LeMond III

[sniper]

The fact that you view nick777's in isolation doesn't bode well for your analytical skills.

So nick777, an anon poster on an internet forum, was just making all that stuff up, inventing that doctor, or at the very least lying about what the doctor told him. Scraping the bottom of the barrel indeed.
And of course Boogerd was making that rumor up too.
Ow, and Dhaenens too.
And wait, Floyd and Lance, just bitter and angry, too.
And don't get me started about Max Testa. Bitter jealous loser with an axe to grind. In a one on one telephone convo ffs.

That tinfoil hat suits you well!

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

The fact that you view nick777's in isolation doesn't bode well for your analytical skills.

So nick777, an anon poster on an internet forum, was just making all that stuff up, inventing that doctor, or at the very least lying about what the doctor told him. Scraping the bottom of the barrel indeed.
And of course Boogerd was making that rumor up too.
Ow, and Dhaenens too.
And wait, Floyd and Lance, just bitter and angry, too.
And don't get me started about Max Testa. Bitter jealous loser with an axe to grind. In a one on one telephone convo ffs.

That tinfoil hat suits you well!

Yes, anon posters on the internet do not count as any sort of evidence as they can make anything up. That is kinda irrerefutable. You go to anyone saying you heard something on a internet forum and present it as evidence, you will be laughed at.

We have been over the rumour thing a million times before. It is more than clear that the rumours started based on the same conjecture that is in that Dutch newpaper article. EPO was produced in the US, was expensive and came into circulation around 89 when LeMond bounced back. It is clear that people jumped to conclusions based on nothing but conjecture and thus started a rumour, no doubt aided by PDM/Dhaenans who did have reason for being pissed at LeMond. The fact that this was a rumour does not make it true regardless of who repeated it afterward. A false rumour is still a false rumour. Before, I gave the example of Floyds blood being poured down the toilet because Lance was pissed at him. It wasnt true but hey it was repeated lots of times so it must be true, right.

The fact that this has now been repeated to you numerous times and you still dont seem to get it shows how much of a troll you are.

 

[sniper]

Yikes, your logic is all over the place.
So to get this straight, anonymous people on forums can make anything up.
But non-anonymous people cannot?
Therefore we should reject everything anonymous people say, whilst accepting everything non-anonymous people say?

Race Radio won't be amused.

And you're still not getting the 'evidence' thingie are you.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

Yikes, your logic is all over the place.
So to get this straight, anonymous people on forums can make anything up.
But non-anonymous people cannot?
Therefore we should reject everything anonymous people say, whilst accepting everything non-anonymous people say?

Race Radio won't be amused.

And you're still not getting the 'evidence' thingie are you.

There is a thing called accountability, if someone lies in public, they can be held to that lie e.g Lance or proven to be be a fraud. Not so much on the internet where anyone can claim anything with no way of verifying the truth. That fact you dont get that shows how dumb this whole thing has become.





Any

 

[sniper]

You don't look at, or judge, statements in isolation. You just don't.
Well, except you do. Which indeed neatly

shows how dumb this whole thing has become.

But you're right. Race Radio was making all that stuff about Lance up. After all, on the internet anyone can claim anything with no way of verifying the truth. Period.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

You don't look at, or judge, statements in isolation. You just don't.
Well, except you do. Which indeed neatly

shows how dumb this whole thing has become.

But you're right. Race Radio was making all that stuff about Lance up. After all, on the internet anyone can claim anything with no way of verifying the truth. Period.

Race Radio showed time and again that they were in tune with what was happening as they were consistently proven correct. There is a world of difference between one spurious claim that nobody has anything to back up with and someone being proven correct repeatedly. Regardless, what Race Radio posted still would not have stood up in public and they had a public twitter account and I think RR was known to many people.

The fact that you are focusing on what an anon poster claims rather than addressing the issue at hand shows just how little you have got. Now, how about addressing the accuracy of those rumours, can you show they were based on some form of reality and not just made up.

Can you explain why the rumours are likely to be any more true than those concerning Floyd having his blood poured down the team bus toilet.

 

[sniper]

sigh. the only one focusing on the anon poster is you. you singled him out, started discrediting him.
whereas I repeatedly told you not to single him out.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

sigh. the only one focusing on the anon poster is you. you singled him out, started discrediting him.
whereas I repeatedly told you not to single him out.

Once you bring anon posters into your "evidence", then it is open to ridicule. You are now trying to focus on that rather than address other issues.

If a poster comes in here and says they know for a fact that Chris Froome is clean, that is sufficent to put forward as evidence that Chris Froome is clean and you would accept that?, because this is essentially what you are saying. Are you really that dumb?

 

[sniper]

you just cemented my point, for which i owe you gratitude.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

you just cemented my point, for which i owe you gratitude.

