LeMond III

[thehog]

Re:

it would be truly amazing if LeMond was 100% clean. I don't know either way but I highly doubt it. I don't think it's possible to be 100% clean then or now or ever in cycling. The culture just isn't about that at all. People believe what they want to believe though...particularly in the land of apple pie where anything is possible and the majority of the population believes angels are real.

Agreed, LeMonds doping tends to get categorised under 'iron shots' or 'vaccines', God knows what else he has taken for the common cold. The other facets of his life he has taken all types of things to get through. Whilst some may question whether he doped or not, one can say with absolute certainty that he wasn't 'clean'.

 

[ebandit]

....agreed hoggy!.... we've all seen the roubaix pic......................

Mark L

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: LeMond

Arguing about Lemond like this is a bit futile. But, in other news, a team of Macaque monkeys have just written the sequel to Tolstoy's War and Peace. Apparently, it's pretty good.

I guess if we all keep at it, we may reach a satisfactory conclusion.

1989: it was the best of years, it was the worst of years. There was this ace American bike rider who...

Just fell off my chair. Laughing so hard it hurts.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

So, it turns out Max Testa has his own thread in the Clinic, circa 2012:

The Massimo (Max) Testa Thread

I'm doing more research on the esteemed doctor right now, but that should get us started.

Dont want to be an A hole but if you need to do research on Testa you are lightyears behind....

Well I mean there is knowing about him and then there is trying to gather up specific quotes to supply documentation for discussion. I think that is where he was coming from.

 

[thehog]

Re:

....agreed hoggy!.... we've all seen the roubaix pic......................

Mark L

We have. Found this article on LeMond about Contador positive test. Does Greg ever gold consistency on doping, or does he make it up as he goes along

I find it hard to believe that a professional like Alberto Contador would risk a detectable drug and I can’t believe how many people have left a certain team and then gone positive,” LeMond told Cyclingnews after hearing the news.

“I’m all for eliminating drugs but the powerful ones aren’t detectable but I don’t think that this is a black and white drug test. Look at the quantities that he was detected with,” he said.

“There’s some crazy stuff in cycling with people going positive for things that have little to no benefit to performance. To risk a Tour de France victory for this….”

Despite Contador claiming that the positive test was down to a cut of meat he faces a fight to clear both his name and a possible suspension. However, LeMond believes that his image as well as the sport’s has been permanently tarnished no matter the outcome.

“Anything like this is devastating but this is like someone going positive for marijuana, I don’t think there’s a benefit to it but if it’s on the list, it’s on the list. I’m trying to walk a fine line but I don’t believe in the transparency of the sport or that there’s equal treatment for everyone out there. It just blows me away.”

Anti-doping Greg

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I doubt there is a study and I'm not going "on the line" to find it but ------is there any connection between the PEDS of the 80's and a significant drop in Vo2 scores?

 

[Spawn of e]

Re: Re:

We have. Found this article on LeMond about Contador positive test. Does Greg ever gold consistency on doping, or does he make it up as he goes along

I find it hard to believe that a professional like Alberto Contador would risk a detectable drug and I can’t believe how many people have left a certain team and then gone positive,” LeMond told Cyclingnews after hearing the news.

“I’m all for eliminating drugs but the powerful ones aren’t detectable but I don’t think that this is a black and white drug test. Look at the quantities that he was detected with,” he said.

“There’s some crazy stuff in cycling with people going positive for things that have little to no benefit to performance. To risk a Tour de France victory for this….”

Despite Contador claiming that the positive test was down to a cut of meat he faces a fight to clear both his name and a possible suspension. However, LeMond believes that his image as well as the sport’s has been permanently tarnished no matter the outcome.

“Anything like this is devastating but this is like someone going positive for marijuana, I don’t think there’s a benefit to it but if it’s on the list, it’s on the list. I’m trying to walk a fine line but I don’t believe in the transparency of the sport or that there’s equal treatment for everyone out there. It just blows me away.”

Anti-doping Greg

You should reread some of his babble in the 90's discussed earlier.

 

[blutto]

...the has a lot of talk here about proof ....what is reasonable proof....burden of proof...how to move forward with proof....heck someone even pulled Plato into the discussion...

