LeMond III

[blutto]

Re: Re:

....ran across the following while searching the internets for sightings of Otto ( who it seems has been a friend of the family since Greg was 15....so around since about the start of LeMond's cycling career ...)....could mean something or maybe not....

To go back for a moment to Lemond, I have had suspicions that he used
steroids and may have overused them. In a column that he wrote for Winning
in the early 1990s, he described all the symptoms that he was suffering
from; surpressed immune system and a few other telltale signs of steroid
abuse. He was also associated as a patient (as was Duclos) of the late Dr.
Bellocque(sp?), a French physician who was a proponent of "hormonal
adjustments." L'Equipe did a number of articles on him and his "sulferous"
theories. Dr. B. died of a coronary at a rather young age during the latter
part of the Giro (1993, IIRC). L'Equipe printed Lemonds comments and noted
how shaken/upset he was upon learning of the death.

Anyway, one of the side effects of steroid abuse is mytochondrial myopathy
of the sort that Lemond has. A standard internal medicine text that I
looked at around that time noted two causes for this type of myopathy,
genetics and steroid abuse. Nobody in Lemond's family had ever had such a
condition and his treating endocrinologist (a woman who's name I forget at
the Univ. of MN, IIRC) stated publicly that Lemond's myopathy was not caused
by lead poisoning.

Cheers

What a load of crap. Mitochondrial myopathy is a family of genetic disorders. http://www.emdn-mitonet.co.uk/pdf/encyclopedia_of_neurological_disorders_mitochondrial_myopathies.pdf

What's more is that Greg talked about mitochondrial myopathy as a possible reason for his drop in performance and as far as I know he never received a confirmation diagnosis. Other possible causes that he floated were the amounts of lead leaching into his blood. Finally, at some point he conceded that a large part of it was probably that everyone was on EPO and he couldn't recover enough to compete at 50 km/hr every day.

John Swanson

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...very sorry what is found below is a blutto response to the last post above by Scienceiscool....the quotes thingee is beyond my payscale...

....straight from the horses mouth....

LeMond: They do a muscle biopsy and then examine it with an electron microscope x-ray, at which point they can see if you have red ragged fibers, which are basically crystallized mitochondria, which do not produce AT (adenosine triphosphate, the basic fuel source on the cellular level). It's pretty clear as to whether you have it or not. There's no subjective interpretation. It's either you have it or you don't. I haven't had a biopsy since I retired. I did an EMG in October; it showed that I still have roughly the same level of the disease as three years ago. But the doctor also said that an EMG isn't accurate enough to detect whether it's actually progressed. To learn that would require another biopsy. The problem is that if it's progressed more, there's nothing they can do about it, so I don't really want to know.

http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/lemond98.html

...and its not like the diagnosis and the followup was a drive by assessment...

"

It's very possible it could be the lead," he said. "We're hoping to tie it to the lead because it would at least give me a clear answer for the future."

But Dr. Michelle Taube of the Minneapolis Sports Medicine Center, "who has worked the last three months researching me," is still not certain of the cause, LeMond said. "That's only the most likely theory."

...

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/12/03/sports/03iht-bike.html

....just so the point is not lost on anyone....in trying to ascertain a cause for a diagnosed condition they searched for three months....so to say possible at this point is just a wee bit weird....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

....and here is something to keep everyone aware of very relevant background....

From Johnson & Johnson (licensee and seller of Eprex/ProCrit in Europe):

http://www.jnj.com/our_company/timeline/1990.htm

1991

Recognizing the importance of innovative new products and a robust pipeline,
the Company's investment in research and development budget reached nearly
$1 billion by 1991.

After being available in Europe under the name EPREX® for three years,
PROCRIT® (Epoetin alfa) was launched in the United States by Ortho Biotech,
Inc. Within a decade, PROCRIT®/EPREX®, which combats the symptoms of anemia
by increasing the number of red blood cells in the patient's system, would
become the number one selling product in the Johnson & Johnson
pharmaceutical portfolio.



So while EPO may have been undergoing patent (and other) legal battles in
the US, it has been widely available in Europe since 1988.

