LeMond III

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Context is key. He is clearly referring to PEDs and supplements, not medicine, so your point is moot.

I just lost you. (which could well be my misreading)
edit: just saw your edit. Will reply later.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Nitpicking here but there is more than 2 bolded statements. Anyhow I think everyone uses LeMonds words to suit their opinion. The REASON is LeMond himself. HE IS so dam inconsistent with his opinions on his self diagnoses for illness, his own health and cycling ups and downs.

Point taken. The statements that I have bolded regarding the horse's mouth argument.

Agreed about LeMond and his inconsistent statements. No argument there.

Personally, I find this commentary about LeMond the most plausible.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199601253340415

...so if the comments are more or less correct why did LeMond continue to explain his lose of form as a function of mitochondrial myopathy....

Cheers

When I read that it sounds like the most likely scenario is that he was misdiagnosed with mitochondrial myopathy because of otherwise explainable mitochondrial abnormalities from a muscle biopsy. His performance went off a cliff in 93/94 and this was probably an easy diagnosis to latch onto.

So I guess it's still unexplained why his performance cratered. Or it could be a combination of things plus the rise of EPO.

John Swanson

....the misdiagnosis part is entirely understandable as the condition is complex and not fully understood even today....but what I find a little strange is LeMond stuck to that diagnosis for quite a while, in fact for several years after the fact ( and because the long term outcomes of the condition are quite dire he should have been dealing with doctors to stay on top of it....so I guess what I'm saying is that misdiagnosis was continually misdiagnosed for a very long time which is kinda implausible...)....

Cheers

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

...

You missed my point entirely. I don't think LeMond is necessarily lying about his medical condition. A lot of people present false medical information because they don't have the requisite level of understanding to adequately explain themselves or they were misdiagnosed.

fair enough.

But is his 'level of [medical] understanding' that bad that he doesn't even know the difference between a vitamin pill and flu-vaccin injections? (see second part of this post: viewtopic.php?p=1914773#p1914773)

And why would he claim not to have done a single blood test during two years after the shooting. He said he had the first one during the Giro 1989, which for someone with his entourage and medical history doesn't make sense at all.
And in two other interviews he contradicts this with statements which, in turn, contradict each other. So there are three versions in total about when he had his blood tested.
This and several other inconsistencies in his background story (e.g. wrt when he allegedly first 'learned' about EPO) really do not have much (if anything) to do with what you call "having the requisite level of [medical] understanding to adequately explain oneselve".

If he has something to hide and is lying or deliberately not telling the whole truth, such inconsistencies wrt crucial issues make perfect sense.

sniper..i don't know lemond and have limited exposure to any of his interviews however I did watch the lecture he gave on doping...its on t'interweb...whilst very interesting he could easily be accused of rambling..

You seem to be applying a 'froome' standard of questioning on him when we know that the badzilla was specifically made up to explain a dramatic change...that is why the inconsistencies are important with Froome..


if lemond could have envisaged that someone would be would be pouring over his every word looking for inconsistencies he would be a very rich man sitting atop and tech empire in silicon valley rather than an ex pro cyclist...

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
if lemond could have envisaged that someone would be would be pouring over his every word looking for inconsistencies he would be a very rich man sitting atop and tech empire in silicon valley rather than an ex pro cyclist...

I'm not necessarily looking for inconsistencies. They present themselves abundantly as one tries to read up on his illnesses/infections/allergies/anemia/etc.

You seem to be applying a 'froome' standard of questioning on him when we know that the badzilla was specifically made up to explain a dramatic change...that is why the inconsistencies are important with Froome.

Rather a 'Froome' standard of questioning than no questioning at all.
And yes, I think there are some interesting parallels between them, the abrupt transformation being one.

