LeMond I

[Albatros]

You are confused.

LeMond left PDM when they tried to force him to dope. PDM then stepped up the program by hiring Wim Sanders for the 1990 season. It was after the joining of Wim that the toxic legacy of PDM developed

You are the confused one. Lemond left PDM over a contract disagrement, or that is what he said at the time. Then, later on (as usual) his entourage talked about doping practices, and finally it was Lemond saying so too.

Another fantastic opportunity he missed to raise the clean flag. I leave PDM cause they are drug cheats, and I do it in the middle of the season.

Then he joins two teams whose doctors have been seriously involved in doping and never said a word about them.

 

[Albatros]

Just to put your connecting LeMond with Bellocq into some sort of context.

Do who you know what doctor Christophe Bassons was linked with? Dr Eric Ryckaert of the infamous Festina affair. See the problem with that line of reasoning.

As to why LeMond would move to a team with a dodgy doctor. Well back in the 80s doctors didnt have the same power or status within teams. They did not work full-time with teams as they do now so who a team had as doctor was of little consequence to riders when signing a contract.

The only team that had a clean reputation in the 80s/90s was Helvetia-La Suisse and there is no doubting that LeMond would have signed up with his old mentor Koechli if he had had the budget but there was no way Paul Koechli had the budget. LeMond went to the team who offered the most money Z/Peugeot, it was a record transfer/wage package at the time.

Your whole argument is about trying to link LeMond with doctors the same way Armstrong was linked to Ferrari or Indurain to Conconi. It would seem that LeMond had minimal contact with Van Mol or Bellocq and would likely have had zero contact if it hadnt been for the fact they were the doctors at the teams he rode for.

As has already been pointed out, it seemed that LeMond went to people outside his team for his blood tests in 1991 so that hardly suggests a close relationship with Bellocq but keep believing.

He went to teams with doping doctors. That is a fact, when he was such a strong advocate of clean riding. How do you explain that?

Didn't he leave PDM because they were drugs cheats? Didn't he know that Bellocq was an advocate of hormone rebalancing? (doping)

How curious it is that doping only exists around him during certains part of his career to suddenly dissapear when he wins. That has been his modus operandi. Give any excuse when he loses and not mention a single complain about doping when he wins, as if doping goes on and off within the peloton.

Do you know what he said after the Luxembug ITT?
I tell you know.

"How curious that two Banesto riders were first and second", just after completing the ITT. Then half an hour later he said "Indurain is a great champion and blah, blah, blah."

Even his strange desease was probably an invention to excuse him for the fact that he was no longer the capo in the peloton.

Only a few months after his announcement of mitochondrial myopathy desease, experts on the field were questioning that was the cause as he would not be able to complete a single TdF stage if he suffered from that, even though the diagnostic was made by one of the biggest authorities on the field...according to Lemond.

Now the latest is that he overtrained trying to stay with the EPO dopers. Maybe Fignon, Mottet and Hampsten suffered from it too. Even Delgado

 

[Caruut]

Now the latest is that he overtrained trying to stay with the EPO dopers. Maybe Fignon, Mottet and Hampsten suffered from it too. Even Delgado

You're funny. Read Fignon. He also thought he was ill when the EPO started to hit the peloton.

 

[Race Radio]

You are the confused one. Lemond left PDM over a contract disagrement, or that is what he said at the time. Then, later on (as usual) his entourage talked about doping practices, and finally it was Lemond saying so too.

Another fantastic opportunity he missed to raise the clean flag. I leave PDM cause they are drug cheats, and I do it in the middle of the season.

Then he joins two teams whose doctors have been seriously involved in doping and never said a word about them.

You are starting to get ridiculous with this stuff.

Most would think that telling the Los Angeles times that he left PDM because they tried to force him to use testosterone is a pretty big deal. Not enough for some.

Have you found any witnesses yet? Positives? Drugs dumped in the garbage? The desperation is obvious.

