LeMond II

[Franklin]

Sniper: I truly don't know.

On the one hand ADR was dirty as hell, it was Gregs miracle year and the ever unreliable Eddy Planckaert had some insane stories about doping (many shown to be attention seeking craziness). Eddy is rather wacko, so it's hard to value his claims.

On the other hand Greg was very loosely connected, left that team as fast as he could and was the first rider who made a strong dstatement about PDM and doping (and left that team super-fast). And the team was super-weak, so that does not make the idea they all rode on rocketfuel very strong.

My guess? Greg had nothing to do with that team beyond his shirt and paycheck, he was too smart for that. But that does not automatically exclude him being a doper, so it's all a big jumble.

Unless something new hit's the surface I'm not that interested in the subject beyond clarifying some of the background for your sake.

 

[sniper]

appreciate it.
good points.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Re:

It's just a real shame that Lemond couldn't have taken some kind of super drug that enhances speaking. Wow is he hard to listen to and watch.

Fairly obvious he has a speech impediment - so 'lay off' Greg !

 

[sniper]

am now reading tidbits of Hans Vandeweghe “Wie gelooft die renners nog?”.
there's an interview with Van Mol from 2006 in there, where he speaks quite openly about doping and says he's seen one guy win the TdF on burritos and tacos: Greg.
Imo that's a pretty strong reference for Lemond to have. (Van Mol was ADR doctor in 1989).

VandeWeghe indeed briefly speaks about the rumor that apparently circulated for some time about Lemond having used EPO for his kidney, but discards it on the basis of the before-mentioned argument that it wasn't in use yet in 87.
He mentions no sources for the rumor.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

http://bestoflemond.blogspot.com/2007/04/hunting-accident-1987.html
allegedly that's him after the shooting.
is that a non-believing Lance in the comment section?

Not "allegedly him"...IS him

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

lemond accidentally got shot by his brother in law:
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-12-04/sports/sp-5740_1_greg-lemond
Pellets were removed from LeMond's liver, kidneys and intestines.

fishy at best.
are there any fotos of him in the hospital?
another TdF winner with an 'amazing' recovery story...

you didn,t know?...
bestoflemond.blogspot.in/2007/04/hunting-accident-1987.html?m=1

indeed, didn't know, and haven't seen it discussed in the clinic.
i wonder how many tdf champions get accidentally shot?
sounds only slightly more plausible than bilharzia.
but it seems it really happened.
and all the reports note that his kidneys got hit.
which in turn increases the plausibility of the EPO rumors, although i can't find the original source for that.

you dont believe he got shot?

---edited by mod----

Yes, the No 1 Tour rider in the world whose closeset rival(Hinault) had just retired, faked getting himself shot, ruining the next two seasons of his career just so he could stage a miraculous comeback by blood doping.

LOL! Talk about conspiracy theorists, ah? That's it Snipes, you caught us all trying to cover up for Greg

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

I usually believe Lemond to be cleans, but his new found love for dopers gives me a bit more doubt.

I mean, the guy was clearly never anti-doping, it was all about Lance. Which is fine, but it gives me less faith in him when he doesn't care about present day doping.

Let's go over this AGAIN:

LeMond has been retired for 21 yrs, IT WOULD'VE COME OUT BY NOW. Please post ANY info you have that states LeMond doped, just one Dr's name, what drugs, when they were given, by whom, where, etc etc.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I usually believe Lemond to be cleans, but his new found love for dopers gives me a bit more doubt.

I mean, the guy was clearly never anti-doping, it was all about Lance. Which is fine, but it gives me less faith in him when he doesn't care about present day doping.

Let's go over this AGAIN:

LeMond has been retired for 21 yrs, IT WOULD'VE COME OUT BY NOW. Please post ANY info you have that states LeMond doped, just one Dr's name, what drugs, when they were given, by whom, where, etc etc.

i just did that.

though not a doctor but a rider.

name of accuser: Rudy Dhaenens.
name of the accused: Greg Lemond
what drugs: EPO
when given: somewhere between 87 and 89
by whom/where: at the hospital where Lemond was treated, i.e. some american doctor(s)/pharmacist(s).
nature of accusation: rumor in peloton (cf. Hans VandeWeghe "Geloven we de renners nog?")

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

dhaenens unfortunately died in 1998 in a car accident.

Seems this is the first time it's ever mentioned in here.
Here's another poster with doubts:

Use of EPO started in 86/87

Greg Lemond for sure was one of the ''pioneers'' to use this new wonderdrug. He used blood-doping up to 87, introduced to epo afte or duringr the 89 giro. Everyone who raced in the pro-peloton those days of course knew all about Lemonds ''miracolous" improvement within a few weeks the summer of 89. From an anemic state to the best rider....but sure the man has a lot of humour with his "B12-story".

viewtopic.php?p=851076#p851076

sounds like somebody close to the game, but i could be wrong.