Big difference is that Froome didn't have what Lemond had at age 15: a (very) ambitious father who himself was a cyclist and a Mexican cycling coach who was also a fixer ("soigneur" in cycling jargon). Neither did Froome have what Lemond had between age 15 and age 18: structural guidance from one of world's best-(most-well-)funded Olympic Training Centres, one where PED-experimentation was explicitly encouraged, which included mentoring from people like Eddie B, Carl Leusenkamp, Ed Burke and Fredrick Hagerman, all of whom have been involved with (blood) doping one way or another.
That's state of the art guidance.
Froome meanwhile had to make do with the guy on his right (David Kinjah):

(that is, until he met that nice lady on the left)

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Problem: hearing of the Rudy Dhaenens rumour, a third hand rumour by the way

Reactiong: building a theory while disregarding everything that could possibly damage the theory

Solution: Greg LeMond was epo/blood/hormone doping from as early as fifteen year old, making Froome look like a schoolboy

Hegel says hi.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Problem: hearing of the Rudy Dhaenens rumour, a third hand rumour by the way

Confirmed by anonymous 1990 whistleblower and rumored not just by Dhaenens. Rumor makes perfect sense in light of Lemond's medical history, mid-Giro transformation, collaboration with Vanmol, and connections to Weisel/Montgommery/Eddie. It's far from proven, but I don't see any reason to not take it seriously.

Reactiong: building a theory

The theory "Lemond doped" doesn't need to be built. It logically presented itself from the moment he started beating doped-to-the-gills cyclists from more traditional cycling countries. "Lemond doped" is the null hypothesis. A bit like "Sagan dopes". How? We don't really know. But the fact that we don't know has no bearing on the plausibility of the hypothesis "Sagan dopes".

while disregarding everything that could possibly damage the theory

Can you be more specific? (a) What could damage the null hypothesis and (b) what have I (and/or others who find the hypothesis plausible) disregarded? Anything besides third hand rumors?

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

Problem: hearing of the Rudy Dhaenens rumour, a third hand rumour by the way

Reactiong: building a theory while disregarding everything that could possibly damage the theory

Solution: Greg LeMond was epo/blood/hormone doping from as early as fifteen year old, making Froome look like a schoolboy

Hegel says hi.

What you describe has nothing to do with Hegel. It appears to be a vulgarization of a vulgarization, or a vulgarization of a misapprehension, to wit, problem/reaction/solution equals thesis/antithesis/synthesis equals Hegel. But, a) the two formulations are not equal, and, b) the second formulation (thesis/antithesis/synthesis) was not made by Hegel but predates him.

Somehow this misunderstanding and misattribution has filtered its way into the crowd of internet hobbyists who confabulate and opine about Illuminati and New World Order conspiracies, which supposedly somehow have Hegel at their root. The level of lunacy and ignorance required for this could certainly lead to one to believe that a Grand Tour bicycle race could be won paniagua, but like such a belief it doesn't correspond to reality, or history, or knowledge of either.

It isn't Hegel saying hi in what you say, but Alex Jones.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

Problem: hearing of the Rudy Dhaenens rumour, a third hand rumour by the way

Confirmed by anonymous 1990 whistleblower and rumored not just by Dhaenens. Rumor makes perfect sense in light of Lemond's medical history, mid-Giro transformation, collaboration with Vanmol, and connections to Weisel/Montgommery/Eddie. It's far from proven, but I don't see any reason to not take it seriously.

1990 anonimous whistleblower? Where?

According to the Dhaenens rumour LeMond introduced epo into the peloton: again, when?

Vanmol: was Esosfina also drugged by him?

Weisel; really not interesting at all

Eddy B.; well, he coached him for a while before he went to Cyrille I guess, so, he must have doped him too? See Vanmol.

And, Maxiton, dont be a smarty when what I was stating was more than obivious, dont have to explain Hegel here, just oversimplify it...

 

[Zypherov]

Mitochondrial DNA and Disease: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199601253340415

We were quite surprised that the remarkable review of mitochondrial DNA and disease by Johns (Sept. 7 issue)1 ended with the assumption that the American cyclist Greg LeMond retired in 1994 because of a “mitochondrial myopathy.” The genetics of mitochondrial DNA still present several enigmas, and certain mutations can be present at birth and become clinically manifest only in adulthood.2 Nevertheless, we think that the ATP-generating capacity of Greg LeMond's muscles should have fallen below their energy threshold well before 1993, the year of his last Tour de France race. The mitochondrial genome has an underdeveloped DNA-repair system and is liable to mutations provoked by exogenous as well as endogenous factors. So far, the only acquired mitochondrial myopathy identified is the one caused by long-term zidovudine therapy,3 and obviously, such an abnormality is not responsible for this champion's pathologic process.