And from http://www.amgen.com/pdfs/Fact_Sheet_Amgen.pdf

1989

* Amgen receives first patent for recombinant G-CSF (NEUPOGEN®)
* The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approves EPOGEN® for treatment
of anemia in adult patients with chronic renal failure who are on dialysis
* Amgen opens first offices in Europe

1991

* FDA approves NEUPOGEN® to decrease the incidence of infection associated
with chemotherapy-induced neutropenia in patients with non-myeloid cancers
* Federal Appeals Court rules in favor of Amgen in EPO patent dispute with
Genetic Institute

....so.....running back the trials/studies/approval timeline Procrit technically available in 85....

Cheers

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

You're losing your grip, here.

Just because I dismiss the Dhaenens rumor and the "altitude" rumour doesn't mean I associate everything with a rumour.

But here again I applaud your consistency : you just distorted what I said to fit your theory and discard an opposing view. This is your MO for collecting facts as well.

That you fail to see the difference between what is brought on the table here and what was brought for Indurain and Cancellara also says a lot.

BTW, the "LA did this too" argument just proves his lawyers were good. How to defend a dirty guy ? Just do and say what a clean guy would. It doesn't mean someone using the same line of defense is dirty. This too you failed to see, but you credit rumours. Go figure.

i think you missed my point. Let me explain it again (better hopefully).

Take Cancellara again: I know you think he used a motor, even though, in principle, that is just rumor.
Now, I can try and make an educated guess as to why you don't dismiss the rumor as "a baseless rumor": it's because there are facts available to us that directly support the rumor. If you've followed the Cancellara discussion, however, you'll have noticed that there are also facts available that do not support the rumor. So what have you done? You've taken the rumor, then weighed in the available facts, evidence, info, pro and contra, and have come to a weighed opinion/stance, this opinion/stance being that the rumor that Cance used a motor is very likely to be true.
So there is a rumor, and there are facts that support or disprove the rumor. In the case of Lemond you seem to conclude that the balance of evidence weighs in his favor, which is fair enough, it really is. But you completely missed the point reposting that "a thousand rumors don't make one fact". Nobody says that.

My opinion on Cancellara is not based on rumours. It is based on 3 things that I saw : 1/Switching bikes twice and giving no explanation, 2/A rivet on the seat tube, under the bottle cage 3/Wired power meter. This was the work of a journalist. I don't remember who, I don't remember if it was a magazine or a video but I saw it. To me these are facts. You may interpret them differently. You may think they are just a rumour since you didn't see them yourself but in my case, I saw them. Facts.

I'm not looking for the source because, honestly, I don't care about Cancellara. I thought it would help somehow, the people who actually care.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

You're losing your grip, here.

Just because I dismiss the Dhaenens rumor and the "altitude" rumour doesn't mean I associate everything with a rumour.

But here again I applaud your consistency : you just distorted what I said to fit your theory and discard an opposing view. This is your MO for collecting facts as well.

That you fail to see the difference between what is brought on the table here and what was brought for Indurain and Cancellara also says a lot.

BTW, the "LA did this too" argument just proves his lawyers were good. How to defend a dirty guy ? Just do and say what a clean guy would. It doesn't mean someone using the same line of defense is dirty. This too you failed to see, but you credit rumours. Go figure.

i think you missed my point. Let me explain it again (better hopefully).

Take Cancellara again: I know you think he used a motor, even though, in principle, that is just rumor.
Now, I can try and make an educated guess as to why you don't dismiss the rumor as "a baseless rumor": it's because there are facts available to us that directly support the rumor. If you've followed the Cancellara discussion, however, you'll have noticed that there are also facts available that do not support the rumor. So what have you done? You've taken the rumor, then weighed in the available facts, evidence, info, pro and contra, and have come to a weighed opinion/stance, this opinion/stance being that the rumor that Cance used a motor is very likely to be true.
So there is a rumor, and there are facts that support or disprove the rumor. In the case of Lemond you seem to conclude that the balance of evidence weighs in his favor, which is fair enough, it really is. But you completely missed the point reposting that "a thousand rumors don't make one fact". Nobody says that.