IF whoever this "expert" is who claims to know this, had even a shred of proof to back it up, don't you think he/she would've been all over the news about it? Surely someone with a vendetta against LeMond would've been to USADA/WADA/UCI with their hands in the air, waving said proof in their faces, and eventually bring him down.

Plus, Wonderboy offers up $350K to ANY rider with "proof" that LeMond doped, and no one bites?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

dhaenens unfortunately died in 1998 in a car accident.

He was already the best rider. He probably should have beaten Hinault in '85 and he beat him in '86 (although Hinault probably should have won that one). He didn't need to cheat.

Exactly! Didn't he come in 3rd in his first TDF? then second(to Hinault in 85) then wins in 86".

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

IF whoever this "expert" is who claims to know this, had even a shred of proof to back it up, don't you think he/she would've been all over the news about it? Surely someone with a vendetta against LeMond would've been to USADA/WADA/UCI with their hands in the air, waving said proof in their faces, and eventually bring him down.

Plus, Wonderboy offers up $350K to ANY rider with "proof" that LeMond doped, and no one bites?

as noted previously, dhaenens died of a carcrash in 1998, so he couldn't go anywhere.

perhaps you can address the message (as e.g. Merckx Index and Franklin have done) because you'll sound no better than the average lance fan if you just dismiss it as nonesense.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

It's just a real shame that Lemond couldn't have taken some kind of super drug that enhances speaking. Wow is he hard to listen to and watch.

Fairly obvious he has a speech impediment - so 'lay off' Greg !

This x 1000. I'd rather listen to Greg all day then Liggett the tool

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

dhaenens unfortunately died in 1998 in a car accident.

sigh, you just jump in without reading the discussion.
as noted previously, dhaenens died of a carcrash in 1998.

perhaps you can address the message (as e.g. Merckx Index and Franklin have done) because otherwise you'll sound no better than the average lance fan if you just dismiss it as nonesense.

Nope, read and am fully aware of the discussion. You keep grasping(hoping) at straws, everyone here has pretty much told you we'll never know, but you keep on with it.

Like I said, 'IF" that so called "expert" had even a shred of factual proof that Greg doped, then s/he most certainly would've brought it out by now, right?

I think it's a myth he doped.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

IF whoever this "expert" is who claims to know this, had even a shred of proof to back it up, don't you think he/she would've been all over the news about it? Surely someone with a vendetta against LeMond would've been to USADA/WADA/UCI with their hands in the air, waving said proof in their faces, and eventually bring him down.

Plus, Wonderboy offers up $350K to ANY rider with "proof" that LeMond doped, and no one bites?

as noted previously, dhaenens died of a carcrash in 1998, so he couldn't go anywhere.

perhaps you can address the message (as e.g. Merckx Index and Franklin have done) because you'll sound no better than the average lance fan if you just dismiss it as nonesense.

I've read what they said, and I'll say it AGAIN: IF he did dope, then where's the proof? He's been retired for 21 yrs, and nothing. Wonderboy offered up $350K to ANY one(rider/domestique/coach/mgr/etc) gthat saw Greg dope, that was crickets chirp too. The guy died in 98, that gave him how many years beforehand to drop the bomb on Greg, why wait to do it? he obviously didn't like Greg(whoever it is), so why wait to bust him if he did? seems odd to me.

AGAIN, You're playing the slot machine, hoping you hit the jackpot. Been beaten to death this topic, but evry so often, people bring it up, get educated, and then it goes away. Franklin said numerous times, that he doubts Greg doped, I do, and others do as well. take all that FWIW.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: LeMond

If only Dhaenens didn't blow his mind out in a car (he didn't notice that the lights had changed) in '98, he could've taken Lance's $350,000 offer, and now Greg's name would be mud.

If only.

Don't you just love counter-factuals?!

As it stands, only one American has won the Tour; this one American won it three times.

 

[sniper]

@86TDFWinner
Not hoping to hit any jackpot, and not hoping that anything sticks.
I think Lemond is a pretty ok guy (although he shouldn't hang with Indurain).
And as I said, I think Van Mol vouchiing for his cleanliness in 1989 is one hell of a strong reference.
Van Mol has admitted to being a doping doc, and still he assures us that Lemond, with whom he worked together in 1989, was clean that year.

In your response to sceptic, you didn't ask for proof. You asked for one name, one accusation. And I gave you that. The Dhaenens accusation. Hasn't been discussed at any point previously in the Clinic.
You think we should just ignore it? Not relevant?
Again, if that's your stance, you sound no better than the average Armstrong fan.

 

[MacRoadie]

Re: Re:

IF whoever this "expert" is who claims to know this, had even a shred of proof to back it up, don't you think he/she would've been all over the news about it? Surely someone with a vendetta against LeMond would've been to USADA/WADA/UCI with their hands in the air, waving said proof in their faces, and eventually bring him down.