Having had the privilege to follow Greg medically during certain of his races, we are very doubtful about the diagnosis of mitochondrial myopathy. Greg won the Tour de France three times (in 1986, 1989, and 1990). Each Tour de France includes at least 21 consecutive days of racing. The energy expenditure per day is estimated to be between 8000 and 9000 calories, especially when the course includes roads that wind up and down through the Alps and the Pyrenees.

A person with a genuine mitochondrial myopathy could not finish even one day of such a race and would not be selected to compete in this fantastic sporting event, which involves the 200 best cyclists in the world. Recently, Valberg et al.4 reported that, after running a mere five minutes, an Arabian mare had numerous abnormal mitochondria and complex I insufficiency (NADH coenzyme Q reductase) on muscle biopsy. It is very probable that Greg LeMond had a few modified mitochondria in his lower limbs, as we have found in other champion cyclists, especially those hampered by severe cramps.5 In addition, it is well known that abnormal mitochondria can be observed by electron-microscopical examination of muscle-biopsy specimens from patients with many disorders other than mitochondrial myopathy.5 Even though we know that age can reveal a mitochondrial myopathy,2 we think that such is not the case for Greg LeMond. He won his third Tour de France in 1990, and as enthusiastic fans of cycling races, we can hardly believe that such a gifted champion was already suffering from a mitochondrial myopathy. We think that all those who have won the Tour de France might have their mothers to thank for providing them with extraordinarily powerful mitochondria.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

1990 anonimous whistleblower? Where?

http://postimg.org/image/vgxgqxt7f/
but point taken that this article doesn't speak of Lemond "introducing" epo.

According to the Dhaenens rumour LeMond introduced epo into the peloton: again, when?

*if* he ever used EPO, I honestly don't know when he started, and whether or not he really introduced it or merely was one of several early users.
Btw, I have no idea when Lance started using EPO either. Or Sagan. Or Froome.

Vanmol: was Esosfina also drugged by him?

Why do you ask? Are there EPO rumors about esafofina as well?

Weisel; really not interesting at all

Not to you maybe, which is fair enough.
To anyone interested in the first EPO users, Weisel is of obvious interest.

Eddy B.; well, he coached him for a while before he went to Cyrille I guess, so, he must have doped him too?

I honestly have no idea if Eddie himself ever doped anybody.

Fact is Lemond's autobiography is full of praise for Eddie and his 'scientific' training methods. Fact is also that Eddie arranged for Lemond to go race in Poland in 1978. A probability is that US junior cyclists were introduced to blood doping in Poland as early as in 1974 ( (see Van Haute's case discused in the US Cycling Scene thread) .
Fact is that Eddie had experience with doping cyclists prior to coming to the States. If one reads between the lines of Wheelmen, one can arguably infer that Eddie not only had experience with, but had a hand in, doping Polish cyclists, including Szurkowski. But I will not insist on that, as it has little bearing on the wider scheme of things. Eddie is furthermore accused of trying to ruin Inga Thompson's carreer after she refused to blood dope, and as you well know there are many other things concerning Eddie in the post-1984 period. (For instance, it's not difficult to imagine why Weisel hired him.)

to be continued.

 

[sniper]

Now, an arguably much more interesting fact relating to Eddie B is that he became the first US cycling coach right at the initiation of Jimmy Carter's so-called Amateur Sport Act in 1978 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_Sports_Act_of_1978). This was basically a sports funding initiative from the US government with the purpose of putting an end to the sportive domination of certain (communist) European countries, and with an explicit focus on sports science and sports medicine (more on that below).
For that same purpose (and funded by said Amateur Sport Act) the first US Olympic Training Centre was founded in 1977 in Squaw Valley (henceforth OTC).
Eddie B. had his own office in the OTC in Squaw Valley already in 1978.

Heavily involved in the foundation of the OTC were

(a) the previously introduced Dr. Frederick "Fritz" Hagerman, an exercise physiologist who experimented with anabolic steroids in a study published in 1975, did cardio-respiratory conditioning tests with adolescents in a 1976 study (with reference to Ekblom's study on blood doping), and worked mainly, but not exclusively, with oarsmen. (I cited him previously as he did physiological testing on Lemond and Heiden in the late 70s.)

