- Sep 30, 2011
- 9,560
- 9
- 17,495
- Status
Yes Greg Lemond who was afraid of PDM spiking him with testosterone was an evangelist for EPO.
Re: Re:
just wondering why the rumor hasn't gained any traction.
The fact that Dhaenens wasn't able to ever repeat it in the post-Festina period (when doping becomes a hot topic) seems one obvious reason.
Seems this is the first time it's ever mentioned in here.
Here's another poster with doubts:
sounds like somebody close to the game, but i could be wrong.
cheers, MI, always appreciate your insight.Merckx index said:
just wondering why the rumor hasn't gained any traction.
The fact that Dhaenens wasn't able to ever repeat it in the post-Festina period (when doping becomes a hot topic) seems one obvious reason.
Seems this is the first time it's ever mentioned in here.
Here's another poster with doubts:
viewtopic.php?p=851076#p851076
sounds like somebody close to the game, but i could be wrong.
Re: LeMond
no, didn't know.
[/quote]Just for you, from my archive I have digged up a magazine from 1988.
See picture of Greg Lemond/Scar (use bar to scroll down).[/quote]
cheers, appreciate it. great fotos.
so back on topic:
kidney.
epo.
1989.
dhaenens.
adr.
ok, would love to see it."Jeff"":26mxgleq][quote="sniper said:
no, didn't know.
[/quote]Just for you, from my archive I have digged up a magazine from 1988.
See picture of Greg Lemond/Scar (use bar to scroll down).[/quote]
cheers, appreciate it. great fotos.
so back on topic:
kidney.
epo.
1989.
dhaenens.
adr.
- Jul 18, 2010
- 1,301
- 35
- 10,530
EPO is used to treat anemia resulting from chronic kidney failure, not to repair a kidney that has suffered a traumatic injury.
- Jul 25, 2012
- 12,967
- 1,970
- 25,680
Re: Re:
EPO was not available in 86/87.
The likelihood of Amgen risking everything by giving EPO to a guy competing in a sport no Americans cared about is ridiculously small.
He was already the best rider. He probably should have beaten Hinault in '85 and he beat him in '86 (although Hinault probably should have won that one). He didn't need to cheat.
sniper said:
EPO was not available in 86/87.
The likelihood of Amgen risking everything by giving EPO to a guy competing in a sport no Americans cared about is ridiculously small.
He was already the best rider. He probably should have beaten Hinault in '85 and he beat him in '86 (although Hinault probably should have won that one). He didn't need to cheat.
- Sep 29, 2012
- 12,197
- 0
- 0
My biology specific experience is limited, but anyone care to comment on the scar vs the location of kidneys in regards to the gunshot wound damaging the kidneys?
I was under the impression they were at the back of your body, and to the sides?
That's a wound at the front, down the middle?
I was under the impression they were at the back of your body, and to the sides?
That's a wound at the front, down the middle?
- Jul 25, 2012
- 12,967
- 1,970
- 25,680
Re:
To be fair, you might get EPO for this reason either while the kidney healed or it was replaced, but I don't know.
StyrbjornSterki said:
To be fair, you might get EPO for this reason either while the kidney healed or it was replaced, but I don't know.
- Jul 25, 2012
- 12,967
- 1,970
- 25,680
Re:
I suppose it depends where the pellets went. If you have to cover a large area then it makes sense to go in through the front where the spine and ribs aren't going to get in the way.
At the front and down the middle with such a large wound would indicate large open surgery I think
Dear Wiggo said:
I suppose it depends where the pellets went. If you have to cover a large area then it makes sense to go in through the front where the spine and ribs aren't going to get in the way.
At the front and down the middle with such a large wound would indicate large open surgery I think
- Sep 29, 2012
- 12,197
- 0
- 0
Re:
Would be good to see a shot of his back? To get an idea of the spread of pellets?
Dear Wiggo said:
Would be good to see a shot of his back? To get an idea of the spread of pellets?
