LeMond I

[Albatros]

You have not linked Lemond to Bellocq. You have misinterpreted a quote as ultimobici was kind enough to explain and to which you naturally do not respond in any way, shape or form. How typical!

Furthermore is quite clear that you believe each and every cyclist to be a liar and a doper. That's you prerogative but do not start mixing up believe with facts and proof (of which you have provided non in the case of Lemond).

BTW, why are you still interested in cycling if you have clearly been so disappointed by cyclists and cycling in general? You must be masochistic to high level to keep watching cycling and posting in cycling fora.

Regards
GJ

FFS, it was his team doctor! He raced under the supervision of a doper.

If he was so antidoping as he states he surely would have never joined the Z team.

 

[Albatros]

ask who exactly? Where are these riders that are available to discuss this?



Of course you are. you are on on CN to trll LeMond. I have yet to see you post a thead or post about Ocana! You are the most obvious troll in here at present time.

You were too fast. I meant posters. it is corrected now.

And I am not posting about Ocana, or anywhere near the other cycling threads because doping is what interests me out of cycling these days. But you are trapped in your Lemond is better and cleaner than Armstrong fight, which does not interest me a little bit.

 

[Benotti69]

You were too fast. I meant posters. it is corrected now.

And I am not posting about Ocana, or anywhere near the other cycling threads because doping is what interests me out of cycling these days. But you are trapped in your Lemond is better and cleaner than Armstrong fight, which does not interest me a little bit.

You are trolling as has been pointed out by many posters.

You have nothing on LeMond and yet are allowed to continue with posting BS.

Your claims to be interested in doping are BS as you rarely stray from this thread.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

My links have curiously stopped working,
but ask other posterss who had the oportunity to look at them can tell tyou that a virus infection is mentioned during the 1991 Tour.

I ma not inventing it.

On the realationship of Lemond and Van Mol it is your sole interpretation.

MY question would be, did Lemond knew, that Van Mol was a doper when he consulted him. Is it likely or not? What do you think?

On the other hand, one can safely deduct that when Lemond signed for Z he knew that his doctor was going to be a doper, which seriously clashes with the notion of Lemond fighting doping causes, at least at the time.

Bellocq was known as a doper since the 70's. Not that I was easy to find a clean doctor, but just saying.

If I am correct, van Mol was teamdoctor at the ADR team when LeMond won the Tour of 1989. So, there is the connection between those two. Would it be a surprise if he wanted a second opinion from someone he knew, and obviously trusted at that time?

 

[Albatros]

If I am correct, van Mol was teamdoctor at the ADR team when LeMond won the Tour of 1989. So, there is the connection between those two. Would it be a surprise if he wanted a second opinion from someone he knew, and obviously trusted at that time?

Not at all. But would it be surprising that Lemond was trying to get doping help from this doctor when we know he doped his cyclists?

What we do know is that Lemond had a professional relationship with doctors involved in doping and in the case of the Z team everyone knew who was doctor Bellocq.

So, he either ignored the advice from those doctors or he doped like the rest.

What I am trying to get at is at the affirmation that everywhere, everyone he worked with was clean.

And isn't it curious that he leaves PDM beacuse of doping issues and he has never mentioned his Z team?

Also, isn't it curious that after Lemond left PDM he said that the isssue was contractual which later on changed to doping? This is a constant that keeps repeating throughout his life.

 

[Benotti69]

This is a constant that keeps repeating throughout his life.

There is only one constant in here, your desperation.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Not at all. But would it be surprising that Lemond was trying to get doping help from this doctor when we know he doped his cyclists?

I have tried to stay polite but now you are just cranking it up. Advise/medical is the same as getting dope?

Okay, enough of this stuff.

You are convinced LeMond doped because Didi did, Ocana did, Merkx did, etc etc, I am not. And certainly not with these vague accusations. I give u info and you interpret it in the way you want it.

And isn't it curious that he leaves PDM beacuse of doping issues and he has never mentioned his Z team?

Perhaps they were clean at Z? U never now. What is amazing is how the Z team were quite good in the 1990 Tour - won the team award - but in 1991 they were 'bad' - losing more than an hour to the Banesto boys -. Nowadays we call that marginal gains.