(b) a certain Dr. Irving Dardik, a cardiovascular surgeon and member of the USOC Medical Committee who in 2005 was painfully exposed as a being a "quack" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Dardik). I'll come back to him below.

(c) some others who are, for now, of lesser interest.

As you well know, Lemond - and Heiden, for that matter - were training in that very US Olympic Training Center in Squaw Valley in the period between 1978 and 1980.

Now, in 1976 already, the same Dr. Dardik, one year prior to opening the OTC, is on the record stating the desire to "test the effects of blood doping on American athletes" (source: http://www.johngleaves.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Manufactured-Article.pdf, p. 7).

The need to do physiological testing with anabolic steroids is also explicitly mentioned as an aim of the OTC in the following article from 1977 featuring Dardik, Hagerman, and a computer analyst Gideon Ariel: http://www.arielnet.com/articles/show/adi-pub-01076/md-aims-to-imppove-nation-s-health-using-olympic-athletes-as-walking-fitness-labs

I will post more details up later when I have the info organized.
From what I can tell, what it seems to come down to is that when the OTC was founded in 1977, its explicit aims were to close the gap between the US and the communist countries (and West Germany) in terms of sports medicine and science, with a strong - sometime explicit, other times implicit - focus on doping (in the broadest sense of the word, and including blood doping).
Right then and there in the period when Greg Lemond and Eric Heiden are training at the OTC under the guidance of Hagerman and Eddie and others, and are rapidly emerging as miracle athletes.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

snipped for brevity

(a) the previously introduced Dr. Frederick "Fritz" Hagerman, a hematologist who experimented with anabolic steroids in a study published in 1975, did cardio-respiratory conditioning tests with adolescents in a 1976 study (with reference to Ekblom's study on blood doping), and worked mainly, but not exclusively, with oarsmen. (I cited him previously as he did physiological testing on Lemond and Heiden in the late 70s.)

Except that he wasn't a hematologist. He had a BS in Physical Education and PhD (not an MD or DO) in Exercise physiology. Considering that you have admitted to not reading the 1975 paper, I question how many conclusions you should draw from it. Hematology board certification requires an MD with a specialty in internal medicine.

viewtopic.php?p=1914417#p1914417

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Except that he wasn't a hematologist. He had a BS in Physical Education and PhD (not an MD or DO) in Exercise physiology.

thanks for the correction (edited my post accordingly).
In any case, he's a specialist in various kinds of cardio-related fields of research, including the effects of altitude training on athletic performance.
Maybe you could fill us in on his scientific/professional profile a bit, as I'm not qualified to describe it/him and will likely get caught up in using wrong terminology.

Considering that you have admitted to not reading the 1975 paper, I question how many conclusions you should draw from it.

I'm not drawing any conclusions from the 1975 paper, except that he was doing physiological testing with anabolic steroids.
I read a quite comprehensive summary of the study earlier today (will look for it and post it up later if I find it). Iirc, his test subjects were weightlifters in their early twenties.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

...
Except that he wasn't a hematologist. He had a BS in Physical Education and PhD (not an MD or DO) in Exercise physiology.

thanks for the correction (edited my post accordingly).
In any case, he's a specialist in various kinds of cardio-related fields of research, including the effects of altitude training on athletic performance.
Maybe you could fill us in on his scientific/professional profile a bit, as I'm not qualified to describe it/him and will likely get caught up in using wrong terminology.

Considering that you have admitted to not reading the 1975 paper, I question how many conclusions you should draw from it.

I'm not drawing any conclusions from the 1975 paper, except that he was doing physiological testing with anabolic steroids.
I read a quite comprehensive summary of the study earlier today (will look for it and post it up later if I find it). Iirc, his test subjects were weightlifters in their early twenties.

Don't bother. I found the journal in our medical school archives. I will scan it and circulate to those who are interested when I get an opportunity.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Don't bother. I found the journal in our medical school archives. I will scan it and circulate to those who are interested when I get an opportunity.

well i just bothered and you find a brief description here, for instance: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2484526/pdf/jcca00057-0029.pdf
NB: his name is misspelled there as Hogerman.
Five weightlifters, three on anabolics, two without (sorry, copy-paste doesn't work from that PDF).