...so when I ran into the following I thought it should be brought to the attention of this most august thread....

If we follow journalism’s golden rule, widely praised by Alex Cockburn, of never trusting anything unless it’s officially denied,

...and then there is this fine old stand by...don't know what Plato would have said but it has been used to good affect a few times....

In U.S. criminal law, means, motive, and opportunity is a common summation of the three aspects of a crime that must be established before guilt can be determined in a criminal proceeding.

Cheers

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

We have. Found this article on LeMond about Contador positive test. Does Greg ever gold consistency on doping, or does he make it up as he goes along

I find it hard to believe that a professional like Alberto Contador would risk a detectable drug and I can’t believe how many people have left a certain team and then gone positive,” LeMond told Cyclingnews after hearing the news.

“I’m all for eliminating drugs but the powerful ones aren’t detectable but I don’t think that this is a black and white drug test. Look at the quantities that he was detected with,” he said.

“There’s some crazy stuff in cycling with people going positive for things that have little to no benefit to performance. To risk a Tour de France victory for this….”

Despite Contador claiming that the positive test was down to a cut of meat he faces a fight to clear both his name and a possible suspension. However, LeMond believes that his image as well as the sport’s has been permanently tarnished no matter the outcome.

“Anything like this is devastating but this is like someone going positive for marijuana, I don’t think there’s a benefit to it but if it’s on the list, it’s on the list. I’m trying to walk a fine line but I don’t believe in the transparency of the sport or that there’s equal treatment for everyone out there. It just blows me away.”

Anti-doping Greg

Jeebus. Is there any doper LeMond has not sucked up to--excepting Armstrong, of course? Surely someone can find this keen insight's thoughts on Ricardo Ricco or Stephen Schumacher before those two tested positive. It would be comedy gold to listen to Greg rationalize their performance and praise them for riding like old school champions.

LeMond is either the dumbest man to ever ride on a pro contract, someone who remained completely oblivious to everything involved in his profession, or he is a pathological liar who derives pleasure from telling whoppers to the press.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

We have. Found this article on LeMond about Contador positive test. Does Greg ever gold consistency on doping, or does he make it up as he goes along

I find it hard to believe that a professional like Alberto Contador would risk a detectable drug and I can’t believe how many people have left a certain team and then gone positive,” LeMond told Cyclingnews after hearing the news.

“I’m all for eliminating drugs but the powerful ones aren’t detectable but I don’t think that this is a black and white drug test. Look at the quantities that he was detected with,” he said.

“There’s some crazy stuff in cycling with people going positive for things that have little to no benefit to performance. To risk a Tour de France victory for this….”

Despite Contador claiming that the positive test was down to a cut of meat he faces a fight to clear both his name and a possible suspension. However, LeMond believes that his image as well as the sport’s has been permanently tarnished no matter the outcome.

“Anything like this is devastating but this is like someone going positive for marijuana, I don’t think there’s a benefit to it but if it’s on the list, it’s on the list. I’m trying to walk a fine line but I don’t believe in the transparency of the sport or that there’s equal treatment for everyone out there. It just blows me away.”

Anti-doping Greg

Jeebus. Is there any doper LeMond has not sucked up to--excepting Armstrong, of course? Surely someone can find this keen insight's thoughts on Ricardo Ricco or Stephen Schumacher before those two tested positive. It would be comedy gold to listen to Greg rationalize their performance and praise them for riding like old school champions.

LeMond is either the dumbest man to ever ride on a pro contract, someone who remained completely oblivious to everything involved in his profession, or he is a pathological liar who derives pleasure from telling whoppers to the press.

....hmmm....tough call...or we maybe just do away with the debate and simply combine the two categories ( I mean they don't necessarily need to be mutually exclusive do they ? ) and create something like dumbest pathological liar ( which more better fits the ace#1 colour commentator we saw doing his thang this last summer... )...

Cheers

 

[aphronesis]

That was always my feeling. Congenital.

 

[blutto]

Re:

That was always my feeling. Congenital.

...keyboard please...

