LeMond III

[sniper]

Tienus was making no claim.
You just made that up. Again.

If you get tired of people checking up on things and speculating about Lemond, well there are no rules against that, so you might be best advised to just ignore this thread.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson

Taking stuff from the horse's mouth really isn't the way forward here John.
You don't do it with Froome and Wiggins, so why do it with Lemond.
Nijs was a member of Belgium Antidoping. He wasn't going to say anything else than that.

It's an interesting find, tbh.
Nijs, antidoping AND providing cyclists with pharmaceuticals.
Classic example of a dope facilitator playing both sides.
Bermon, Conconi, Ekblom, Damsgaard, Schumacher, etc.
We've seen so many of them in recent years. It's interesting to learn that the concept was known already in the 80s.

The stuff Nijs is saying about his treatment of Lemond is comedy gold. A-grade quackery.

If you read the 1984 article, it makes perfectly clear what Nijs was about. Not just a quack, but a well-connected dope facilitator and one who knew how to beat the tests.
Lemond being treated by Nijs is no less dodgy than Froome working with Stephane Bermon.

On a side, Lemond was also rumored to be a client of Freddy "pot belge" Sergeant in the late 80s/early 90s. Which makes sense. Sergeant was ADR's soigneur.
I'm starting to understand why Lemond felt so at ease in Belgium.

Lemond later also worked with Bellocque, another dodgy hormone doctor.
Just saying, Lemond's network of the time makes Froome and Wiggins' combined entourage look pale by comparison.

If you get tired of the Dutch links, why don't you provide some in English or another language of your choice.
Feel free

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

Tienus was making no claim.
You just made that up. Again.

If you get tired of people checking up on things and speculating about Lemond, well there are no rules against that, so you might be best advised to just ignore this thread.

The only thing I am tired of is posters selectively quoting and misrepresenting articles for their own purposes which there are rules for. I would like to know what these full artciles say but I shouldn't have to translate them. This is an English language forum so if links in other languages are posted, they should at least be translated in full or the relevant parts translated.

As for LeMond working with this doctor, when exactly did he work with LeMond. As I already posted, LeMond spent very little time in Belgium in 89.

 

[Tienus]

The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson

I tried to use text recognising software but it doesnt work well on these newspapers. Otherwise It would be quick to translate and than correct the errors. If I would do that I probably still get criticism for incorrect translating.

Some translations bits from first link:
In the 89 tour Lemond used a plant extract (Smilax_ornata) from dr Nijs. Because of this extract the body gets more raw materials to produce hormones. It is not a hormone because that would be dangerous and forbidden.
About the abandon of the 92 tour: I saw his face on tv. He was tight and lean which points to clean. Round faces point to doping.

FMK has written a piece in English where Nijs is mentioned. Apparantly he can also make a legal plant extract that works like amfetamines.
http://www.podiumcafe.com/2010/9/24/1707769/freddy-maertens-take-two

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
The only thing I am tired of is posters selectively quoting and misrepresenting articles for their own purposes which there are rules for. I would like to know what these full artciles say but I shouldn't have to translate them. This is an English language forum so if links in other languages are posted, they should at least be translated in full or the relevant parts translated.

As for LeMond working with this doctor, when exactly did he work with LeMond. As I already posted, LeMond spent very little time in Belgium in 89.

Tienus didn't misrepresent anything.
You did misrepresent Tienus, however, by suggesting he "claimed" something.
What exactly did Tienus claim? Or were you just misrepresenting him for your own purpose?

Again, compliments to Tienus for this find.
To my knowledge Nijs connection with Lemond over a period of at least three years, let alone him providing Lemond with medicines in that period, had never been pointed out before.

As for translating, get real, you cannot expect Tienus or anybody to translate full articles that can't even be copy-pasted.

 

[Tienus]

proper link to first article
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CjG0_kREBMQJ:https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/1992/07/20/arsenicum-wint-het-van-kruid-7150352-a491708+&cd=1&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=nl

google translate without editing apart from title

Arsenic beats herbs

Greg LeMond got yesterday disillusioned from the Tour de France. The American spoke of exhaustion. According to the Belgian chemist Dr. Paul Nijs LeMond still hampered by a shotgun which a remainder after the accident at a hunting party left in his body. Arsenic released creates exhaustion. Nijs LeMond escorted three years ago, the season he won the Tour for the second time, with a composition of a plant extract. He revealed in the magazine "Better."

Can you explain from which the extract is made?