The "expert" joined the forum in May 2011, and last visited in June of 2012. Total of 42 posts, almost half in the Armstrong threads. I think that explains a few things, as does the rest of his "insightful" posting history:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/search.php?author_id=20938&sr=posts

Definitely an "expert" very close to the pro peloton...

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

IF whoever this "expert" is who claims to know this, had even a shred of proof to back it up, don't you think he/she would've been all over the news about it? Surely someone with a vendetta against LeMond would've been to USADA/WADA/UCI with their hands in the air, waving said proof in their faces, and eventually bring him down.

The "expert" joined the forum in May 2011, and last visited in June of 2012. Total of 42 posts, almost half in the Armstrong threads. I think that explains a few things, as does the rest of his "insightful" posting history:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/search.php?author_id=20938&sr=posts

Definitely an "expert" very close to the pro peloton...

Any dirt on Rudy Dhaenens?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

@86TDFWinner
Not hoping to hit any jackpot, and not hoping that anything sticks.

Then why do you keep beating this dead horse, to prove what point exactly?

I think Lemond is a pretty ok guy (although he shouldn't hang with Indurain).

About the ONLY thing we agree on

And as I said, I think Van Mol vouchiing for his cleanliness in 1989 is one hell of a strong reference.
Van Mol has admitted to being a doping doc, and still he assures us that Lemond, with whom he worked together in 1989, was clean that year.

THEN WHY DO YOU KEEP ASKING, SOMETHING YOU ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER TO?

Just to add another name, how about: Andy Hampsten, who was asked about LeMond doping, and he said he never did.

In your response to sceptic, you didn't ask for proof. You asked for one name, one accusation. And I gave you that. The Dhaenens accusation. Hasn't been discussed at any point previously in the Clinic.
You think we should just ignore it? Not relevant?

Umm, I did ask for proof. I asked for a Drs name, who administered said drugs, when, where, how, etc etc. That's "proof", something someone's dog said, doesn't hold water, actual "proof" does.

Again, if that's your stance, you sound no better than the average Armstrong fan.

LOL! Typical response from a Wonderboy fan. I wish you'd stop saying that, because all it does is makes you look bitter. Wonderboy is a liar, fraud, phoney, scam, bully & has lied for over a decade. LeMond hasn't, and until someone proves otherwise, your "witch hunt" and "I was just asking...blah blah blah" NONSENSE, continue to make YOU look like a bitter Armstrong supporter/super fan, who still believes in delusional Wonderboy.

 

[sniper]

jeesus flippin christ get a grip. you sound like an armstrong groupie, trying to suffocate discussion about your hero.
don't know about you, but i'm here to discuss things. get wiser, and stuff. exchange thoughts, exchange info. talk doping.

if I have info/question that I want feedback on, I post it here. People will then either ignore me, tell me there's nothing to see, or provide me with new info. Either way, I become wiser in the process, e.g. thanks for instance to posts from Franklin, Macroadie. Sorry if that bothers you for whatever reason.

And what 'dead horse' are you talking about? Nobody had heard of dhaenens before. nobody knew he'd accused lemond of introducing EPO into the peloton. It's new info, the opposite of a 'dead horse'. Why wouldn't i post it?
I sincerely apologize if it bursts whatever bubble you're living in wrt Lemond.
You said "give me a name". I gave you a name. And you started yelling, discrediting, instead of providing constructive feedback.
Seems you don't like discussing new info...too bad.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Re: Re:

My biology specific experience is limited, but anyone care to comment on the scar vs the location of kidneys in regards to the gunshot wound damaging the kidneys?

I have near abouts its twin. That's the standard incision site for a laparotomy. It makes for such a large opening, essentially the entire abdominal cavity is accessible, including the kidney(s). In Lemond's case, they didn't operate expressly to repair a kidney, and probably would not have known with any certainty that a kidney was involved until they were inside. They went in to survey the extent of the damage, make all possible repairs and recover some of the buckshot.

EPO is used to treat anemia resulting from chronic kidney failure, not to repair a kidney that has suffered a traumatic injury.

To be fair, you might get EPO for this reason either while the kidney healed or it was replaced, but I don't know.

Administering EPO to an immobilised person who is not anemic puts them at risk of "sludging." It does nothing to accelerate a damaged kidney's healing process in a patient with nominal blood panels.


True then, true now:

There is exactly as much credible evidence that Lemond fired the shot from the grassy knoll at Dealey Plaza as there is he ever used PEDs.

The fanboys can never get over the fact that their lord and saviour was brought down by mere eye-witness testimony (which they are desperate to mischaracterise as hearsay), not hard physical evidence, and they are keen to stretch that same bag over Lemond's head. If Lemond didn't dope, Pharmstrong's "couldn't win without it" mantra hasn't a leg to stand on, and the fanboys cannot abide that because they hold out hope he yet might be redeemed.