Cheers

 

[Stingray34]

Re: LeMond

Arguing about Lemond like this is a bit futile. But, in other news, a team of Macaque monkeys have just written the sequel to Tolstoy's War and Peace. Apparently, it's pretty good.

I guess if we all keep at it, we may reach a satisfactory conclusion.

1989: it was the best of years, it was the worst of years. There was this ace American bike rider who...

Just fell off my chair. Laughing so hard it hurts.

I need to take my act to Houston, I guess.

I shoulda said 'room full of' instead of 'team' to make it more random.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: LeMond

Arguing about Lemond like this is a bit futile. But, in other news, a team of Macaque monkeys have just written the sequel to Tolstoy's War and Peace. Apparently, it's pretty good.

I guess if we all keep at it, we may reach a satisfactory conclusion.

1989: it was the best of years, it was the worst of years. There was this ace American bike rider who...

I like it, but can't resist pointing out that it would have more euphony if it went:

A Tale of Two Bike Riders

1989: it was the best of years, it was the worst of years. There was a clean bike rider, there was a dirty bike rider . . . .

Damn it - you're right! I honestly got the titles mixed up. There was just such a nexus between 1789 and 1989! One ended in a reign of terror around 1806, the other a 'hegemony' in 2006 according to Le Clerc...and both were right.

Revolutions always start off with the best of intentions, then...

 

[sniper]

From the book Wheelmen.

Eddie B. in Poland:


Eddie B and Fraysse:


Eddie B. with Lemond:

 

[sniper]

i see the previous post came out a bit odd, with the pictures not fitting in the frame.

Let me summarize it, including findings from previous posts:

pre-76: Borysewicz, very decent former amateur cyclist, studies sports physiology in Warsaw, oversees Polish cyclists drugs programs with amphetamines and hormones on the menu

77: Borysewicz is contracted by Fraysse to help further US cycling on the Olympic stage.
Borysewicz discovers Lemond, allegedly takes him on as his son, sends him 'training' programs.

78: Lemond travels to Poland.

84: LA Games blooddoping program developed by Eddie B. is exposed.

85: allegations surface that Borysewicz previously took junior US athletes to Poland to learn how to auto-transfuse.

88: Eddie B. and Thom "EPO" Weisel hook up.

89/90(?): Lemond invests in Weisel's Montgomery Securities, the company dedicated to the commercial exploitation of EPO.

2003: Eddie B.'s house burns down. Lemond throws him a fundraiser. All LA 84 blooddopers are invited.

 

[ebandit]

wowieeee............e!

89/90(?): Lemond invests in Weisel's Montgomery Securities, the company dedicated to the commercial exploitation of EPO.

wowieeee............e! .........when wow is not enough...

so cyclists using epo is greg's fault..................?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_Securities

Mark L

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

i see the previous post came out a bit odd, with the pictures not fitting in the frame.

Let me summarize it, including findings from previous posts:

pre-76: Borysewicz, very decent former amateur cyclist, studies sports physiology in Warsaw, oversees Polish cyclists drugs programs with amphetamines and hormones on the menu

77: Borysewicz is contracted by Fraysse to help further US cycling on the Olympic stage.
Borysewicz discovers Lemond, allegedly takes him on as his son, sends him 'training' programs.

78: Lemond travels to Poland.

84: LA Games blooddoping program developed by Eddie B. is exposed.

85: allegations surface that Borysewicz previously took junior US athletes to Poland to learn how to auto-transfuse.

88: Eddie B. and Thom "EPO" Weisel hook up.

89/90(?): Lemond invests in Weisel's Montgomery Securities, the company dedicated to the commercial exploitation of EPO.

2003: Eddie B.'s house burns down. Lemond throws him a fundraiser. All LA 84 blooddopers are invited.

Here is a link to how peeps were able to help rebuild or contribute relief to the Father of Doping here in the USA.
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/latestnews/eddie-b-loses-home-to-socal-fires/#.VxZJlPkrJhE

 

[ScienceIsCool]

BTW, this is Greg's big "Polish Connection": http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

Quote: "And then one of my best friends, Kent Gordis (who wrote my book in '85) invited me to stay at his dad's house in Switzerland. We spent 2 months in Switzerland. Basically, the family; Kent, his mom and I, drove around Switzerland, France and Belgium and raced all the top junior races. I won the 2 races I entered in Switzerland, a big, big criterium in Embrach, near Zurich. It had all the top juniors racers in Switzerland there. Then a race in Sion-Sierre, near Crans Montana, near Italy. Won that race.