And, those are facts.

 

[Albatros]

Your links don't work.

Tuesday, 23th July 1991
......

It all started on Sunday night. Greg LeMond finished the day in a state of extreme mental tiredness , with a long face and very few words...

Meanwhile, his entourage was involved in performing blood tests with the American. These have revealed an abnormally high number of white blood cells, a sign of the presence of a virus in the body of the triple Tour winner ......

Tout a commencé dimanche soir. Greg LeMond a achevé la journée dans un état de lassitude morale extrême, la mine allongée et le verbe rare. Il a aussi et surtout laissé ses équipiers à leur hôtel, se cherchant à tout prix une chambre climatisée. Pendant ce temps, son entourage faisait état d'examens sanguins, subis récemment par l'Américain, ceux-ci ayant révélé un taux anormalement élevé de globules blancs, signes de la présence d'un virus dans l'organisme du triple vainqueur du Tour.


http://archives.lesoir.be/lietti-au...y=02&sort=datedesc&rub=TOUT&pos=1&all=2&nav=1

 

[pmcg76]

I have stated many times over here that my motto when interpreting people from cycling remarks over here is as follows:

1. Fully believe everything bad the cyclists say about themselves, always taking into account that it could be even worse than what they are saying.

2. Take with a pinch of salt remarks that do no fit into my view of cycling as being rotten to the core.

It is true that Millar says that Bellocq never gave him anything forbidden(?)

First of all, that does not mean that he is telling the truth.

Doctor Bellocq was an advocate of hormone rebalancing, which it is plain and simple an eufemism for doping.

You have ignored that fact which is far more serious than that remark of Millar. After all, it is not the case that MOST cyclists go about confessing their sins. Is it?

My intention was to link Lemond to a doctor linked to doping, which I have done not only once, but twice, with Dr Van Mol included.

Then it is up to the reader to deduce or conclude what kind of involvement Lemond had with those doctors.

By the way, I would like to know how hormone balancing is done without incurring in doping. If the anwser is not, why Millar contacted this doctor to take care of him if he was precisely famous for that kind of treatment.

Anyone can believe what they please. I know what I believe.

Just to put your connecting LeMond with Bellocq into some sort of context.

Do who you know what doctor Christophe Bassons was linked with? Dr Eric Ryckaert of the infamous Festina affair. See the problem with that line of reasoning.

As to why LeMond would move to a team with a dodgy doctor. Well back in the 80s doctors didnt have the same power or status within teams. They did not work full-time with teams as they do now so who a team had as doctor was of little consequence to riders when signing a contract.

The only team that had a clean reputation in the 80s/90s was Helvetia-La Suisse and there is no doubting that LeMond would have signed up with his old mentor Koechli if he had had the budget but there was no way Paul Koechli had the budget. LeMond went to the team who offered the most money Z/Peugeot, it was a record transfer/wage package at the time.

Your whole argument is about trying to link LeMond with doctors the same way Armstrong was linked to Ferrari or Indurain to Conconi. It would seem that LeMond had minimal contact with Van Mol or Bellocq and would likely have had zero contact if it hadnt been for the fact they were the doctors at the teams he rode for.

As has already been pointed out, it seemed that LeMond went to people outside his team for his blood tests in 1991 so that hardly suggests a close relationship with Bellocq but keep believing.

 

[blutto]

Just to put your connecting LeMond with Bellocq into some sort of context.

Do who you know what doctor Christophe Bassons was linked with? Dr Eric Ryckaert of the infamous Festina affair. See the problem with that line of reasoning.

As to why LeMond would move to a team with a dodgy doctor. Well back in the 80s doctors didnt have the same power or status within teams. They did not work full-time with teams as they do now so who a team had as doctor was of little consequence to riders when signing a contract.

The only team that had a clean reputation in the 80s/90s was Helvetia-La Suisse and there is no doubting that LeMond would have signed up with his old mentor Koechli if he had had the budget but there was no way Paul Koechli had the budget. LeMond went to the team who offered the most money Z/Peugeot, it was a record transfer/wage package at the time.