My opinion on Cancellara is not based on rumours. It is based on 3 things that I saw : 1/Switching bikes twice and giving no explanation, 2/A rivet on the seat tube, under the bottle cage 3/Wired power meter. This was the work of a journalist. I don't remember who, I don't remember if it was a magazine or a video but I saw it. To me these are facts. You may interpret them differently. You may think they are just a rumour since you didn't see them yourself but in my case, I saw them. Facts.

I'm not looking for the source because, honestly, I don't care about Cancellara. I thought it would help somehow, the people who actually care.

....oh gawd, not a rivet ....off with the cheaters head !....wait just one minute here, LeMond had rivets in some of his bikes....so where does that leave us...

Cheers

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re:

also, it's odd how you slam Indurain "Mig-hell" for ruining the sport with his EPO, yet you show no signs whatsoever of having any interest in the question who actually introduced EPO into the peloton.
You dismiss as 'baseless rumors' whatever information surfaces that suggests or hints that it may have been the American cyclists who first used it. You're not engaging with that question at all.
I pointed you to that new piece of information presented by Fearless Greg Lemond, even offered to translate it for you, but you show no interest.
It's fair enough if that question doesn't interest you, but then you'll understand that there is a perception of inconsistency if you subsequently slam Miguel for ruining the sport with his (ab)use of EPO.
Not to apologize Miguel's cheating, but one could argue that Indurain merely took advantage of products that had been introduced and tried by others.
Who were these 'others'? Any thoughts?

I repeat : I was never on a quest to slam anyone but when I found about Vassivière it was just WOW! I had to share it. There again, I thought it might interest some people in the clinic.
Bottom line : same thing as Cancellara, I don't really care about Indurain. I did what I had to do, end of story. For example, the riders I probably hate the most are Chiappucci and Argentin. They both clashed with Greg. They both jumped on the EPO train rather quickly. Am I opening threads ? Am I throwing anything at them ? NO ! Because I have more important and more interesting things to do !!!

i didn't read this new piece of information because I'm on my phone this week and browsing and logging in is a pain in the a**. Sorry.

From what I recall, the first nations to take advantage of EPO were Italy (Bugno, Chiapucci, Gewiss team), Switzerland (Rominger, Pascal Richard, Zulle, Dufaux), the the eastern Europe block (Berzin, Ugrumov, Rumsas). Spain was in there somewhere, France came along... But it's safe to say PDM was experimenting as early as 1991 (the strange illness during the Tour).

I also remember reading, but I don't remember when or where, that in the years 93/94, there was a reunion in the Gan team to decide if they were going to organize doping within the team, as Festina did. One of the incentives was Philippe Casado, who rode at Z and left for Jolly (Italy), saying french teams were laughed at. Roger Legeay apparently said "no" and Greg said he would always respect him for that. This is how I remember it but I definitely have to find the source for that. It will take time. But remember Casado died of a heart attack at age 30, in january 1995.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Wrong. I'm trying to fit the inconsistencies and questions into what we know. I can do that because I don't have some desperate need to see LeMond as a holy figure.

This way of qualifying the people not sharing your view is not helping.

And since we have no credibility in your eyes, I suggest you just ignore our posts.

I wasn't actually referring to you. There are two people in this thread who have stated they're not really following the discussion, and they're probably not the only ones. Instead of following the thread, and participating in discussion as you do, they just pop in occasionally to "defend LeMond's honor". (What's especially ironic about this is that we'd all decided to give the discussion a rest, but because they weren't actually reading the posts, they waded back in argumentatively, thereby keeping it going.)

When there's no discussion, no consideration of alternative possibilities, you no longer have reason, you have faith. Hence my use of the words "holy" and "saint".

Discussion with you has been interesting and enjoyable and productive, because it has been a discussion. Unfortunately it keeps getting derailed. And I've said all I have to say, anyway. Cheers.

Thanks for this, I understand.