I think it is clear to anyone with a shred of intelligence you dont actually have a point other than to troll. You just repeatedly ignore any questions asked and then claim you have made some ridiculous point.

 

[sniper]

agreed, and nice talking to you too.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

...
Your reconstruction of these events...

i'm not reconstructing anything. I posted this: viewtopic.php?p=2044643#p2044643
And it triggered the same indignant responses as usual first from a guy who is now permabanned, then from pcmg76, then from scienceiscool and then from you. Why the indignation? Honest question.
The double standards here are pretty ugly. One for Sky, USPS, Contador, "Mig-hell" Indurain, etc. And one for Lemond.

a young-earth creationist trying to poke holes in evolution by digging up and over-blowing any tiny apparent hole in the theory, somehow missing the forest for the trees.

Chapeau. That's almost Brailsford-esque, Red. Lemond winning the TdF clean is now equated to evolution.
Shedding doubt on that claim is equated to creationism.

It's not only Brailsfordesque, it's also the world upsidedown. If the vast majority of grand tour winners doped to win it, it's up to you to show us why Lemond is the knight in shining armour. And from the looks of it you're not getting very far with that. Words from the horse's mouth as facts.
Now that's creationism.

And when I ask you for a link to something that could in fact back up your claims, you basically say 'go look for it yourself' and 'well, i've read it, isn't that enough?':

I wish I did have time to dig it all up, but Google is your friend. But you know that, and you do know the stories are both out there, I've personally read them dozens of times.

Got it. Red has read it, end of. No need for any kind of evidence here. It's Lemond. It's evolution.

Maybe he reported what Testa supposedly said because he was pissed.

who was pissed? Testa? Pissed at whom? why?
Was nick777 also 'pissed' when he said he knew a renowned cycling doctor who suggested Lemond had used EPO?
Was Dhaenens pissed when he said he thought Lemond introduced EPO into the peloton?
Boogerd when he said that in the peloton in which he rode it was a common assumption that Lemond introduced EPO? All pissed at Lemond and lying about him in a collective attempt to smear him?
Look, I can't and won't force you to approach this rationally. If that's the conspiracy you wanna believe in so be it.
You can believe whatever you want, and I'll point out the absurdity of it as long as I want.

Wow, Nick777, an anon poster on an internet forum is being put forward as evidence against leMond, talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Are you serioulsy asking why LeMond doesnt get as much grief as Contador(positive test)US Postal(arguably Biggest Doping scandal ever), Indurain(huge transformation from non-climber to 5 time winner at height of EPO era, confirmed link(not conjecture) with Conconi). SKY(work in progress but huge transformations from non GT riders Wiggins/Froome and now TUE scandals).

Also comparing Nibali's transformation to LeMonds Giro is ridiculous. Nibali was targeting the Giro overall but was below par but came good when needed which does arouse suspicion. LeMond was far out of contention and clearly below par but put all his focus into that final stage, his speciality the TT. If LeMond had flunked that TT, there was a real possibility he would have walked from the sport. Not the same at all.

Your "evidence" against LeMond amounts to rumours seemingly based on nothing more than conjecture and guilt by association which can be applied to absolutely any rider. You have singularly failed to produce a direct link anywhere comparable to the likes of Contador/Postal/Indurain etc.

If people want to believe it was impossible to ever win the Tour clean, fine there is nothing that can be produced that would change their minds. I can post quotes from Bernard Tapie, Paul Koechli & Steve Bauer who all said LeMond was clean at a time when saying someone was clean was not necessary/expected or not for PR gain. Will that change anybodys mind? I dont think so but the only other rider I can think of who has had that many people back them is Bassons.

....funny, but if you check the record LeMond was not a dominant time trailer...he was real good but not dominant, neither flat nor mountain....

Cheers

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Well, yeah. That's what it used to mean to be a top GC rider. You were really good at each aspect (climbing, TT, sprint, etc) but weren't as dominant as the specialists. The guys whose bodies were tuned to their specialty like when being a climber meant that you were small and thin. TT'ers like Indurain were big and muscular. Then EPO came along and all of a sudden guys could do it all.

GTs used to be way more fun... And don't get me started about race radios!

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

The anti-Lemond conspiracy thickens.

...
This full page article by ex-rider turned into journalist Bennie Ceulen is from 1990. He has one ex rider a soigneur and two team doctors admitting they know cyclists are using epo. In the top right colum Bennie writes: "It seems to have been first used by American athletes"
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&query=%28dialyse+epo%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1988%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-1990%22%29&identifier=ddd%3A010623773%3Ampeg21%3Aa0485&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010623773%3Ampeg21%3Aa0485

 

[blutto]

Re:

Well, yeah. That's what it used to mean to be a top GC rider. You were really good at each aspect (climbing, TT, sprint, etc) but weren't as dominant as the specialists. The guys whose bodies were tuned to their specialty like when being a climber meant that you were small and thin. TT'ers like Indurain were big and muscular. Then EPO came along and all of a sudden guys could do it all.