A scan would be greatly appreciated!

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Quoting sniper: "Fact is Lemond's autobiography is full of praise for Eddie and his 'scientific' training methods. Fact is also that Eddie arranged for Lemond to go race in Poland in 1978. A probability is that US junior cyclists were introduced to blood doping in Poland as early as in 1974 ( (see Van Haute's case discused in the US Cycling Scene thread) .
Fact is that Eddie had experience with doping cyclists prior to coming to the States. If one reads between the lines of Wheelmen, one can arguably infer that Eddie not only had experience with, but had a hand in, doping Polish cyclists, including Szurkowski. But I will not insist on that, as it has little bearing on the wider scheme of things. Eddie is furthermore accused of trying to ruin Inga Thompson's carreer after she refused to blood dope, and as you well know there are many other things concerning Eddie in the post-1984 period. (For instance, it's not difficult to imagine why Weisel hired him.)"


Fact is, Eddy B. really did introduce brand new training techniques. Those techniques got results and that combined with a nice demeanor brought a lot of praise for Eddy B. from a ton of riders. To be sure, Eddy also advocated for certain types of doping but you have first-hand testimony from the riders that he didn't push them to dope.

Eddy B. did not send Greg to Poland. Greg did one race in Poland as part of a series of races he did in Europe, based out of a friend's house in Switzerland if I remember correctly.

And here's something for you: "My first – and only – conversation with Eddie B. was: “You strong like horse, you work for Rebecca.” (Eddie Borysewicz, former US Olympic Cycling and Polish national Team coach, telling Inga to ride in support of then leading national rider Rebecca Twigg in the Olympic road race – editors.)"
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/06/news/perspectives-doping-pro-cycling-inga-thompson_333513#QLJdMDz5LpffW10M.99

I'm not sure which part of those 8 words killed her career...

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re:

...Eddy B. did not send Greg to Poland. Greg did one race in Poland as part of a series of races he did in Europe, based out of a friend's house in Switzerland if I remember correctly.

In Lemond's autobiography (the one with Kent Gordis) it says Eddie organized their participation in the race. Which, if you ask me, makes pretty good sense. Eddie would have had all the contacts there, so no need to doubt Lemond's words. Whether that counts as "sending" or not is a matter of taste. In the post you just quoted I said "arranged", which seems to be a fair choice of words judging from Lemond's autobiography.

edit: thanks for reposting the link to Inga Thompson's interview. Anyone who reads it will be able to make up their own minds about Eddie B.
As to your suggestion that some riders have vouched for Eddie: you'll no doubt remember that several riders vouched for Ferrari, for Del Moral, for Pepe Marti, or for Geert Leinders. It really means very little.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

...Eddy B. did not send Greg to Poland. Greg did one race in Poland as part of a series of races he did in Europe, based out of a friend's house in Switzerland if I remember correctly.

In Lemond's autobiography (the one with Kent Gordis) it says Eddie organized their participation in the race. Which, if you ask me, makes pretty good sense. Eddie would have had all the contacts there, so no need to doubt Lemond's words. Whether that counts as "sending" or not is a matter of taste. In the post you just quoted I said "arranged", which seems to be a fair choice of words judging from Lemond's autobiography.

edit: thanks for reposting the link to Inga Thompson's interview. Anyone who reads it will be able to make up their own minds about Eddie B.
As to your suggestion that some riders have vouched for Eddie: you'll no doubt remember that several riders vouched for Ferrari, for Del Moral, for Pepe Marti, or for Geert Leinders. It really means very little.

Inga Thompson had little to no interaction with Eddy B. She refused to blood dope at the 84 Olympics (17 of the 24 riders refused) and found it morally outrageous. A justified reaction in my opinion. She felt "run out of the sport" (worked too hard) as retribution for refusing to dope.

But here's the thing. Sixteen other riders refused. That's a large majority of the Olympic squad. I find it hard to believe that Eddy B would toss 71% of his top talent for any reason.

I'd like to ask you a couple questions: What is Steve Tilford's stance on doping and the riders who dope? Do you think Steve Tilford is a doper?