But I also understand that some come here from time to time, and get the feeling it's the same old story. I looked at page 35 this week (4 years ago!) and had the same feeling.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

The kidney link is a red herring. The first users in the usa were likely in athletics. Cycling is a minor sport in the us. It makes sense that the pioneers of epo in cycling would be from a country that is passionate about it.

lol, "makes sense".
lemond won the tdf three times in that period.
there are several rumors from independent people linking the introduction of epo to Lemond.
By his own admission he was a kidney patient with anemia at least in 1989.
his soigneur was Mexican, where the drug apparently was widely available.
did you even try to read anything i and fearless greg lemond linked on the past two pages?

so again: is there anybody other than lemond who fits the mold?

Correction : it is not established Greg was a kidney patient. Nor that his kidney condition required extra care. I get where you are going with this and the way you link it is intriguing. But it's not because you connect those dots that it makes automatically Greg an EPO user.

To me, the simplest dot connection is : dopers were interested in getting better at doping. That makes a lot of people.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

also, it's odd how you slam Indurain "Mig-hell" for ruining the sport with his EPO, yet you show no signs whatsoever of having any interest in the question who actually introduced EPO into the peloton.
You dismiss as 'baseless rumors' whatever information surfaces that suggests or hints that it may have been the American cyclists who first used it. You're not engaging with that question at all.
I pointed you to that new piece of information presented by Fearless Greg Lemond, even offered to translate it for you, but you show no interest.
It's fair enough if that question doesn't interest you, but then you'll understand that there is a perception of inconsistency if you subsequently slam Miguel for ruining the sport with his (ab)use of EPO.
Not to apologize Miguel's cheating, but one could argue that Indurain merely took advantage of products that had been introduced and tried by others.
Who were these 'others'? Any thoughts?

I repeat : I was never on a quest to slam anyone but when I found about Vassivière it was just WOW! I had to share it. There again, I thought it might interest some people in the clinic.
Bottom line : same thing as Cancellara, I don't really care about Indurain. I did what I had to do, end of story. For example, the riders I probably hate the most are Chiappucci and Argentin. They both clashed with Greg. They both jumped on the EPO train rather quickly. Am I opening threads ? Am I throwing anything at them ? NO ! Because I have more important and more interesting things to do !!!

i didn't read this new piece of information because I'm on my phone this week and browsing and logging in is a pain in the a**. Sorry.

From what I recall, the first nations to take advantage of EPO were Italy (Bugno, Chiapucci, Gewiss team), Switzerland (Rominger, Pascal Richard, Zulle, Dufaux), the the eastern Europe block (Berzin, Ugrumov, Rumsas). Spain was in there somewhere, France came along... But it's safe to say PDM was experimenting as early as 1991 (the strange illness during the Tour).

I also remember reading, but I don't remember when or where, that in the years 93/94, there was a reunion in the Gan team to decide if they were going to organize doping within the team, as Festina did. One of the incentives was Philippe Casado, who rode at Z and left for Jolly (Italy), saying french teams were laughed at. Roger Legeay apparently said "no" and Greg said he would always respect him for that. This is how I remember it but I definitely have to find the source for that. It will take time. But remember Casado died of a heart attack at age 30, in january 1995.

....so what exactly was the beef with Argentin....and please don't say it was the World's incident ( for which LeMond eventually apologized....in the apology he mentioned he had simply misunderstood Argentin and had got off the bike after the race quite hot headed about the race and simply shot his mouth off...)...

Cheers

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Honest answer: No. Lemond did not undergo dialysis or have a medical condition that caused kidney failure.

The article indicates that is possible that the early pioneers could've been European.

i don't get your point on lemond.

You brought up dialysis patients and EPO and suggested it was a "dot" to connect Lemond to introducing EPO to the peloton. dpj is pointing out that Lemond didn't have kidney failure.

dialy-what?
all I said is Lemond was a kidney patient, by his own admission.
Amgen restricted the distribution of EPO to kidney disease centres.
If anybody would have had access to EPO in the pre-trial phase, it would 've been an American, or even better, an American with kidney problems, or even better an American athlete with kidney problems, or even better, an American athlete with kidney problems and plenty of cash to splash.