GTs used to be way more fun... And don't get me started about race radios!

John Swanson

....but but but....look at Hinault's time trialing when he was in his prime, or Fignon in that magic year....they were dominant....I believe LeMond only ever beat Hinault once, and that when Hinault had a broken nose....and the much maligned Indurain was faster than LeMond in a mountain TT in a pre-EPO Tour stage ( and this after busting his balls day in day out as a domestique )....

....and yeah, race radios, a serious yuk....how to suck the life out of races in one foul swoop....

Cheers

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Well, yeah. That's what it used to mean to be a top GC rider. You were really good at each aspect (climbing, TT, sprint, etc) but weren't as dominant as the specialists. The guys whose bodies were tuned to their specialty like when being a climber meant that you were small and thin. TT'ers like Indurain were big and muscular. Then EPO came along and all of a sudden guys could do it all.

GTs used to be way more fun... And don't get me started about race radios!

John Swanson

....but but but....look at Hinault's time trialing when he was in his prime, or Fignon in that magic year....they were dominant....I believe LeMond only ever beat Hinault once, and that when Hinault had a broken nose....and the much maligned Indurain was faster than LeMond in a mountain TT in a pre-EPO Tour stage ( and this after busting his balls day in day out as a domestique )....

....and yeah, race radios, a serious yuk....how to suck the life out of races in one foul swoop....

Cheers

Yes, Hinault was a better TT'er than Lemond and Fignon generally a better climber. Sean Kelly was a better sprinter. Lemond was really good at all those things.

What you rarely (if ever) saw back then was one rider dominating both climbing and TT'ing, as is so common now. Merckx and Hinault being somewhat the exception, though many climbers often beat them.

 

[Zypherov]

Re: Re:

Well, yeah. That's what it used to mean to be a top GC rider. You were really good at each aspect (climbing, TT, sprint, etc) but weren't as dominant as the specialists. The guys whose bodies were tuned to their specialty like when being a climber meant that you were small and thin. TT'ers like Indurain were big and muscular. Then EPO came along and all of a sudden guys could do it all.

GTs used to be way more fun... And don't get me started about race radios!

John Swanson

....but but but....look at Hinault's time trialing when he was in his prime, or Fignon in that magic year....they were dominant....I believe LeMond only ever beat Hinault once, and that when Hinault had a broken nose....and the much maligned Indurain was faster than LeMond in a mountain TT in a pre-EPO Tour stage ( and this after busting his balls day in day out as a domestique )....

....and yeah, race radios, a serious yuk....how to suck the life out of races in one foul swoop....

Cheers

Yes, Hinault was a better TT'er than Lemond and Fignon generally a better climber. Sean Kelly was a better sprinter. Lemond was really good at all those things.

What you rarely (if ever) saw back then was one rider dominating both climbing and TT'ing, as is so common now. Merckx and Hinault being somewhat the exception, though many climbers often beat them.

Stephen Roche was also both a good Time Trialist and climber.

 

[gillan1969]

here we go again....

epo arrives and 'tranforms' lemond into a worse rider than he was before epo

wait...there's another explanation....

lemond was also a pioneer of blood doping....

but...what about before Eddie B you ask....never mind...we have an explanation for the junior worlds...

ah...the family......

I await stories of Lemond drinking blood in nursery school

 

[sniper]

Turbo-dijen

Francesco Moser was de trendsetter met explosiviteitstrainingen. Hij sprintte onder toezicht van een inspanningsfysioloog zo snel mogelijk met de zwaarste versnelling tegen een berg op tot hij er bij neer viel. Bernard Hinault kweekte op die manier 'turbo-dijen' en was mede daardoor in de bergen de beste klimmers nog de baas. Greg LeMond nam de methode over en verbaasde alle kenners door op de zwaarste verzetten bergop te rijden. ... Rooks bedient zich ook al jaren van deze training. ' Macht kweken.'

Turbo thighs.

Moser was the trendsetter with explosivity trainings. He sprinted up the mountain as fast as he could in the heaviest possible gear under the supervision of an exercise physiologist. The same way Bernard Hinault developed 'turbo thighs' en partially thanks to that he managed to beat the best climbers uphill. Greg Lemond took over this method and surprised all specialists by riding up the mountain in the heaviest gears. Rooks also uses this methods for several years now. 'Developing power'.
https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/1990/04/21/steven-rooks-de-onverstoorbare-ik-zag-vroeger-te-veel-6928283-a174432

sounds legit.