Here's Steve's first hand account of his time with Eddy B. http://stevetilford.com/2013/02/19/eddie-b/

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

So, keywords: OTC, Squaw Valley

Fraysse thought that if Borysewicz could have such great results with the North Jersey Bicycle Club in such a short period of time, he might be able to boost the performance of the country’s Olympic cyclists, too. Fraysse and Borysewicz came up with an idea: They’d put together a junior training camp for Olympic hopefuls in Squaw Valley, California, which had hosted the 1960 Winter Olympics and whose Olympic training facilities were free for use in the summer months. The camp was advertised largely through word of mouth, at bike shops and cycling clubs.
...
When Borysewicz showed up in Squaw Valley, he saw very few riders he thought were special. But there was one fourteen-year-old who had been driven up to the camp by his father from his hometown of Reno, about an hour away. The kid was much younger than the others (...).
His name was Greg LeMond.

source: Wheelmen

Lemond: My first VO2 Max test was up in Squaw Valley on a treadmill and I had a 79 VO2 Max non-specific sport. http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

HAGERMAN: In the late 1970s Ed Burke and I studied both Eric Heiden and Greg Lemond at the US Olympic Training Center at Squaw Valley. They performed so well on all of our tests, both aerobic and anaerobic... https://books.google.pl/books?id=AkgQAQAAMAAJ&q=hagerman+heiden+lemond+squaw+valley&dq=hagerman+heiden+lemond+squaw+valley&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH7dyQ7MPMAhUECSwKHQ5SCsYQ6AEILzAA

So, Lemond and Hagerman (and of course Dr. Dardik) at the OTC in Squaw Valley, late 1970s.

From 1977, article about the newly founded OTC:

Across the hall, exercise physiologist Fritz Hagerman is setting up the latest gadget, a newly arrived pulmonary function testing machine donated by a West German company, the Jaeger Corp. Kayakers from Los Angeles drift in to get on a stationary bicycle and pedal at fixed rates while breathing through a tube connected to the six-foot-tall machine. The device measures how much oxygen the athlete uses for a fixed amount of work.

It isn't hooked up yet, but when it is, Hagerman explains, they expect to find that the more an athlete trains, the more his oxygen-using capacity will increase; and at the same time, he will use the oxygen more economically, producing less fatigue (in the form of lactic acid buildup).

What else they might learn, Hagerman doesn't know yet. It's all just getting started; the Olympic sports medicine program is still in its infancy, Dr. Dardik says.

Exercise physiologist Fritz Haaerman [sic] acquaints kayake J Mary Gilman with a machine that measures pulmonary function.
...
In another building on the training center grounds, teenaged girl swimmers tested their leg strength in exhausting 90-second bouts with a stress-testing machine, accompanied by shouts of encouragement from fellow swimmers and the two young men running the EKGlike machine.

And maybe djpbaltimore (or anybody with the appropriate knowledge) can confirm or correct me when I assume Dardik is implying the use of blood transfusions here:

Dr. Dardik has set up a foundation in Englewood, N.J., using Olympic athletes to work "one on one" with juvenile diabetics. With the help of the American Diabetes Assn. and the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, diabetic kids (along with children with other illnesses, including psychiatrically disturbed kids) were being taken through fitness training programs conducted by the Olympic athletes.

The point was to develop in the kids better cardiovascular condition, to reduce their otherwise elevated chances for arteriosclerosis later in life, he said.

BUT THE SIDE effects had been equally worthwhile: the youngsters' insulin needs were lowered sharply, for example, and all of them felt better, looked better, and displayed much greater selfconfidence as a result of the Olympic fitness program.

Now he has bigger plans. He wants to expand the diabetic fitness program, and he's planning (with the assistance of the U.S. Olympic Committee) to set up as many as six sports medicine institutes around the country. One is now being developed in Colorado Springs, Colo., with the cooperation of the Air Force Academy, and another will be set up in the East next year.

 

[sniper]

More literally jawdropping stuff from that article about the OTC in Squaw Valley, 1977, featuring Dardik and Ariel:

"We in the United States have not gotten together our sports medicine program compared to other countries," Dr. Dardik said. "I recently visited West Germany, and there they have orthopedists and cardiologists who specialize in sports medicine.