Lemond placed 3rd in his first tour in 1984. On EPO then? 2nd in 1985, and arguably was the strongest in the race and held back by his team. Anyway, second. On EPO then? Blood transfusions?

no. Not on epo or transfusions. But growing sick and tired of losing out on the top spot? Very likely.

It just doesn't make any sense.

take it up with the guys who thought lemond pioneered it. Not with an anonymous internet 'custard'.

I dismiss the motive after 84 and 85. He lost in 84 because he was sick. Lost in 85 because of team instructions. Nothing doping could beat.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Lance, lol.
http://postimg.org/image/vgxgqxt7f/

Red, in every single post you confirm what others have noticed: you don't read the thread, but jump in to derail it with strawmen and ridicule.

You post an image of a local paper where some guy claims he thinks Lemond introduced EPO to the peloton. You use this as an argument that Lance didn't astro-turf every english cycling forum for years? I've seen this post what 3 times now in the last couple of days?

Where is my strawman?

i'm not suggesting anything.
the guy in that newspaper is suggesting it.
boogerd, dhaenens, lance, gisbers, suggest it. An anonymous poster on a dutch/belgian forum says he was close to the peloton in the early 90s and riders he spoke to all thought lemond introduced epo. Maybe that was lance too, writing in Dutch.
(The latter also said Lemond was a Sergeant client 1989, btw. Bitter anonymous internet 'custard'.)
Sandro Donati (good luck attacking his cred) said Vanmol administered Greg with banned substances.

your response:

I think they're dead, so I can't.

...

Conceded. Someone at the time thought Lemond and the Americans brought EPO to the peloton and some local paper posted the story. Now do you want to address the timeline? Explain to me how he brought EPO to the peloton while he was in a hospital and riders were already dying from it? Or are you suggesting he brought it to the peloton in 1986 before he became a "kidney patient" because he was "tired of losing"? Despite the fact that there is nothing in his performances to suggest a change of any kind from a time when EPO simply didn't exist?

Again, I don't know for sure it was Greg. It's why I've asked three times now if there are other candidates who fit the mold so neatly.
If it was Greg, the available evidence suggests he was a user in 86. (I previously argued 89, but I would now think 86). As the NYT article said, 1986 is when pre-trial abuse by athletes started.
Again, if anybody would have had access to pre-trial epo it would have been an athlete with lemond's profile.
Another possible scenario is that Greg did not introduce epo, but was a one-season user under Vanmol in 89.
Though then we're left to explain why so many different sources have rumored that greg introduced it.

I'm still highly curious as to how (through which channels) epo became so widespread so early on among Dutch (and lesser extent belgian) racers.

Let it go already. All the dutch pointed at LeMond because he was the most famous, the most well paid. In the "everyone is a doper" world, it would make sense. I still can't believe how can anyone pay attention to this...

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

so was he a kidney patient or wasn't he?

No. He wasn't.

I would guess he was talking about bladder infections anyway. As I mentioned here before, pro athletes are not doctors and their claims should be taken with a grain of salt, especially about childhood illnesses.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

so was he a kidney patient or wasn't he?

No. He wasn't.

I would guess he was talking about bladder infections anyway. As I mentioned here before, pro athletes are not doctors and their claims should be taken with a grain of salt, especially about childhood illnesses.

....last page in a response you said, and in quite a matter of fact manner I may add, this about a question about kidney issues...

For which he received antibiotics, not dialysis. This is his rational for disliking needles. Pretty logical.

...yet now its bladder infections....sounds like a pretty darn fluid narrative....

Cheers

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

so was he a kidney patient or wasn't he?

No. He wasn't.

I would guess he was talking about bladder infections anyway. As I mentioned here before, pro athletes are not doctors and their claims should be taken with a grain of salt, especially about childhood illnesses.

....last page in a response you said, and in quite a matter of fact manner I may add, this about a question about kidney issues...

For which he received antibiotics, not dialysis. This is his rational for disliking needles. Pretty logical.

...yet now its bladder infections....sounds like a pretty darn fluid narrative....

Cheers

You do know what a kidney infection is, right?

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/kidney-infection/basics/definition/con-20032448

It's a UTI (Urinary Tract Infection) that has spread up into the kidneys. Common treatment is a course of antibiotics.