 

[Race Radio]

Innuendo, gossip, guilt by association, stretched logic, etc all seem to be perfectly acceptable to the clinic regulars when assuming doping by just about any pro rider (especially the dark one, Lord Armstrong) or "fatty" master (I guess only Masters who don't fit the clinic body fat index are suspect) but none of this is acceptable to levy against St Greg?

It would be nice to see some real evidence, like

over a dozen direct witnesses
Multiple positives
Questionable blood values
Drugs and Syringes dumped by team staff
Admissions

Evidence like this would be interesting. Over 1,000 posts and still nothing remotely close

 

[the big ring]

You are starting to get ridiculous with this stuff.

Most would think that telling the Los Angeles times that he left PDM because they tried to force him to use testosterone is a pretty big deal. Not enough for some.

Have you found any witnesses yet? Positives? Drugs dumped in the garbage? The desperation is obvious.

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Although LeMond's break with PDM, the sport's dominant team, was primarily the result of a financial dispute, Ron Stanko of Reading, Pa., said the cyclist was believed to be out of the contract before this year because of his philosophical differences with the team's officials regarding banned substances.

He said LeMond was particularly bothered by the team's insistence that he use testosterone, a naturally produced male hormone that some cyclists believe will replenish their strength when injected into their systems. Cyclists are penalized if an excessive amount of testosterone is discovered in their urine samples during drug tests.

 

[Big Doopie]

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

tx for this.

i particularly liked this part:

"I had discussions with them myself, in which I explained to them that we were not interested in using chemicals to improve performances. That is Greg's position, 100%."

LeMond, who was in the Normandy town of Lisieux Monday, could not be reached for comment.

But Stanko said LeMond worried that PDM officials would not take no for an answer, believing they might try to put an anabolic steroid into his drink. Steroids are synthetic derivatives of testosterone that can be injected or swallowed.

"He never knew from one day to the next whether they would slip him something," Stanko said.

Harry Jansen, a PDM spokesman, denied Stanko's charges.

"He should watch what he says," Jansen said by telephone from the Netherlands. "He might have a judicial problem."

this completely puts the lie to those who said he was unwilling to say anything before 2001 and armstrong.

we also see how omerta was already on his back as he was already being threatened legally if he didn't shut up.

the more this gets discussed the more i see lemond as a tragic hero (or perhaps a "cassandra" of sorts).

the benefit of being born perhaps more naturally talented than any cyclist in history gave him the strength to say no to drugs. but ultimately it was also his greatest weakness, because it delayed his understanding of the true power of new drugs like epo and also kept him out of the doping grapevine.

 

[blutto]

...does anyone have any idea how much of the original contract with PDM did GL go home with....and was that spat that included the Stanko statement primarily an attempt to break a contract or did also include trying to collect on monies owed?....

Cheers

blutto

 

[pmcg76]

He went to teams with doping doctors. That is a fact, when he was such a strong advocate of clean riding. How do you explain that?

Didn't he leave PDM because they were drugs cheats? Didn't he know that Bellocq was an advocate of hormone rebalancing? (doping)

How curious it is that doping only exists around him during certains part of his career to suddenly dissapear when he wins. That has been his modus operandi. Give any excuse when he loses and not mention a single complain about doping when he wins, as if doping goes on and off within the peloton.

Do you know what he said after the Luxembug ITT?
I tell you know.

"How curious that two Banesto riders were first and second", just after completing the ITT. Then half an hour later he said "Indurain is a great champion and blah, blah, blah."

Even his strange desease was probably an invention to excuse him for the fact that he was no longer the capo in the peloton.

Only a few months after his announcement of mitochondrial myopathy desease, experts on the field were questioning that was the cause as he would not be able to complete a single TdF stage if he suffered from that, even though the diagnostic was made by one of the biggest authorities on the field...according to Lemond.

Now the latest is that he overtrained trying to stay with the EPO dopers. Maybe Fignon, Mottet and Hampsten suffered from it too. Even Delgado

You keep interchanging present knowledge with past occurences. When LeMond moved to ADR, was it publically known that Van Mol was a doping doctor or had a tarnished reputation? No.

Van Mol had his reputation tarnished thanks to these allegations:

http://cyclingheroes.tripod.com/cyclingheroes.english2/id717.html

Look at the dates involved, long after LeMond retired. Whilst we can now look back and say Van Mol was a doping doctor, that wasnt exactly public knowledge in 89 so how could LeMond sign for a team with a dodgy doctor if it wasnt actually known back then.

Nobody seems to know the exact status of Bellocqs relationship with LeMond but all we do know is that LeMond faded whilst at Z so if Bellocq was doping LeMond, he was doing something incredibly wrong.

 

[aphronesis]

tx for this.

i particularly liked this part:



this completely puts the lie to those who said he was unwilling to say anything before 2001 and armstrong.

we also see how omerta was already on his back as he was already being threatened legally if he didn't shut up.

the more this gets discussed the more i see lemond as a tragic hero (or perhaps a "cassandra" of sorts).

the benefit of being born perhaps more naturally talented than any cyclist in history gave him the strength to say no to drugs. but ultimately it was also his greatest weakness, because it delayed his understanding of the true power of new drugs like epo and also kept him out of the doping grapevine.

Exactly. Which might pose the question that this and subsequent issues get filed under the heading of biopolitics.

On direct topic, that relates both to Greg's aptitude and the subsequent status of his legacy.

 

[Race Radio]

Someone needs to ask Vincent Barteau and Johan Lammerts about the visit they received from Bill and Johan.

 

[Albatros]

You are starting to get ridiculous with this stuff.

Most would think that telling the Los Angeles times that he left PDM because they tried to force him to use testosterone is a pretty big deal. Not enough for some.

Have you found any witnesses yet? Positives? Drugs dumped in the garbage? The desperation is obvious.

He told the Los Angeles months later after he left PDM. And we know Theunisse had tested positive. And we also know that Lemond had adduced breach of contract as THE reason for leaving PDM.

The posterior explanation can be taken as a retaliation by Lemond for being dumped in the first place, cause he was dumped anbd his ego could not take it.

Had he said drugs was the reason the moment he left PDM he would have gained far more credibility in my eyes.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Had he said drugs was the reason the moment he left PDM he would have gained far more credibility in my eyes.

Just a question. Why wasn't LeMond sued by PDM for his obvious lies?

 

[Albatros]

You keep interchanging present knowledge with past occurences. When LeMond moved to ADR, was it publically known that Van Mol was a doping doctor or had a tarnished reputation? No.

Van Mol had his reputation tarnished thanks to these allegations:

http://cyclingheroes.tripod.com/cyclingheroes.english2/id717.html

Look at the dates involved, long after LeMond retired. Whilst we can now look back and say Van Mol was a doping doctor, that wasnt exactly public knowledge in 89 so how could LeMond sign for a team with a dodgy doctor if it wasnt actually known back then.

Nobody seems to know the exact status of Bellocqs relationship with LeMond but all we do know is that LeMond faded whilst at Z so if Bellocq was doping LeMond, he was doing something incredibly wrong.

I know very well the sequence of events. What I find really unbelieveble is that Dr Van Mol started his doping practices in 1993 and not before and that Lemond was never aware of his doping practices at any time during their careers before he retired. Extremely unlikely.

But anyway, lets forget Van Mol and concentrate on Bellocq, a doping doctor that everyone knew in the peloton. Why did Lemond join the Z team with Bellocq as a team doctor? He had been doping everyone, from Thevenet to Hinault, Pascal Simon, Millar....

Please, let's call a spade a spade. If you were a client of this doctor you were a doper cause that is what he did, inject into the cyclist body cortisone, testosterone and God knows what else.