"We should be developing not just injury treatment methods, but preventive medicine as well. Biomechanics, for example, can show how a wrong movement can result in a trauma over a period of time. We should be talking about nutrition, exercise physiology, the psychology of sports.

"WHEN I WAS A physician at the last Olympic games, athletes would come up to me with questions about training, about nutrition, about drugs. That's what gave me the idea to talk to the U.S. Olympic Committee about setting up the institutes. There are so many things we don't know about."

Anabolic steroids, for example-the hottest question in Olympic sports right now. Both Dr. Dardik and Dr. Ariel testify that use of the strength-increasing hormones is widespread in this country, and universal in some other countries, though neither physicians nor athletes know how dangerous they might be.

"In the last Olympic trials," Dr. Ariel said, "if you were in the weight events (shot put, discus throw, and hammer throw), you wouldn't even make the trials if you weren't taking steroids. In the shot put, the difference between those on steroids and those not was as if one group was putting 16-pound shots, and the other was putting 40pound shots."
...
Dr. DARDIK isn't sure steroid use is that widespread, but it is certainly a problem. "If an athlete asks me, should I take steroids, I would say no. But we don't really have enough information on it one way or the other. People are manipulating their bodies, and we don't know what the long-term effects are."

That's a result of the apparent lack of interest in sports medicine in the United States, he and Dr. Ariel believe.

"The technology is there," Dr. Ariel remarked. "This country has the talent, big corporations could provide all the equipment and funds we need, just as a donation."

He pointed out that there were plenty of companies in the United States who make pulmonary function equipment like the one recently donated to the training center-but the one donated came from a West German firm, given to the U.S. Olympic Committee.

"People think athletics is an art. But it's really a science," Dr. Ariel said. "If nobody cared whether you won a gold medal or not, if you weren't competing against others, then maybe you could call it art.

 

[sniper]

I'm really not sure what to highlight here.
More astonishing reading from the same article:

Dr. Dardik also helped start this year a scholarship program for Olympic athletes who are now in or want to go to medical school. "I'm looking at some of these athletes as being the leaders in sports medicine in the future," he explains. There are about a dozen appl; cants already, and they will expand t. J program as donations to the fund increase.

As to the boldface: Eirc Heiden says hi.

...
It probably won't be very difficult to convince him. Dr. Dardik, with his constant plans for bigger and better Olympics-related projects, has a way of convincing people to support his ideas.

His commitment to the Olympic program is almost religious in its fervor, not because he's just a sports nut, but because he believes "the Olympics symbolize not just the physical side of man, but a combination of the spirit, the mind, the ethics, and the morality of mankind, and bring it all together in sports."

So for the record, that's the same Dr. Dardik who in 1976, as a member of the USOC Medical Committee, plead for "testing the effects of blood transfusions on American athletes" (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09523367.2014.958667?journalCode=fhsp20) and who in 2005 had his license withdrawn after deliberately having mislead a MS patient to believe that he could cure her...in return for 100,000 dollar. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Dardik)
So that guy was the driving force begind the foundation of the first US Olympic Training Centre in Squaw Valley in 1977.

(more Dardik 'fun facts' in that wikipedia file concerning cold fusion(!), and here an interesting remark on him as well: http://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/dopes.htm)

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

And maybe djpbaltimore (or anybody with the appropriate knowledge) can confirm or correct me when I assume Dardik is implying the use of blood transfusions here:

Dr. Dardik has set up a foundation in Englewood, N.J., using Olympic athletes to work "one on one" with juvenile diabetics. With the help of the American Diabetes Assn. and the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, diabetic kids (along with children with other illnesses, including psychiatrically disturbed kids) were being taken through fitness training programs conducted by the Olympic athletes.

The point was to develop in the kids better cardiovascular condition, to reduce their otherwise elevated chances for arteriosclerosis later in life, he said.

BUT THE SIDE effects had been equally worthwhile: the youngsters' insulin needs were lowered sharply, for example, and all of them felt better, looked better, and displayed much greater selfconfidence as a result of the Olympic fitness program.

Now he has bigger plans. He wants to expand the diabetic fitness program, and he's planning (with the assistance of the U.S. Olympic Committee) to set up as many as six sports medicine institutes around the country. One is now being developed in Colorado Springs, Colo., with the cooperation of the Air Force Academy, and another will be set up in the East next year.