John Swanson

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

If you're interested in Greg's mitochondria, there's a whole book about it :

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0128010231/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1457208839&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=greg+lemond&dpPl=1&dpID=51im-6WYqcL&ref=plSrch

Here's a presentation :

http://outspokencyclist.com/2014/12/show-224-december-13-2014/

"After the hunting accident that almost killed him, Greg began to experience symptoms that were not explainable in any normal medical way until he had a biopsy that showed his Mitochrondria was being irrevocably impaired by the lead pellets that remained after the accident. He was experiencing severe lead poisoning at his very core.
Dr. Mark Hom was especially able to relate to Greg LeMond in ways other athletes and medical professionals could not: he is not only a biologist, medical illustrator, and physician, as well as an avid cyclist who rides over 4,000 miles a year, his specialty is Mitochondrial diseases."

So... We have someone actually knowing what he's talking about and not for a second considering Greg is a fraud.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

If you're interested in Greg's mitochondria, there's a whole book about it :

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0128010231/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1457208839&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=greg+lemond&dpPl=1&dpID=51im-6WYqcL&ref=plSrch

Here's a presentation :

http://outspokencyclist.com/2014/12/show-224-december-13-2014/

"After the hunting accident that almost killed him, Greg began to experience symptoms that were not explainable in any normal medical way until he had a biopsy that showed his Mitochrondria was being irrevocably impaired by the lead pellets that remained after the accident. He was experiencing severe lead poisoning at his very core.
Dr. Mark Hom was especially able to relate to Greg LeMond in ways other athletes and medical professionals could not: he is not only a biologist, medical illustrator, and physician, as well as an avid cyclist who rides over 4,000 miles a year, his specialty is Mitochondrial diseases."

So... We have someone actually knowing what he's talking about and not for a second considering Greg is a fraud.

Thanks. I was obviously wrong about his not having a confirmed diagnosis. Mea culpa and I apologize. Note that while lead poisoning may have caused the form of mitochondrial myopathy, it is still a genetic disorder by all four of the definitions I've seen.

John Swanson

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

So Lemond beat a host of top level dopers clean?

What is a top level doper in the mid 1980's? Certainly not someone on EPO or blood doping. So yes. It is widely considered the case that many riders won clean up until the early 90's. Certainly the best of those riders would be able to do so.

Many consider that Hampsten, Bauer, Mottet and a host of others were clean. When this is asserted no one balks. But to suggest Lemond was clean? Outrageous! Lance said it wasn't so! And astro-turfed every cycling forum with that suggestion for years.

Don't care for Lance, honestly. The other guys I unfortunately don't know too much about. I know who they are, but don't know much about them and their racing. I started following cycling late 90's as a kid, when guys like Ullrich, Pantani, Zabel, Cippolini, Zulle, Virenque, etc were at the top. History of doping in cycling has made me question many top cyclists, unfortunately. At least Greg seems like decent human being.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

So Lemond beat a host of top level dopers clean?

What is a top level doper in the mid 1980's? Certainly not someone on EPO or blood doping. So yes. It is widely considered the case that many riders won clean up until the early 90's. Certainly the best of those riders would be able to do so.

Many consider that Hampsten, Bauer, Mottet and a host of others were clean. When this is asserted no one balks. But to suggest Lemond was clean? Outrageous! Lance said it wasn't so! And astro-turfed every cycling forum with that suggestion for years.

Don't care for Lance, honestly. The other guys I unfortunately don't know too much about. I know who they are, but don't know much about them and their racing. I started following cycling late 90's as a kid, when guys like Ullrich, Pantani, Zabel, Cippolini, Zulle, Virenque, etc were at the top. History of doping in cycling has made me question many top cyclists, unfortunately. At least Greg seems like decent human being.

Simply different doping eras. The EPO based cycling you grew up with was fundamentally different. They all doped and you did not win clean. In the steroid era, you could, and many did. At least that's what the riders and coaches from those eras consistently say.