It is made up of raw materials from the plant sarsaparilla. This is an herb that grows especially in North America. The Indians were already using it to increase endurance. One hundred years ago, the properties of the plant were also discovered in Europe.

What effect does the plant on the body?

You can not win a Tour de France with. But in combination with a balanced diet and proper training you can benefit from it. By extract the body gets raw materials making itself will produce more hormones. As a result, the muscle tissue build-up is stimulated in a natural way. It is not a hormone, because it is harmful and prohibited. Sasaparilla is available at any pharmacy and is administered in drops. You should not see it as homeopathy. That is cheating people. The use of herbs I regard as a form of alternative medicine. A portion of the plant has a certain effect on the body. Eighty percent is useless, twenty percent can be used for an extract as this.

How did you come into contact with Greg LeMond?

By Noel de Jonckheere, a mutual friend of ours, now one of the team leaders of the American Motorola team. LeMond would not use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on its own products. I saw his face on television when he had made an end to his suffering. Sleek and skinny. This points to a clean body. Because when you have thick tronies suspected doping. But LeMond is the arsenic thirty bullets probably go back to work. That is pure poison ..

 

[Tienus]

To my knowledge Nijs connection with Lemond over a period of at least three years,

tbh I only read the 89 connection

 

[sniper]

Re:

To my knowledge Nijs connection with Lemond over a period of at least three years,

tbh I only read the 89 connection

The interview is from 1992, and the first paragraph ("According to Dr. Nijs Greg Lemond is still suffering from a schot hagel (...)") had me thinking he's still working with him in that year.
But you're right, the remainder suggests a connection only in 1989. My bad.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

...
The only thing I am tired of is posters selectively quoting and misrepresenting articles for their own purposes which there are rules for. I would like to know what these full artciles say but I shouldn't have to translate them. This is an English language forum so if links in other languages are posted, they should at least be translated in full or the relevant parts translated.

As for LeMond working with this doctor, when exactly did he work with LeMond. As I already posted, LeMond spent very little time in Belgium in 89.

Tienus didn't misrepresent anything.
You did misrepresent Tienus, however, by suggesting he "claimed" something.
What exactly did Tienus claim? Or were you just misrepresenting him for your own purpose?

Again, compliments to Tienus for this find.
To my knowledge Nijs connection with Lemond over a period of at least three years, let alone him providing Lemond with medicines in that period, had never been pointed out before.

As for translating, get real, you cannot expect Tienus or anybody to translate full articles that can't even be copy-pasted.

Funny I was referring more to you when thinking of people misrepresenting articles. Tienus selectively took out of the piece about riders coming to Nijs for drugs and mentions about LeMond working with the doctor. That implies something whilst if we actually get more translation, we find out exactly what he gave LeMond, plant extract. That is what you call mispresentation by omission. If posters cannot at least translate the relevant parts of articles, they are useless to the majority of posters.

 

[sniper]

thanks for confirming that you misrepresented Tienus.

and no, we don't find out exactly what he gave Lemond.
we find out exactly what he says he gave Lemond.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

thanks for confirming that you misrepresented Tienus.

and no, we don't find out exactly what he gave Lemond.
we find out exactly what he says he gave Lemond.

Except I showed exactly how he misrepresented what was in the article. I really dont expect you to keep up though.

 

[sniper]

great, so Tienus didn't "claim" anything after all. You just made that up.
oh well.

Back on topic.

Noel de Jonckheere is an interesting figure. Somehow seems to have been able to keep a relatively low profile.
Previously managing 7-eleven, then Motorola, now BMC. All the time working together with Max Testa and Eric Heiden.
The De Jonckheere-Nijs-Lemond connection then also adds extra weight to Testa's claim that Lemond had used too much drugs: it becomes less and less likely that Testa was merely speculating.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Tienus was making no claim.
You just made that up. Again.

If you get tired of people checking up on things and speculating about Lemond, well there are no rules against that, so you might be best advised to just ignore this thread.

The only thing I am tired of is posters selectively quoting and misrepresenting articles for their own purposes which there are rules for. I would like to know what these full artciles say but I shouldn't have to translate them. This is an English language forum so if links in other languages are posted, they should at least be translated in full or the relevant parts translated.

As for LeMond working with this doctor, when exactly did he work with LeMond. As I already posted, LeMond spent very little time in Belgium in 89.