- Sep 29, 2012
- 12,197
- 0
- 0
StyrbjornSterki said:
Not talking about repairing the kidney. The main site of synthesis of EPO is the kidney. It’s possible that traumatic injury to the kidney would result in reduced synthesis of EPO, and thus anemia. If, following transfusion, Greg’s natural EPO levels were not high enough to maintain his normal HT, the doctors might have considered giving him EPO. This is sheer speculation, obviously, but certainly conceivable.
It's just a real shame that Lemond couldn't have taken some kind of super drug that enhances speaking. Wow is he hard to listen to and watch.
- Sep 29, 2012
- 12,197
- 0
- 0
Re:
he does strike me as a bit naive.
The 'Knaven' argument ('the doc said it was vitamins') has always struck me as ludicrous and an insult to the brain, but for Lemond i'm not so sure.
(and so does this clinic poster: viewtopic.php?p=851076#p851076)
I would be very careful jumping on that bandwagon. Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in the poster being "close to the game".[/quote]
well, it does sound like someone close to the game, which doesn't mean s/he isn't making stuff up of course.
For all i know that poster could have been Lance or a Lance-associate...
i think he's a fun/nice/sympathetic guy to have on the television screen.offbyone said:
he does strike me as a bit naive.
The 'Knaven' argument ('the doc said it was vitamins') has always struck me as ludicrous and an insult to the brain, but for Lemond i'm not so sure.
interesting...Merckx index said:
to be sure, Dhaenens' says Lemond introduced it in 1989, not 1987.King Boonen said:
(and so does this clinic poster: viewtopic.php?p=851076#p851076)
I would be very careful jumping on that bandwagon. Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in the poster being "close to the game".[/quote]
well, it does sound like someone close to the game, which doesn't mean s/he isn't making stuff up of course.
For all i know that poster could have been Lance or a Lance-associate...
This is such an old battleground:
1. Being shot in the kidneys most certainly makes prescription of Epo likely nowadays. (Just as it is likely for chemo). But: if Greg got Epo in 1986/1987 he must have been on the Amgen trial list.
That seems highly unlikely. And if he was: So f***ing what. Being shot in the kidney is a valid excuse for any drug.
2. The 1989 injection is more problematic. Much of the Dutch cycling community in that day had huge questionmarks. Indeed even some doctors commented on it being rather strange (the usefulness of an iron shot is controversial if I understand correctly). And to make it even more tin-foilish: Whereas just iron is of questionable use, the combo Epo and Iron shots does have very potent synergy (but seriously, how avant-garde and knowledgable was Gregs entourage in that day? Even if they pioneered Epo, it's extremely unlikely they knew THAT much already)
Note that the Dutch riders were at the forefront of doping themselves. And stories in the Dutch press in that day and age certainly panned out to be true.
But there's ZERO evidence. We can jump up and down, but we will most likely never know.
3. Lemond and steroids is also hard to place. His hatred for PDM seems a bit much considering his prior teams (Renault, LVC and ADR) and his very close connection with a known doping-quack. Then again, PDM was likely definitely different as it was team based in stead of individual (though our knowledge of the other teams of that age are scarce, so it's all guessing here), so it's not completely hypocritical.
Again, there's ZERO evidence. And in case of the quack; what I understand of it was pretty smalltime dabbling with drops consisting some steroids and vitamins. And yes, considering the "magic" of the soigneur the chances that Greg only got a very vague idea of the contents of the stuff he got administered is likely.
It's hard to say if the lack of direct evidence or inside stories is in anyway an indication. For many stars of that generation we have zero evidence and no or few doping stories. Raas, Kelly and even for Hinault we have no inside stories (though his knee issues were linked to steroids by some people).
In any case the major doping vectors (hormones/blood doping) were already known and used by at least the Norway, USA, Italy, Russia, Netherlands and Spain. Considering much of it was open in the press ever since the seventies we can be certain pro-sporters were aware of it. Epo is of course a bit different, but in 1989 every pro-cyclist would have been aware of the impact of new doping considering the Dutch Winter games blitz and the PDM frankenteam. It was rather widely reported in our press, so anyone saying the 1994 Ferrari interview was the opening of the curtain had been living under a rock.