None of this is as cloudy or mysterious as some want it to be. I get that it's hard to imagine what it was like before, if one grew up watching EPO fueled cycling. How could your perspective not be skewed by that? Totally understandable. I simply suggest watching the older races and listening to those who rode in them and were involved in or watched the sport in that era. It was fundamentally different.

Frankly, it looks pretty boring in comparison to the EPO-fueled riding we have seen since the early to mid 90s. Here, 1984 TdF. Fignon attacking, Millar in the Maillot Pois, Lemond in his rainbow jersey. Yes, Lemond was World Champion in 1983, and here he's riding to a third place. Before EPO existed.

https://youtu.be/yqG_Hc0KF7A?t=16m2s

Look at the gears, the body sway, the exhaustion. Look at the speed. Almost a different sport to what we've gotten used to seeing.

 

[djpbaltimore]

@blutto. Great pun!

Lemond himself said he got antibiotic injections. Maybe it was vaccine shots instead.

John put the rest succintly already. Actual kidney infections are much rarer than bladder infections. Possible that lemond had a chronic case of the latter and one ascended to the kidney. Either way, dialysis not required!

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

so was he a kidney patient or wasn't he?

No. He wasn't.

I would guess he was talking about bladder infections anyway. As I mentioned here before, pro athletes are not doctors and their claims should be taken with a grain of salt, especially about childhood illnesses.

....last page in a response you said, and in quite a matter of fact manner I may add, this about a question about kidney issues...

For which he received antibiotics, not dialysis. This is his rational for disliking needles. Pretty logical.

...yet now its bladder infections....sounds like a pretty darn fluid narrative....

Cheers

You do know what a kidney infection is, right?

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/kidney-infection/basics/definition/con-20032448

It's a UTI (Urinary Tract Infection) that has spread up into the kidneys. Common treatment is a course of antibiotics.

John Swanson

he has a nurse sitting next to him, his father in law is an MD.
if he meant bladder infection, he'd have said bladder infection.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

so was he a kidney patient or wasn't he?

No. He wasn't.

I would guess he was talking about bladder infections anyway. As I mentioned here before, pro athletes are not doctors and their claims should be taken with a grain of salt, especially about childhood illnesses.

....last page in a response you said, and in quite a matter of fact manner I may add, this about a question about kidney issues...

For which he received antibiotics, not dialysis. This is his rational for disliking needles. Pretty logical.

...yet now its bladder infections....sounds like a pretty darn fluid narrative....

Cheers

You do know what a kidney infection is, right?

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/kidney-infection/basics/definition/con-20032448

It's a UTI (Urinary Tract Infection) that has spread up into the kidneys. Common treatment is a course of antibiotics.

John Swanson

he has a nurse sitting next to him, his father in law is an MD.
if he meant bladder infection, he'd have said bladder infection.

He didn't say he had a bladder infection, did he? No. He said a kidney infection. Which is a UTI. Similar to a bladder infection. Except in the kidney. <--- Not a bladder

John Swanson

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

What people seem to conveniently forget about LeMond was/is, his first Tour, he finished 3rd, his second he finished 2nd, and then in 86, he wins it. Its not like he finished 23rd one year like another rider did and then suddenly rattles off 7 in a row. LeMond was a strong rider from the get go.

I'm still waiting for someone to post proof/evidence/whatever on What I asked about when someone mentioned something about there not being any more "clean riders". I mentioned 2 off the top of my head(Hampsten and Steve Bauer and probably Davis Phinney too) and I have yet to hear back about them or Greg.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

Why wasn't proof of Greg doping provided to USADA/WADA/UCI years ago and when Wonderboy offered his princely sum to anyone who claimed to have seen or had proof Greg doped?

I could say my best friends, sisters, step uncle in laws, aunt's dog was hanging out in a trailer with Greg and he barked to me that Greg did such and such....but without 100% credible VERIFIABLE proof, it's all that.....heresay.


Like I mentioned before to you Sniper/whomever, please stop bringing us heresay and innuendo and rumors from what he said, she said, her bird said.....bring us CREDIBLE VERIFIABLE PROOF WE CAN ALL LOOK UP AND FIND THE ANSWER to....or all you or others look like are jealous, bitter fans who try to make strawman arguments with.no substance. Just MY opinion of course.