Your whole argument is about trying to link LeMond with doctors the same way Armstrong was linked to Ferrari or Indurain to Conconi. It would seem that LeMond had minimal contact with Van Mol or Bellocq and would likely have had zero contact if it hadnt been for the fact they were the doctors at the teams he rode for.

As has already been pointed out, it seemed that LeMond went to people outside his team for his blood tests in 1991 so that hardly suggests a close relationship with Bellocq but keep believing.

...well he first went to PDM which was a known cess-pool of drug taking...why, because the money was good and damn your reputation?( which well after the fact seems to be so all important )...

Cheers

blutto

 

[ultimobici]

...well he first went to PDM which was a known cess-pool of drug taking...why, because the money was good and damn your reputation?( which well after the fact seems to be so all important )...

Cheers

blutto

Bearing in mind he signed for PDM in late 87 and they only came into the sport in 1986, I think youre making a Marty McFly jump to that conclusion. All of the nefarious goings on that one can base that conclusion on happened several years afterwards.

 

[BotanyBay]

...well he first went to PDM which was a known cess-pool of drug taking...why, because the money was good and damn your reputation?( which well after the fact seems to be so all important )...

Cheers

blutto

PDM was a cesspool of drugs, but it wasn't common knowledge in the peloton, and it wasn't like that from day-1. Riders only discovered this after getting there. That's how the dirty teams evolved. First a little dark secret between 2 people, then a few more, and then some more. That later evolved into ousting those who wouldn't get on board and recruiting those who would. And that evolved into fundamentally dirty teams, leading to fundamentally dirty teams trying to outdo other fundamentally dirty teams. All of this before the Festina affair. Then the fundamentally dirty orgs started to get really good at it. Riders unable to hook-up with a good dirty team had to go freelance, and that's what led to the Puerto ring (and others like it).

 

[Race Radio]

...well he first went to PDM which was a known cess-pool of drug taking...why, because the money was good and damn your reputation?( which well after the fact seems to be so all important )...

Cheers

blutto

You are confused.

LeMond left PDM when they tried to force him to dope. PDM then stepped up the program by hiring Wim Sanders for the 1990 season. It was after the joining of Wim that the toxic legacy of PDM developed

 

[blutto]

You are confused.

LeMond left PDM when they tried to force him to dope. PDM then stepped up the program by hiring Wim Sanders for the 1990 season. It was after the joining of Wim that the toxic legacy of PDM developed

...that is the story according to GL....the other possibility is that he left because PDM wasn't paying because of non-performance and that the GL sourced/fabricated story was a smoke screen to save his rep...

Cheers

blutto

 

[red_flanders]

...that is the story according to GL....the other possibility is that he left because PDM wasn't paying because of non-performance and that the GL sourced/fabricated story was a smoke screen to save his rep...

Cheers

blutto

Do you have any reason to believe this is the case? Any facts or evidence to dispute others' timelines on this?

Anything is possible. What's possible isn't relevant. What is factual or even likely due to evidence would be.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

...that is the story according to GL....the other possibility is that he left because PDM wasn't paying because of non-performance and that the GL sourced/fabricated story was a smoke screen to save his rep...

Cheers

blutto

Email Jan Gisbers and just ask what the deal is so you can sleep at night.

cheerio

 

[Big Doopie]

Email Jan Gisbers and just ask what the deal is so you can sleep at night.

cheerio

thanks.

 

[blutto]

Email Jan Gisbers and just ask what the deal is so you can sleep at night.

cheerio

...naw I sleep like a baby....maybe youse guys should make the call because that smoke screen story is more than a wee bit thin...

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

You are confused.

LeMond left PDM when they tried to force him to dope. PDM then stepped up the program by hiring Wim Sanders for the 1990 season. It was after the joining of Wim that the toxic legacy of PDM developed

...yeah I am confused...the thrust of your post is that PDM did not become a cesspool of drugs until 1990 when they brought on Wim Saunders....and thus, I assume, you are saying I was wrong with my contention....

...but in the same post you accuse this suposedly pre-cesspool organization with trying to force a rider to dope....and lets not even bring in the suspicions that this supposed pre-cesspool organization as being so underhanded as to slip drugs into a riders drink to make him positive...because that is just too silly for words....