Except in Lemond's case, there are no eye witnesses, leaving only the hearsay, the rumours, the innuendos and the aspersions, AKA character assassination.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

jeesus flippin christ get a grip. you sound like an armstrong groupie, trying to suffocate discussion about your hero.

LOL! You mean like what you're doing now, trying to prop up your hero Wonderboy? I'm sorry you can't seem to comprehend that someone won the tour clean.

don't know about you, but i'm here to discuss things. get wiser, and stuff. exchange thoughts, exchange info. talk doping.

Funny, discussion is what I thought we were doing? Unless you see otherwise(which you do) Nothing unfriendly here, just back and forth banter. Seems you're having trouble being civil.

if I have info/question that I want feedback on, I post it here.

And people have posted info to "educate you" in this thread(and others), yet you STILL don't "get it", and certainly are mad apparently because you're not hearing what you want in return.

People will then either ignore me, tell me there's nothing to see, or provide me with new info.

Pretty sure they all have told you "nothing to see here"....they've also provided you with new info, and yet you STILL keep trying to dig.

Either way, I become wiser in the process, e.g. thanks for instance to posts from Franklin, Macroadie. Sorry if that bothers you for whatever reason.

Apparently you haven't, as you still continue on with asking questions you already know the answers to. THAT'S "Beating a dead horse", is it not? yes. There's an entire thread devoted to LeMond elsewhere in this forum, yet you continue posting here, when all the answers you're seeking are there for everyone to see, and be "educated" by. You just had to simply look it up.

And what 'dead horse' are you talking about? Nobody had heard of dhaenens before.

The "dead horse" of people continuing to try to dig up stuff on LeMond. "Nobody had heard of Dhaenens before", yet, some folks here have responded to it, and said he was most likely FOC. Guess someone's "heard of him before", eh?

nobody knew he'd accused lemond of introducing EPO into the peloton.

see above response.

It's new info, the opposite of a 'dead horse'. Why wouldn't i post it?

Because you're just wanting to drag down LeMond to boost your ego/agenda. May I suggest you forward this "newly found info" you have to: UCI/USADA/WADA/CIRC, and inform them of this, perhaps after they're done laughing, they'll respond to you. Maybe you'll even get a signed Thank You letter from Travis for sending him info he most likely had already.

I sincerely apologize if it bursts whatever bubble you're living in wrt Lemond.

No bubble to burst really. Just find posts/threads like this useless, as it's been discussed ad nauseum. Not angry, upset, or mad & have nothing to be upset/angry/or mad about. I've tried(along with others here) to "educate you", but you've refused to be educated" up to this point.

You said "give me a name". I gave you a name. And you started yelling, discrediting, instead of providing constructive feedback.

I did? My bad. I've "discredited" something that was fake from the beginning(as others here have also tried pointing out to you), not my fault if you can't understand or wish to accept the info given. I've also given you constructive feedback, and you still took issues with it, and didn't like what you heard.

By "names" did this 'source' you're on about list any: drs names, what drugs were supposedly "introduced by Greg into the peloton", when they were administered, by whom, when, where, why, and how? let me answer for you: NO, NONE of it/that was listed, why? it was most likely a myth, a fabricated lie probably created by a jealous LeMond hater. Has this 'source" left any CREDIBLE info with anyone to back up this ridiculous statement? That remains to be seen. Surely there has to be some sort of paper trail, a diary, a ledger, a former Rider/domestique/team coach that would easily back up this 'sources" info, and claim he/she was right with what they said?

Seems you don't like discussing new info...too bad.

And it seems like you don't like the answers being given to this "new info", despite 3-4 others trying to "educate you" on it. Too bad.

 

[the delgados]

86TDFWinner:
Please stop accusing those who have legitimate questions/and or random speculations about Lemond of being Armstrong supporters. It does nothing to bolster your case.

 

[Benotti69]

Not impressed with LeMond taking the line that the sport is now cleanER and so talking to the likes of Vino and today Mick Rogers is all well and good. It aint.

The guy is rich, not billionaire rich, but he dont need to do this to earn a crust!

It really points to LeMond being only anti Armstrong. All those dopers and doping enablers that raced against Armstrong are still there....bar 1 or 2..

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re:

Not impressed with LeMond taking the line that the sport is now cleanER and so talking to the likes of Vino and today Mick Rogers is all well and good. It aint.

The guy is rich, not billionaire rich, but he dont need to do this to earn a crust!

It really points to LeMond being only anti Armstrong. All those dopers and doping enablers that raced against Armstrong are still there....bar 1 or 2..

and anti Landis for a while.
He is really not interested in doping in cycling at all. Just his personal vendetta against LA for which he uses he cycling forum