Went to France, won 2 other races and went to Belgium and won 4 or 5 other races. Then I flew to Poland and won 1 race and then got third overall in this big Czechoslovakian-Polish Eastern Block race. So that was my period when I realized that I could be as good as the Europeans. And that was at 17."

Note: in 1977, Lemond won 27 out of 47 races that he entered - *before* Eddy B was on the scene

John Swanson

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

BTW, this is Greg's big "Polish Connection": http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

Quote: "And then one of my best friends, Kent Gordis (who wrote my book in '85) invited me to stay at his dad's house in Switzerland. We spent 2 months in Switzerland. Basically, the family; Kent, his mom and I, drove around Switzerland, France and Belgium and raced all the top junior races. I won the 2 races I entered in Switzerland, a big, big criterium in Embrach, near Zurich. It had all the top juniors racers in Switzerland there. Then a race in Sion-Sierre, near Crans Montana, near Italy. Won that race.

Went to France, won 2 other races and went to Belgium and won 4 or 5 other races. Then I flew to Poland and won 1 race and then got third overall in this big Czechoslovakian-Polish Eastern Block race. So that was my period when I realized that I could be as good as the Europeans. And that was at 17."

Note: in 1977, Lemond won 27 out of 47 races that he entered - *before* Eddy B was on the scene

John Swanson

Eddy Merckx had no problem doping and apparently had buckets of talent.

Having buckets of talent does not stop a rider doping.

LeMond was extremely critical of Armstrong, the rest who doped are all a bit hazy when LeMond is asked to commet. Not good when thinking about LeMond as a cyclist. I thought the guy was the one who did not dope, but now i would not be surprised if he did what pretty much everyone else did.

Well done to sniper for not accepting LeMond was clean and continuing to dig, because I have not seen LeMond lambast Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Fignon and the rest of the dopers in the same way he did Armstrong.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

BTW, this is Greg's big "Polish Connection": http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

Quote: "And then one of my best friends, Kent Gordis (who wrote my book in '85) invited me to stay at his dad's house in Switzerland. We spent 2 months in Switzerland. Basically, the family; Kent, his mom and I, drove around Switzerland, France and Belgium and raced all the top junior races. I won the 2 races I entered in Switzerland, a big, big criterium in Embrach, near Zurich. It had all the top juniors racers in Switzerland there. Then a race in Sion-Sierre, near Crans Montana, near Italy. Won that race.

Went to France, won 2 other races and went to Belgium and won 4 or 5 other races. Then I flew to Poland and won 1 race and then got third overall in this big Czechoslovakian-Polish Eastern Block race. So that was my period when I realized that I could be as good as the Europeans. And that was at 17."

Note: in 1977, Lemond won 27 out of 47 races that he entered - *before* Eddy B was on the scene

John Swanson

Eddy Merckx had no problem doping and apparently had buckets of talent.

Having buckets of talent does not stop a rider doping.

LeMond was extremely critical of Armstrong, the rest who doped are all a bit hazy when LeMond is asked to commet. Not good when thinking about LeMond as a cyclist. I thought the guy was the one who did not dope, but now i would not be surprised if he did what pretty much everyone else did.

Well done to sniper for not accepting LeMond was clean and continuing to dig, because I have not seen LeMond lambast Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Fignon and the rest of the dopers in the same way he did Armstrong.

i think the problem is he straddled the epo revolution with no change in performance levels......in fact he got worse...hardly what you would expect from someone at the heart of the revolution...

 

[Hugh Januss]

Re: Re:

BTW, this is Greg's big "Polish Connection": http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

Quote: "And then one of my best friends, Kent Gordis (who wrote my book in '85) invited me to stay at his dad's house in Switzerland. We spent 2 months in Switzerland. Basically, the family; Kent, his mom and I, drove around Switzerland, France and Belgium and raced all the top junior races. I won the 2 races I entered in Switzerland, a big, big criterium in Embrach, near Zurich. It had all the top juniors racers in Switzerland there. Then a race in Sion-Sierre, near Crans Montana, near Italy. Won that race.