...gee it sounds to me that organization was capable of just about anything...so the question remains...why did GL sign up with this crew of nefarious clowns ( and its not like they suddenly appear on the scene...and why did GL's super duper smarts suddenly desert him when he teamed up with them...the money must have been real good?...and nothing else about this crew mattered?...like nothing else! )

Cheers

blutto

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

...naw I sleep like a baby....maybe youse guys should make the call because that smoke screen story is more than a wee bit thin...

Cheers

blutto

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2698...nderbaarlijke-jaren-van-wielerploeg-PDM.dhtml

Hope google translate will work...

'Ik heb Greg LeMond wel eens uit het rennershotel rechtstreeks naar een supermarkt zien fietsen. Hij gooit zijn bidon leeg en giet er een fles mineraalwater in.'

Coureur X zoekt en vindt een ploeg die zijn gezondheid wel in acht neemt.

translated:

I have seen Greg LeMond riding straight out of the hotel to a supermarket, emptying his water bottle and filling it up with mineral water.

Rider X searches and finds a team wich di take notice of his health.

Guess X meant Helvetia - Suisse, it's not very hard to find out who X is then.

Edit: another source claiming LeMond left PDM for their roids
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...dm-riders-frenchman-laurent-fignon-ron-stanko

'A PDR spokesman has responded to Stanko`s suggestions with the vague threat of a lawsuit, but there has been no outright denial.'

Never heard of any PDM lawsuit at the adress of LeMond or his attorney for this false accusation. Anyone? PDM, aka Philips. Get the drift?

And:
``PDM has a very scientific method of training athletes,`` the attorney said. ``They believe that if any athlete`s body produces a substance naturally but at a slow rate, to replace that substance faster is totally natural-like giving oxygen to someone who is short of breath.

``It seems logical, but the substances involved were seen as performance- enhancing, and their use was banned.``

That sounds like Bellocq's hormonal treatment, he, also that was no option for LeMond is it seems.

Next try Blutto.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...yeah I am confused...the thrust of your post is that PDM did not become a cesspool of drugs until 1990 when they brought on Wim Saunders....and thus, I assume, you are saying I was wrong with my contention....

...but in the same post you accuse this suposedly pre-cesspool organization with trying to force a rider to dope....and lets not even bring in the suspicions that this supposed pre-cesspool organization as being so underhanded as to slip drugs into a riders drink to make him positive...because that is just too silly for words....

...gee it sounds to me that organization was capable of just about anything...so the question remains...why did GL sign up with this crew of nefarious clowns ( and its not like they suddenly appear on the scene...and why did GL's super duper smarts suddenly desert him when he teamed up with them...the money must have been real good?...and nothing else about this crew mattered?...like nothing else! )

Cheers

blutto

If you cannot read RRs post correctly, then yes you will remain confused.
I have highlighted the relevant section - just for you. Your welcome.

You are confused.

LeMond left PDM when they tried to force him to dope. PDM then stepped up the program by hiring Wim Sanders for the 1990 season. It was after the joining of Wim that the toxic legacy of PDM developed

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

If you cannot read RRs post correctly, then yes you will remain confused.
I have highlighted the relevant section - just for you. Your welcome.

Blutto was right about that part, dunno they already had that name in 1986 when LeMond signed for them but certainly after 1988's idiotic Tour one had to raise a bit of suspicion imho.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/dec97/dec1.html

Team doctor Peter Janssen now lives in Thailand, maybe ianfra has some additonal info on him

 

[ultimobici]

Blutto was right about that part, dunno they already had that name in 1986 when LeMond signed for them but certainly after 1988's idiotic Tour one had to raise a bit of suspicion imho.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/dec97/dec1.html

Team doctor Peter Janssen now lives in Thailand, maybe ianfra has some additonal info on him

You have your dates wrong by 12 months in both directions.

LeMond was contracted to La Vie Claire from 1985 to 1987, then PDM in 1988. The reputation was born after the idiocy of the 88 Tour and was likely after he'd pulled the plug. Anyway, judging by his response to this question about Armstrong's recovery compared to his, he was in no position to resist either Toshiba or PDM in his contractual duty to ride. No ride, no job, no pay.

http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/lemond98.html

Bicyclist: Speaking of competitive racers, when you heard about Lance Armstrong's brush with cancer and, more recently, his attempt to come back, did you empathize with him because of the parallels to your own life-threatening experience?