I'm still waiting for folks who keep shouting from rooftops that Hinault 100% "doped too" to "bring the goods" as they say. I have yet to see it posted.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

@sniper. Your points about kidneys in relation to lemond have been consistently nonsensical. Crying foul is not going to alter that.

Why would his wife or FIL know what he was diagnosed with before they knew him?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

Sandro Donati (good luck attacking his cred) said Vanmol administered Greg with banned substances.

Please, endulge us with a real source to this.

Ever read this one:

http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1018/Wielrennen/article/detail/3688321/2014/07/12/Ik-wilde-bij-PDM-geen-laboratoriumrat-zijn.dhtml

"When I arrived, Krikke told me I was going to win more tours than I could have ever imagined at PDM. He had invented everything. Especially the medical supervision. I found out during the year behind what he meant. I got testosterone pills to better recover after races, but I refused. And yes, it is true that they asked me if I wanted to donate blood to let it freeze. But then I did not. I was not a lab rat. "

Remember the diaries of Bertus Fok, with his 'zakje bloed'?

http://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/uit-het-verzorgersboekje-het-structurele-dopinggebruik-binnen-de-pdm-ploeg~a3381341/

This year whine many riders still in the use of corticosteroids such as cortisone and anabolic stereoïden as testosterone, a sex hormone that the body is also available in the pharmacy. Also administering a sack own blood doping blown over from Italy.
All this means that year prohibited by the doping list of the International Cycling Union. Fok: 'It was not. But they have not found it, you know. " Rider Gert-Jan Theunisse had a medical certificate allowing him to take cortisone "But that certificate I made abuse, I admit honestly. Not everything could then be detected. "

https://wielercafe.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/media_xl_1496718.jpg

I guess LeMond just kept the good stuff - the EPO - for himself and those amateur riders in Holland and Belgium who died because of it?

Next source:

http://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/de-wonderbaarlijke-jaren-van-wielerploeg-pdm~a548859/

The former riderr in question only wants to testify anonymous. In those days, says rider X, him anything strange is noticed in the guidance. Now, older and wiser, are later revealed pieces together. The picture he paints is consistent with the culture at Festina, as has been revealed by ex-soigneur Willy Voet: special treatment for a group of top drivers, the rest has to do with an ordinary care. "There was clearly a double standard gemeten.'Hij even had moreover chosen expressly for the innocent size. "Of course vitamins when you were not feeling well. But no sugars and infusions. I thought that was such a hassle. In itself nothing wrong with that, but you draw a line. I had already done with the amateurs. I hated to think my career various ailments such filth to krijgen.'De group of "chosen" existed at PDM from Knetemann Van der Poel, Theunisse and Rooks. Their solid support worker named Bertus Fok. The rest was under treatment of Rudy Jongen or another colleague. "There were young guys who said I want a time to Fok. I said yes boy, it does not work. " Has evidence of shady practices driver X and if not there yet, there have been, then ordered by the ploegleiding.Rudy Jongen takes colleague Fok in protection. In those years it was only logical that the best bodies were groped by the most honorable soigneur. "That hierarchy was cycling at that time simply. Not anymore, hoor.'A few times driver X has imagined in his PDM years that his forces were rigged without his knowledge. "I sometimes rode uphill so hard that I thought: OK, do you? It must have been paranoia, but you were not quite comfortable op.'Die plays suspicion not only tricks on him. "I've seen Greg LeMond sometimes ride from the riders hotel directly to a grocery store. He throws his empty bottle and pour a bottle of mineral water in.'Een years later LeMond away. Just as Pedro Delgado, he can't give a PDM Victory Tour. They do both a year after being out of service. The frustration accumulates op.Coureur X seeks and finds a team who observe his health.

You dont have to be a master google wizard to know who rider X is by the way. And him being jacked up without knowing it by a soigneur wasnt unusual in Dutch cycling in those days, just ask Johan van de Velde about good old Ruud Bakker.

So, in other words: give us some sources, please.

 

[ebandit]

thread rockin' might have/could have ..even lance could not buy dirt for cash...Mark L