My own opinion? I don't care about it anymore. Greg is not a shitty person and that has become my benchmark lately. It's extremely unlikely we will ever know what was going on in that day and era. It all boils down to faith.
1. Being shot in the kidneys most certainly makes prescription of Epo likely nowadays. (Just as it is likely for chemo). But: if Greg got Epo in 1986/1987 he must have been on the Amgen trial list.
That seems highly unlikely. And if he was: So f***ing what. Being shot in the kidney is a valid excuse for any drug.
2. The 1989 injection is more problematic. Much of the Dutch cycling community in that day had huge questionmarks. Indeed even some doctors commented on it being rather strange (the usefulness of an iron shot is controversial if I understand correctly). And to make it even more tin-foilish: Whereas just iron is of questionable use, the combo Epo and Iron shots does have very potent synergy (but seriously, how avant-garde and knowledgable was Gregs entourage in that day? Even if they pioneered Epo, it's extremely unlikely they knew THAT much already)
Note that the Dutch riders were at the forefront of doping themselves. And stories in the Dutch press in that day and age certainly panned out to be true.
But there's ZERO evidence. We can jump up and down, but we will most likely never know.
3. Lemond and steroids is also hard to place. His hatred for PDM seems a bit much considering his prior teams (Renault, LVC and ADR) and his very close connection with a known doping-quack. Then again, PDM was likely definitely different as it was team based in stead of individual (though our knowledge of the other teams of that age are scarce, so it's all guessing here), so it's not completely hypocritical.
Again, there's ZERO evidence. And in case of the quack; what I understand of it was pretty smalltime dabbling with drops consisting some steroids and vitamins. And yes, considering the "magic" of the soigneur the chances that Greg only got a very vague idea of the contents of the stuff he got administered is likely.
It's hard to say if the lack of direct evidence or inside stories is in anyway an indication. For many stars of that generation we have zero evidence and no or few doping stories. Raas, Kelly and even for Hinault we have no inside stories (though his knee issues were linked to steroids by some people).
In any case the major doping vectors (hormones/blood doping) were already known and used by at least the Norway, USA, Italy, Russia, Netherlands and Spain. Considering much of it was open in the press ever since the seventies we can be certain pro-sporters were aware of it. Epo is of course a bit different, but in 1989 every pro-cyclist would have been aware of the impact of new doping considering the Dutch Winter games blitz and the PDM frankenteam. It was rather widely reported in our press, so anyone saying the 1994 Ferrari interview was the opening of the curtain had been living under a rock.
My own opinion? I don't care about it anymore. Greg is not a shitty person and that has become my benchmark lately. It's extremely unlikely we will ever know what was going on in that day and era. It all boils down to faith.
great post, Franklin.
only i'd add again that the EPO claims/rumors concern 1989.
as for that soigneur/doping-quack. you referring to Vanmol?
only i'd add again that the EPO claims/rumors concern 1989.
as for that soigneur/doping-quack. you referring to Vanmol?
Nope that was Bellocq. And Bellocq is an UNLIKELY source for Epo.
Bellocq was about hormone treament (reballancing). He did not have the connections to modern avant-guarde medicine.
Perhaps the case could be made that he would rebalance bloodcells and thus be fine with Epo. It's certainly very likely that Bellocq would think that would be okay. Indeed, for many doctors Epo was much safer than blood transfusions in a hot and messy TdF, so there was an angle for genuine concern for the riders ( i certainly think doctors did concern this, they are humans, not robotic monsters). But this is speculative, the link between Bellocq and Epo is non-exsistent. The link between Bellocq and transfusions is only there if we look at his clients (Hinaults opinion about transfusions in particular), but that is extremly weak considering they haven't been fingered as blood dopers).