So do you really believe that Lemond joined Z without knowing the history of Dr Bellocq? Do you believe that while Lemond was there this doctor stopped his practices? Again, I find it extremely hard to believe, when only one year earlier Dr bellocq had defended Delgado regarding his positive for Probenicid.

This guy not only doped the top cyclists, but also was ready to give a helping hand when they had been caught doping. No wonder he was so popular among them.

And finally, no matter what you take if your form is bad you are not going to win being on EPO, steroids or whatever.

Do you think Delgado did not dope during the 1991 Tour, that only Indurain was on the class A treatment? Well check his performance in that Tour de France. Far worse comparatively to Lemond.

And what about Indurain in 1996? His debacle was even bigger than Lemond's in 1991.

And lets not forget that Lemond had contracted a virus during the 1991 Tour if we believe the words of his entourage.

 

[Albatros]

Just a question. Why wasn't LeMond sued by PDM for his obvious lies?

That question would have to be addressed to PDM. Probably they thought it would be better to let it be cause obviously they were doping their cyclists (like everyone else).

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

That question would have to be addressed to PDM. Probably they thought it would be better to let it be cause obviously they were doping their cyclists (like everyone else).

So we might say LeMond may have left for that reason? Taken into context the statement by one of his teammates LeMond rode to a supermarket and changed the content of his water bottle provided by PDM with mineral water?

At last we come to an agreement.

 

[pmcg76]

I know very well the sequence of events. What I find really unbelieveble is that Dr Van Mol started his doping practices in 1993 and not before and that Lemond was never aware of his doping practices at any time during their careers before he retired. Extremely unlikely.

But anyway, lets forget Van Mol and concentrate on Bellocq, a doping doctor that everyone knew in the peloton. Why did Lemond join the Z team with Bellocq as a team doctor? He had been doping everyone, from Thevenet to Hinault, Pascal Simon, Millar....

Please, let's call a spade a spade. If you were a client of this doctor you were a doper cause that is what he did, inject into the cyclist body cortisone, testosterone and God knows what else.

So do you really believe that Lemond joined Z without knowing the history of Dr Bellocq? Do you believe that while Lemond was there this doctor stopped his practices? Again, I find it extremely hard to believe, when only one year earlier Dr bellocq had defended Delgado regarding his positive for Probenicid.

This guy not only doped the top cyclists, but also was ready to give a helping hand when they had been caught doping. No wonder he was so popular among them.

And finally, no matter what you take if your form is bad you are not going to win being on EPO, steroids or whatever.

Do you think Delgado did not dope during the 1991 Tour, that only Indurain was on the class A treatment? Well check his performance in that Tour de France. Far worse comparatively to Lemond.

And what about Indurain in 1996? His debacle was even bigger than Lemond's in 1991.

And lets not forget that Lemond had contracted a virus during the 1991 Tour if we believe the words of his entourage.[/QUOT

Well it seems that Bellocq might not have been working with Z when LeMond actually signed for them. He did work with Z/Peugeot in 87 and with GAN in 93 but it seems as he was not connected with the Z team in the intervening seasons according to these links.

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/portraits/bellocq.htm

and this taken from podium cafe:

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/2/23/2010343/LeMaillotJauneBlanchi

"In 1987 he was working with Roger Legeay at Z-Peugeot, and he again worked for Legeay, at GAN, shortly before his death in 1993".

Of course if you can provide evidence that he actually worked with Z/GAN from 87 until 93 I will happily withdraw the links I provided.

As it stands, it seems you might be in the wrong again.

 

[pmcg76]

I know very well the sequence of events. What I find really unbelieveble is that Dr Van Mol started his doping practices in 1993 and not before and that Lemond was never aware of his doping practices at any time during their careers before he retired. Extremely unlikely.

But anyway, lets forget Van Mol and concentrate on Bellocq, a doping doctor that everyone knew in the peloton. Why did Lemond join the Z team with Bellocq as a team doctor? He had been doping everyone, from Thevenet to Hinault, Pascal Simon, Millar....