I couldn't agree more, and I want to make sure that everyone is perfectly clear on this - There is no posting of languages other than English without a complete, accurate translation attached. I will be posting this as an announcement to make sure everyone understands that this has been a rule of the forum since the beginning. For some reason it has become a problem in recent months, it's time to nip it in the bud.

Just to reiterate, if a link does not have an accurate, complete translation (of pertinent parts) to go with it mods may delete the entire comment.

Cheers

 

[sniper]

I understand and respect the rule (and afaict Tienus lived up to it, so not sure why pcmg76 kept on complaining).

But the thing that really stands out here is that some posters chime in only to whine and moan (sorry, can't think of better words for it), instead of taking a *positive interest* in a (potentially salient) new piece of information...
They give the impression of being massively annoyed any time somebody speculates about Lemond and doping.
And so one is left wondering why these posters are still looking in here at all.
Maybe these posters should be subtly reminded that this is the Clinic.
Last time I checked there are other forums and subforums to discuss Lemond in a non-doping context.

Think about it: if new information (regardless of how speculative) is constantly 'welcomed' with such negativity, then what motivation is there left to look for new info - let alone translate it - in the first place?

 

[sniper]

Tirreno-Adriatico 1985.
Lemond was close to winning it, until he caught a fever and had to give up after the fourth stage.
To my surprise, Lemond says he took medicines from a doctor other than his own:

Lemond: "I felt really sick and couldn't sleep. I had 38 degrees fever. The doctor of the Italian basketball team, who stayed in the same hotel, gave me some medicins, because I absolutely wanted to ride the TT. I even trained behind the team's car. But the fever was elevated to 39 degrees and I couldn't breathe. "

http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=greg+lemond+dokter&page=2&sortfield=date&coll=ddd&identifier=ddd%3A010593626%3Ampeg21%3Aa0271&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010593626%3Ampeg21%3Aa0271

Another possibly interesting detail is that Lemond's teammate Hinault had to abandon the race one day earlier (during the third stage), allegedly due to bronchitis.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirreno-Adriatico_1985

 

[Tienus]

John asked a valid question to which I obviously responded. I would have also replied to pmcg76 if he asked a question.

I left my own summary / translation even after I found a copy paste-able version to show that I'm a poor translator. Its also very easy to accuse me of having an agenda after posting a summary like that.

There are multiple Dutch speakers in this forum and I expect to be corrected by them. Just like I questioned snipers conclusion yesterday. When I read in the XC skiing forum I sometimes have to put the same trust in the scandinaviens out here.
In my view the fact that there are posts here from different language news sources makes this forum attractive.

 

[Tienus]

Noel de Jonckheere is an interesting figure. Somehow seems to have been able to keep a relatively low profile.
Previously managing 7-eleven, then Motorola, now BMC. All the time working together with Max Testa and Eric Heiden.
The De Jonckheere-Nijs-Lemond connection then also adds extra weight to Testa's claim that Lemond had used too much drugs: it becomes less and less likely that Testa was merely speculating.

You have forgotten National Development Team Director for USA cycling.
http://www.usacycling.org/qa-with-jim-miller-and-noel-dejonckheere-at-national-team-camp.htm

 

[Irondan]

Re:

John asked a valid question to which I obviously responded. I would have also replied to pmcg76 if he asked a question.

I left my own summary / translation even after I found a copy paste-able version to show that I'm a poor translator. Its also very easy to accuse me of having an agenda after posting a summary like that.

There are multiple Dutch speakers in this forum and I expect to be corrected by them. Just like I questioned snipers conclusion yesterday. When I read in the XC skiing forum I sometimes have to put the same trust in the scandinaviens out here.
In my view the fact that there are posts here from different language news sources makes this forum attractive.

The main point is that the old newspaper articles are not able to be translated by auto translate from google chrome or any other translator without manually typing the text into the translator. That leaves the majority of the forum readers unable to read the posts in question. Since this is an english language forum, the responsibility lies with the poster to somehow manage to translate any pertinent information from the link. Otherwise, the comment in question is no better than an unsubstantiated rumor of which most people would call trolling.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson

I guess we can now add him to the surprisingly long list of people who knew or rode with Lemond who have claimed he never touched and/or outright refused drugs, when they say this about exactly zero other riders, ever. I've now heard or read it from Hampsten, Mottet, Kochli, Borysewicz, Anderson and now Nijs. I am sure there are others, it's been 30+ years since all this was going on.