LeMond: Yes. It's tragic, especially for someone in the prime of their career. It's what happened to me and my career. I did write him a letter immediately when I found out, but he's a fairly private guy, so we haven't talked at length about it. Plus there's the fact that he was so often compared to me at the beginning of his career that I think he may have resented that. Living in a country that has produced only a few good riders, anybody that achieves any success becomes 'the next LeMond.' It must get tiring after a while. In a country like Italy such comparisons would never happen. The hard part for Lance now is the actual comeback. I really don't how he's taking it. I've read that he might retire, and then later that he'll continue on.

Bicyclist: He has a wife now and the prospect of being with her seemed to draw him back home last spring from the miserable weather of the Paris-Nice.

LeMond: The lifestyle, racing in the cold rain and living from day to day between motel rooms can be brutal-it's the toughest sport in the world. Lance went through chemo, then he had a year off where he realized how nice life is in America. I'm telling you, life is good here. I unwisely rushed right back into racing six months later. I was shot in April and I was back in September. I really should have had more of a program like Lance. He was advised properly by medical doctors. My haematocrit [percentage of packed red blood to the volume of whole blood] went down to about 19. Nearly sixty percent of my blood volume was gone and that takes months to get back. I remember going back to Europe at the end of August and only being able to make it one mile into a race. I was doing it because my contract with PDM was contingent that I would start racing again in '88. Plus my contract with La Vie Claire required that I race X number of days in '87; if I hadn't raced again that year they would have been able to cancel my contract. So I was forced to go back.

Bicyclist: In that sense, you feel Lance was able to spend more time recovering?

LeMond: I don't mean that I wasn't given a chance to recover so much as I never really got to sit back and enjoy life during my few months away. In Lance's case, it's pretty hard to spend a year in Austin and then have to go back to the harsh reality of racing. After getting out of the hospital, I'm guessing that for the first time in probably about five years, he actually enjoyed his life. Had I had that much time to think about whether to go back and race again, you never knowThe two years I had coming back from '87 'til I won the Tour de France in '89, there wasn't a single day that the thought didn't go through my mind that maybe I should stop this sport. I was humiliated. On the other hand, Lance has already come back to a very high level. In February he raced Ruta del Sol, and I'll tell you, it's a hard race, and he still pulled off a 15th place overall. At this point, he might only lack recovery. I feel that he has to give himself a full year of racing before he can expect any consistency. It's the hardest sport to come back in. You can't compare it with golf, basketball, or football. When you have something as minor as a cold in cycling, you're off the back.

 

[9000ft]

Innuendo, gossip, guilt by association, stretched logic, etc all seem to be perfectly acceptable to the clinic regulars when assuming doping by just about any pro rider (especially the dark one, Lord Armstrong) or "fatty" master (I guess only Masters who don't fit the clinic body fat index are suspect) but none of this is acceptable to levy against St Greg?

 

[ultimobici]

Innuendo, gossip, guilt by association, stretched logic, etc all seem to be perfectly acceptable to the clinic regulars when assuming doping by just about any pro rider (especially the dark one, Lord Armstrong) but none of this is acceptable to levy St Greg?

Not at all. It is just that when you look at all the facts together it just doesn't hold water.

It is a given that a professional cyclist will encounter doping whether it be in their opposition or their own team. However it is entirely possible to be in that environment yet not take part. Cofidis has an appalling track record in terms of doping scandals yet David Moncoutié, who has ridden his entire pro career with them, is not considered to be tarred with the same brush that is used on Wiggins for his short association with them.

LeMond's reputation would be far less clean cut if he had not spoken out as much as he has in recent years. He has painted a massive target on his own back, inviting anyone to expose him as a hypocrite, yet no one has even tried.

So it isn't that he is untouchable, far from it, just that the evidence of wrongdoing is simply not there. There's plenty of innuendo, but I bet that one could find a dodgy relationship or two with anyone, you and me included.