Went to France, won 2 other races and went to Belgium and won 4 or 5 other races. Then I flew to Poland and won 1 race and then got third overall in this big Czechoslovakian-Polish Eastern Block race. So that was my period when I realized that I could be as good as the Europeans. And that was at 17."

Note: in 1977, Lemond won 27 out of 47 races that he entered - *before* Eddy B was on the scene

John Swanson

Eddy Merckx had no problem doping and apparently had buckets of talent.

Having buckets of talent does not stop a rider doping.

LeMond was extremely critical of Armstrong, the rest who doped are all a bit hazy when LeMond is asked to commet. Not good when thinking about LeMond as a cyclist. I thought the guy was the one who did not dope, but now i would not be surprised if he did what pretty much everyone else did.

Well done to sniper for not accepting LeMond was clean and continuing to dig, because I have not seen LeMond lambast Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Fignon and the rest of the dopers in the same way he did Armstrong.

TBF the others you mention didn't make a sudden leap from "could be a pretty good classics rider" to dominant TDF winner, well maybe Indurain. Also as I recall none of the others went after LeMond's business and reputation for daring to doubt them either. So there's that.

 

[kwikki]

But let's be clear. LeMond didn't go after Armstrong because Armstrong threatened his business.

Armstrong went after Lemond, because LeMond threatened his business.

Only one of them was telling the truth and only one of them had nothing to gain personally from their actions. Sure, LeMond rolled over for a while, but not for long.

Why would Lemond go after Hinault et al? There is no point. They were no longer riding. It would be utterly blinkered to pretend that Lemond WASNT the major catalyst behind Armstrong's eventual exposure. Sure, Walsh helped, Kimmage went out of his way to help, but it was Lemond that lined up the ball for Landis to boot into the back of the net.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

BTW, this is Greg's big "Polish Connection": http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

Quote: "And then one of my best friends, Kent Gordis (who wrote my book in '85) invited me to stay at his dad's house in Switzerland. We spent 2 months in Switzerland. Basically, the family; Kent, his mom and I, drove around Switzerland, France and Belgium and raced all the top junior races. I won the 2 races I entered in Switzerland, a big, big criterium in Embrach, near Zurich. It had all the top juniors racers in Switzerland there. Then a race in Sion-Sierre, near Crans Montana, near Italy. Won that race.

Went to France, won 2 other races and went to Belgium and won 4 or 5 other races. Then I flew to Poland and won 1 race and then got third overall in this big Czechoslovakian-Polish Eastern Block race. So that was my period when I realized that I could be as good as the Europeans. And that was at 17."

Note: in 1977, Lemond won 27 out of 47 races that he entered - *before* Eddy B was on the scene

John Swanson

Eddy Merckx had no problem doping and apparently had buckets of talent.

Having buckets of talent does not stop a rider doping.

LeMond was extremely critical of Armstrong, the rest who doped are all a bit hazy when LeMond is asked to commet. Not good when thinking about LeMond as a cyclist. I thought the guy was the one who did not dope, but now i would not be surprised if he did what pretty much everyone else did.

Well done to sniper for not accepting LeMond was clean and continuing to dig, because I have not seen LeMond lambast Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Fignon and the rest of the dopers in the same way he did Armstrong.

TBF the others you mention didn't make a sudden leap from "could be a pretty good classics rider" to dominant TDF winner, well maybe Indurain. Also as I recall none of the others went after LeMond's business and reputation for daring to doubt them either. So there's that.

I dont think Armstrong went after LeMond's business, Trek and Armstrong were superceding LeMond's business with the TdF success aided by the cancer jesus figure that Armstrong was fast becoming. LeMond's comment about Armstrong working with Ferarri placed LeMond in the path of the TrekLance train making big bucks.

Doping is doping. Don't matter whether a rider had buckets of talent or not.

 

[kwikki]

Of course Armstrong went after Lemond's business.