It certainly is an outlier.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

Noel de Jonckheere is an interesting figure. Somehow seems to have been able to keep a relatively low profile.
Previously managing 7-eleven, then Motorola, now BMC. All the time working together with Max Testa and Eric Heiden.

What qualifies one as a "figure"? Should you have just come out and said "Shadowy"? What constitutes a "low profile"? What evidence do you have that he is seeking a "low profile" as your post implies ("...has been able...")? What evidence do you have that he was working with Testa and Heiden "all the time"? If he was, what is that evidence of?

More to the point, how does this in any way speak to anything about Lemond?

The guy was an accomplished rider and ran USA cycling's U23 squad for like...I don't know, forever. Your post basically reads, "I've never heard of him until now and he worked with a bunch of people in cycling". Which could be said of probably 90% of the people working in the sport.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson

I guess we can now add him to the surprisingly long list of people who knew or rode with Lemond who have claimed he never touched and/or outright refused drugs, when they say this about exactly zero other riders, ever. I've now heard or read it from Hampsten, Mottet, Kochli, Borysewicz, Anderson and now Nijs. I am sure there are others, it's been 30+ years since all this was going on.

It certainly is an outlier.

Incredible. You buy into the narrative like a fan with a typewriter.

Why would they say it about anybody else ifi they aren't being asked about anybody else?

I've heard many more say it about Froome, Wiggins, and Lance than I've ever heard people say it about Lemond.
Must be true then.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
What qualifies one as a "figure"? Should you have just come out and said "Shadowy"? What constitutes a "low profile"? What evidence do you have that he is seeking a "low profile" as your post implies ("...has been able...")? What evidence do you have that he was working with Testa and Heiden "all the time"? If he was, what is that evidence of?

More to the point, how does this in any way speak to anything about Lemond?

The guy was an accomplished rider and ran USA cycling's U23 squad for like...I don't know, forever. Your post basically reads, "I've never heard of him until now and he worked with a bunch of people in cycling". Which could be said of probably 90% of the people working in the sport.

Now you're just clogging by asking pointless questions.

He may or may not be relevant.
By not mentioning him, as you seem to prefer, we're not gonna find out are we.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

...
What qualifies one as a "figure"? Should you have just come out and said "Shadowy"? What constitutes a "low profile"? What evidence do you have that he is seeking a "low profile" as your post implies ("...has been able...")? What evidence do you have that he was working with Testa and Heiden "all the time"? If he was, what is that evidence of?

More to the point, how does this in any way speak to anything about Lemond?

The guy was an accomplished rider and ran USA cycling's U23 squad for like...I don't know, forever. Your post basically reads, "I've never heard of him until now and he worked with a bunch of people in cycling". Which could be said of probably 90% of the people working in the sport.

Now you're just clogging by asking pointless questions.

He may or may not be relevant.
By not mentioning him, as you seem to prefer, we're not gonna find out are we.

I'm clogging? That's funny. Irony in the extreme.

If you have some actual questions about him, bring them up. Might be interesting. If you have some actual information, post it. Might be interesting.

Not surprised you declined to answer any of my questions. I was hoping there were some answers beyond just making noise.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson

I guess we can now add him to the surprisingly long list of people who knew or rode with Lemond who have claimed he never touched and/or outright refused drugs, when they say this about exactly zero other riders, ever. I've now heard or read it from Hampsten, Mottet, Kochli, Borysewicz, Anderson and now Nijs. I am sure there are others, it's been 30+ years since all this was going on.

It certainly is an outlier.

Incredible. You buy into the narrative like a fan with a typewriter.

Why would they say it about anybody else ifi they aren't being asked about anybody else?

I've heard many more say it about Froome, Wiggins, and Lance than I've ever heard people say it about Lemond.
Must be true then.

All of those people were asked about others and evaded the question as you would expect. In other cases they brought up their view that Lemond was clean completely unbidden, because they found it remarkable and worth noting. Where on earth do you get the idea that "they" weren't asked about anyone else. That's pointedly NOT what I'm referring to. This "narrative" is your modern interpretation of the media environment from the 80's. It's a completely skewed and inaccurate perspective.

The "narrative" was nothing like you imagine it to be, it rarely came up in european media and almost never came up in the US. There was no narrative. You're trying to apply what we know now to the discussion during that era. It's utterly mis-informed. You weren't around then and are attempting to reconstruct the era with your own slant 30 years later. It's just not accurate or relevant.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

No WAY No HOW Lemond was not abusing the powers of meds.

After the TUE care bears. We really would sit here and debate it?