 

[sniper]

Was reading up on 'mystery man' Otto Jacome.
He was a Mexican construction worker who moved to San Jose to make a living.
Got into cycling by coaching his son. He was then asked to coach the local San Jose cycling team, before being asked to coach the Lemonds (father and son).
The idea that Jacome worked exclusively for Lemond is not correct.
In 1984 Jacome was in LA as cycling coach of the Mexican amateurs including guys like Raul Alcala.
From what I understand, until 1987 Jacome and Lemond only trained in the US together. From 1987 onwards Jacome went with Lemond full time. But that didn't keep him from doing other coaching jobs on the side. In 1989 for instance he was coaching the Spanish team Caja Rural Orbea (in 1989 with a different sponsor, Paternina), a team that had been hit hard by a string of positives in 1988.

http://leiden.courant.nu/issue/LD/1991-02-25/edition/0/page/19?query=otto%20jacome&sort=relevance
http://www.proceso.com.mx/153939/hasta-uso-politico-se-le-dio

From 1989 onwards, in addition to coaching Lemond, Jacome was actively involved in the coaching of mexican cyclist Miguel Arroyo. In 1991, Lemond, Arroyo, Johan Lammerts and Otto Jacome went on a winter training trip together in a huge mobile home, driving and riding almost 3000 kilometers from San Jose to Cabo San Luca in Mexico. Lammerts, Lemond and Arroyo all rode for team Z that year.

http://leiden.courant.nu/issue/LLC/1990-07-13/edition/0/page/7?query=otto%20jacome&sort=relevance

That same year (1991) Arroyo finished fourth in the Tour de Suisse, his best result ever on the European tour. It earned him a contract with Lefevere and De Vlaeminck at GB-MG Maglificio. A year later Arroyo moved to Subaru-Montgomery.

As for Johan Lammerts, he apparently was one of Lemond's closer training buddies.
Began his carreer riding for Raas/Post/Raleigh/Panasonic. Got his best results in that period, winning the RvV in 1984 and stage 20 of the TDF in 1985; then rode a.o. for Toshiba, and then alongside Lemond at ADR and Z.
From 2006 onwards he was national coach of the national Dutch cyclocross team.
Since 2016 he is coach of the men's national road team, replacing Leo van Vliet.

 

[sniper]

As we were talking about transformations, here's an interesting posts from Oldman from several years ago.

Greg was getting dropped at an East Coast tour 6 weeks, thought about quitting before he went home to train. By himself. Before he won the Tour. I've never heard anyone that got that much stronger riding by themselves...ever.
viewtopic.php?p=55493#p55493

It was Tour duPont or something similar. I'm quoting Greg when he referenced getting dropped and nearly quitting the sport. Friends in Napa saw him training in that area with Otto Jacombe.
viewtopic.php?p=55606#p55606

 

[Tienus]

In 89 Lemond also worked with Paul Nijs, a pharmacist who was a member of the Belgium anti doping comittee. They where introduced by a mutual friend, Noel de jonckheere, who was DS at 7-eleven at that time.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1980%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-2000%22%29&query=lemond+hormonen&coll=ddd&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148

In an interview in 84 he is very open about the fact that many pro cyclist knock on his door for doping. According to him deca-durabolin is populair amongst cyclist and its produced by Organon. He is not a fan of amfetamines but if you insist he would advise pervitine (aka amphethamines or crystal meth) because It gives a fantastically good feeling.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&query=%28paul+nijs+doping%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1618%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-1995%22%29&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

In 89 Lemond also worked with Paul Nijs, a pharmacist who was a member of the Belgium anti doping comittee. They where introduced by a mutual friend, Noel de jonckheere, who was DS at 7-eleven at that time.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1980%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-2000%22%29&query=lemond+hormonen&coll=ddd&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148

In an interview in 84 he is very open about the fact that many pro cyclist knock on his door for doping. According to him deca-durabolin is populair amongst cyclist and its produced by Organon. He is not a fan of amfetamines but if you insist he would advise pervitine (aka amphethamines or crystal meth) because It gives a fantastically good feeling.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&query=%28paul+nijs+doping%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1618%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-1995%22%29&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120

The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

deleted.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

In 89 Lemond also worked with Paul Nijs, a pharmacist who was a member of the Belgium anti doping comittee. They where introduced by a mutual friend, Noel de jonckheere, who was DS at 7-eleven at that time.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1980%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-2000%22%29&query=lemond+hormonen&coll=ddd&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148

In an interview in 84 he is very open about the fact that many pro cyclist knock on his door for doping. According to him deca-durabolin is populair amongst cyclist and its produced by Organon. He is not a fan of amfetamines but if you insist he would advise pervitine (aka amphethamines or crystal meth) because It gives a fantastically good feeling.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&query=%28paul+nijs+doping%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1618%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-1995%22%29&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120

The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson

100% Agreed, I was starting to get tired of all these links that were appearing in Dutch or Flemish with no translations but claims being made from certain excerpts that were selectively quoted. I think it is starting to become a bit too obvious.