For Whom? The kids or the Olympians? It is possible these were set up in the years of sham-ateur athletics and those institutes were ways to funnel money into athlete's hands to compete with state sponsored full-time amateurs of the Eastern Bloc. Or maybe just good PR like the Play 60 movement nowadays that the NFL is pushing. Don't see how this or Dr. Dardick pertains to LeMond.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
For Whom? The kids or the Olympians? It is possible these were set up in the years of sham-ateur athletics and those institutes were ways to funnel money into athlete's hands to compete with state sponsored full-time amateurs of the Eastern Bloc.

thanks.

Don't see how this or Dr. Dardick pertains to LeMond.

That part on diabetes might be nothing. I'm not qualified to assess it, hence I asked.

I outlined the connection between Dardik, Hagerman, Burke, Eddie B, the OTC in Squaw Valley, and Greg Lemond (and Eric Heiden) as clearly as I could, for instance in the post you quoted (viewtopic.php?p=1915443#p1915443) and also here: viewtopic.php?p=1915300#p1915300
I don't see what's unclear there, it's all pretty self-expanatory, but if something still is unclear, let me know, maybe I can expand.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Squaw Valley!

 

[blutto]

Re:

Mitochondrial DNA and Disease: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199601253340415

We were quite surprised that the remarkable review of mitochondrial DNA and disease by Johns (Sept. 7 issue)1 ended with the assumption that the American cyclist Greg LeMond retired in 1994 because of a “mitochondrial myopathy.” The genetics of mitochondrial DNA still present several enigmas, and certain mutations can be present at birth and become clinically manifest only in adulthood.2 Nevertheless, we think that the ATP-generating capacity of Greg LeMond's muscles should have fallen below their energy threshold well before 1993, the year of his last Tour de France race. The mitochondrial genome has an underdeveloped DNA-repair system and is liable to mutations provoked by exogenous as well as endogenous factors. So far, the only acquired mitochondrial myopathy identified is the one caused by long-term zidovudine therapy,3 and obviously, such an abnormality is not responsible for this champion's pathologic process.

Having had the privilege to follow Greg medically during certain of his races, we are very doubtful about the diagnosis of mitochondrial myopathy. Greg won the Tour de France three times (in 1986, 1989, and 1990). Each Tour de France includes at least 21 consecutive days of racing. The energy expenditure per day is estimated to be between 8000 and 9000 calories, especially when the course includes roads that wind up and down through the Alps and the Pyrenees.

A person with a genuine mitochondrial myopathy could not finish even one day of such a race and would not be selected to compete in this fantastic sporting event, which involves the 200 best cyclists in the world. Recently, Valberg et al.4 reported that, after running a mere five minutes, an Arabian mare had numerous abnormal mitochondria and complex I insufficiency (NADH coenzyme Q reductase) on muscle biopsy. It is very probable that Greg LeMond had a few modified mitochondria in his lower limbs, as we have found in other champion cyclists, especially those hampered by severe cramps.5 In addition, it is well known that abnormal mitochondria can be observed by electron-microscopical examination of muscle-biopsy specimens from patients with many disorders other than mitochondrial myopathy.5 Even though we know that age can reveal a mitochondrial myopathy,2 we think that such is not the case for Greg LeMond. He won his third Tour de France in 1990, and as enthusiastic fans of cycling races, we can hardly believe that such a gifted champion was already suffering from a mitochondrial myopathy. We think that all those who have won the Tour de France might have their mothers to thank for providing them with extraordinarily powerful mitochondria.

...so what exactly is the deal....the comments above seem to indicate that mitochondrial myopathy was not likely to have affected LeMond....and yet this idea was being "sold" by LeMond long after 93 ( he even went to the trouble of speaking to mito support groups )....so was this an elaborate charade ? because medical personnel can't be that incompetent for that long ( symptoms would start develop into some very serious issues...blindness, deafness, lot of muscle control and balance are biggies here )....and if so, what exactly was this charade hiding...

.....seems the longer we look at this the more correct sniper seems to get....and that this myopathy may well have been drug related...or an entirely new myopathy disease called LeMondiosis.....

Cheers