Please, let's call a spade a spade. If you were a client of this doctor you were a doper cause that is what he did, inject into the cyclist body cortisone, testosterone and God knows what else.

So do you really believe that Lemond joined Z without knowing the history of Dr Bellocq? Do you believe that while Lemond was there this doctor stopped his practices? Again, I find it extremely hard to believe, when only one year earlier Dr bellocq had defended Delgado regarding his positive for Probenicid.

This guy not only doped the top cyclists, but also was ready to give a helping hand when they had been caught doping. No wonder he was so popular among them.

And finally, no matter what you take if your form is bad you are not going to win being on EPO, steroids or whatever.

Do you think Delgado did not dope during the 1991 Tour, that only Indurain was on the class A treatment? Well check his performance in that Tour de France. Far worse comparatively to Lemond.

And what about Indurain in 1996? His debacle was even bigger than Lemond's in 1991.

And lets not forget that Lemond had contracted a virus during the 1991 Tour if we believe the words of his entourage.

Well it seems that Bellocq might not have been working with Z when LeMond actually signed for them. He did work with Z/Peugeot in 87 and with GAN in 93 but it seems as he was not connected with the Z team in the intervening seasons according to these links.

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/portraits/bellocq.htm

and this taken from podium cafe:

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/2/23/...otJauneBlanchi

"In 1987 he was working with Roger Legeay at Z-Peugeot, and he again worked for Legeay, at GAN, shortly before his death in 1993".

Of course if you can provide evidence that he actually worked with Z/GAN from 87 until 93 I will happily withdraw the links I provided.

As it stands, it seems you might be in the wrong again.

 

[Race Radio]

snip

Lots of words, still no evidence.

If you do find some evidence give Bill a call.....although the offer might not be the same as Johan and Vincent got. Cash is a bit tight these days. Darn legal fees

 

[Boeing]

So can Greg counter sue Trek and get his naming rights back now?

 

[benzwire]

I guess Major League Baseball's has an equivalent to Greg. Just another bitter, jealous old man. Maybe some of today's players/juicers will now try to did up something on Aaron, a la Armstrong.

http://www.foxsportswisconsin.com/08/29/12/Aaron-PED-punishments-not-enough/msn_landing.html?blockID=782611&feedID=5059

 

[ultimobici]

I guess Major League Baseball's has an equivalent to Greg. Just another bitter, jealous old man. Maybe some of today's players/juicers will now try to did up something on Aaron, a la Armstrong.

http://www.foxsportswisconsin.com/08/29/12/Aaron-PED-punishments-not-enough/msn_landing.html?blockID=782611&feedID=5059

Not bitter at all, judging by the audience's reaction.

 

[Turner29]

I guess Major League Baseball's has an equivalent to Greg. Just another bitter, jealous old man. Maybe some of today's players/juicers will now try to did up something on Aaron, a la Armstrong.

http://www.foxsportswisconsin.com/08/29/12/Aaron-PED-punishments-not-enough/msn_landing.html?blockID=782611&feedID=5059

So, any retired athlete who speaks out against doping is now a bitter old man?

Ask Tom Seaver what he thinks about Roger Clemens. Does that make Seaver a bitter old man too?

 

[Mr.DNA]

So, any retired athlete who speaks out against doping is now a bitter old man?

Ask Tom Seaver what he thinks about Roger Clemens. Does that make Seaver a bitter old man too?

I think benzwire was being sarcastic.

 

[benzwire]

I think benzwire was being sarcastic.

Bingo! I saw that story and it reminded me of the sh*tstorm that LeMond got for simply stating his disappointment in Lance's affiliation with Dr. Ferrari, a known doping specialist. Next thing you know Greg is crucified for being a jealous, bitter old man when he was simply pointing out the obvious. This story shows just what an a-hole Lance is and the damage his fanboys and PR machine can do. All hail Cancer Jesus.