Keep in mind that the connection with Lemond and Bellocq is not uncontested. For example Race Radio says he was never a client. However, this seems nonsensical considering Bellocq was involved with Hinault, was the friend of Legeay and became the Team-doctor of Z and Gan. If anything the last two connections make it extremely odd if Greg never had dealing with him (though if that goes beyond a bandaid after a spill or full fledged quack treatment is anyones guess).
Interestingly enough this does makes the Legeay position a bit more gray than people make it out to be. Bellocq believed doping was okay as long as it got riders back into "natural" levels. This was echoed by Hinault who also made a case that doping (including blood doping!)was only doping if you went beyond "natural" levels.
http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/portraits/bellocq.htm
One rectification from my prior post; Bellocq's method was not secret, so the argument that Greg might not have known what Bellocq did is nonsense. Everyone in cycling knew and understood Bellocq's role and that certainly will have been true for the riders in th eteams he worked with.
But there's still ZERO evidence Greg took any kind of doping. So I reiterate: we will probably never know.
Bellocq was about hormone treament (reballancing). He did not have the connections to modern avant-guarde medicine.
Perhaps the case could be made that he would rebalance bloodcells and thus be fine with Epo. It's certainly very likely that Bellocq would think that would be okay. Indeed, for many doctors Epo was much safer than blood transfusions in a hot and messy TdF, so there was an angle for genuine concern for the riders ( i certainly think doctors did concern this, they are humans, not robotic monsters). But this is speculative, the link between Bellocq and Epo is non-exsistent. The link between Bellocq and transfusions is only there if we look at his clients (Hinaults opinion about transfusions in particular), but that is extremly weak considering they haven't been fingered as blood dopers).
Keep in mind that the connection with Lemond and Bellocq is not uncontested. For example Race Radio says he was never a client. However, this seems nonsensical considering Bellocq was involved with Hinault, was the friend of Legeay and became the Team-doctor of Z and Gan. If anything the last two connections make it extremely odd if Greg never had dealing with him (though if that goes beyond a bandaid after a spill or full fledged quack treatment is anyones guess).
Interestingly enough this does makes the Legeay position a bit more gray than people make it out to be. Bellocq believed doping was okay as long as it got riders back into "natural" levels. This was echoed by Hinault who also made a case that doping (including blood doping!)was only doping if you went beyond "natural" levels.
http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/portraits/bellocq.htm
One rectification from my prior post; Bellocq's method was not secret, so the argument that Greg might not have known what Bellocq did is nonsense. Everyone in cycling knew and understood Bellocq's role and that certainly will have been true for the riders in th eteams he worked with.
But there's still ZERO evidence Greg took any kind of doping. So I reiterate: we will probably never know.
Re:
what do you make of his ADR year? The year marked his comeback to elite level. Autologous blood transfusions and PEDs were rampant in that period and EPO was on the rise.
The belgian staff on that ADR team was as dodgy as they come.
One of the doctors was a certain Yvan Vanmol (also spelled Van Mol), whose name you'll no doubt recognize.
The accusations levelled at him by different riders (even by another doc) mostly concern the early 90s and beyond (so unrelated to his ADR period), but they show he was a very old school doping doc/administrator/provider.
thanks for expanding. interesting.Franklin said:
what do you make of his ADR year? The year marked his comeback to elite level. Autologous blood transfusions and PEDs were rampant in that period and EPO was on the rise.
The belgian staff on that ADR team was as dodgy as they come.
One of the doctors was a certain Yvan Vanmol (also spelled Van Mol), whose name you'll no doubt recognize.
The accusations levelled at him by different riders (even by another doc) mostly concern the early 90s and beyond (so unrelated to his ADR period), but they show he was a very old school doping doc/administrator/provider.
- Status
TRENDING THREADS
-
World Championship 2025: Men’s RR, September 28- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 2K
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 35K
-
Il Lombardia 2025, monument, October 11- Started by Krzysztof_O
- Replies: 792
-
Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 41K
-
European Championship 2025: Men’s RR, October 5- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 854
-
Teams & Riders The Great Big Cycling Transfers, Extensions, and Rumours Thread- Started by RedheadDane
- Replies: 13K
-
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram