-boxe-thai-lours_t-19930607-Z06V9U.html

http://archives.lesoir.be/lietti-au...ort=datedesc&rub=SPOR&rub2=&pos=1&all=2&nav=1

Try as You may to uncover 'evidence' that Greg Lemond used performance enhancing drugs during his illustrious career. But that is a futile exercise. There is no evidence. There will never be any evidence. None exists because Lemond never once used illicit substances in order to aid recovery, or to enhance his athletic performance. Those are the facts. Anything else amounts to nothing other than fallacious reasoning.