Lemond once remarked that he had a certain genetic makeup which is quite unusual in the general population. He remarked that he had this advantage especially in grand tours over other cyclists in which he was able to recover from huge exertion extremely well naturally. I have not got a link for this information, but he did say something along those lines.
- Status
Re: LeMond
I was under the impression that Conconi invented blood doping, and he did so in 1979/80. This might well be wrong, but can you provide the evidence that LeMond's coach had started using them by 1979? (Also, am I missing something in not understanding why it was so important to go to Poland, since blood doping was neither illegal nor banned?)
@Zaydon: I believe it's usually said LeMond had a VO2max of 92.5, which is unprecedented.
I was under the impression that Conconi invented blood doping, and he did so in 1979/80. This might well be wrong, but can you provide the evidence that LeMond's coach had started using them by 1979? (Also, am I missing something in not understanding why it was so important to go to Poland, since blood doping was neither illegal nor banned?)
@Zaydon: I believe it's usually said LeMond had a VO2max of 92.5, which is unprecedented.
Re: LeMond
It would be interesting to determine which are more delusional, Sky fans or LeMond fans. I think I have to give it to LeMond fans; many Sky fans will admit that it is possible their riders might be doping but they are still fans. The LeMond disciples won't even admit he possibility, let alone the likelihood. They even wheeled out the old dusty, cobwebbed canard about their guy being so talented he didn't need to dope, as if the same observation could not be made about Armstrong's teenage years when he crushed full grown men in triathlons or Valverde's string of victories when he started racing. I also liked the foolishness that if LeMond doped then information would have been revealed by now, as if the ex-riders are anxious to come forward and admit what they were doing when the current environment has anyone who popped an amphetamine before a crit being publicly crucified by the puritans; the real kicker, of course, is using this sophistry while attacking an ex pro who does give such information.
I would like to see one of the gullible come up with a credible explanation why the halo wearing anti-dope crusader wont' say a word about Hinault or Kelly or Roche or Indurain or Rooks or...
It would be interesting to determine which are more delusional, Sky fans or LeMond fans. I think I have to give it to LeMond fans; many Sky fans will admit that it is possible their riders might be doping but they are still fans. The LeMond disciples won't even admit he possibility, let alone the likelihood. They even wheeled out the old dusty, cobwebbed canard about their guy being so talented he didn't need to dope, as if the same observation could not be made about Armstrong's teenage years when he crushed full grown men in triathlons or Valverde's string of victories when he started racing. I also liked the foolishness that if LeMond doped then information would have been revealed by now, as if the ex-riders are anxious to come forward and admit what they were doing when the current environment has anyone who popped an amphetamine before a crit being publicly crucified by the puritans; the real kicker, of course, is using this sophistry while attacking an ex pro who does give such information.
I would like to see one of the gullible come up with a credible explanation why the halo wearing anti-dope crusader wont' say a word about Hinault or Kelly or Roche or Indurain or Rooks or...
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Re:
And Eddy B is on the record in his book, unprompted, as saying Lemond didn't dope and didn't need to dope. A claim he has, to my knowledge, made of no other rider under his tutelage. He discussed many other riders in his book and makes this claim about no one else.
So someone with direct knowledge, who absolutely would know given his history of doping riders, claims Lemond is clean without prompting.
Sort of remarkable, isn't it?
sniper said:
And Eddy B is on the record in his book, unprompted, as saying Lemond didn't dope and didn't need to dope. A claim he has, to my knowledge, made of no other rider under his tutelage. He discussed many other riders in his book and makes this claim about no one else.
So someone with direct knowledge, who absolutely would know given his history of doping riders, claims Lemond is clean without prompting.
Sort of remarkable, isn't it?
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Re: Re:
The difference being he doesn't need a sycophant to make wild claims for him, as he actually had results to point to and not some trumped up BS about his physiology to rely on to explain his performance.
DamianoMachiavelli said:
The difference being he doesn't need a sycophant to make wild claims for him, as he actually had results to point to and not some trumped up BS about his physiology to rely on to explain his performance.
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Re: LeMond
It's certainly possible as many have said over the years. I certainly thought it likely before looking deeply into it. I have come to the conclusion it's not likely and the vast weight of evidence is on the clean side.
Sorry if that kills your personal attack on those who disagree with you. I'm certainly far from the only person who has made these comments, repeatedly. Ignoring that fact to bolster your view isn't evidence. It's reaching, badly.
DamianoMachiavelli said:
It's certainly possible as many have said over the years. I certainly thought it likely before looking deeply into it. I have come to the conclusion it's not likely and the vast weight of evidence is on the clean side.
Sorry if that kills your personal attack on those who disagree with you. I'm certainly far from the only person who has made these comments, repeatedly. Ignoring that fact to bolster your view isn't evidence. It's reaching, badly.
Re: LeMond
The argument here is not 'did LeMond ever dope?', the argument is over sniper's assertion that LeMond used EPO. I don't know what the opinions of other posters in this thread, but my opinion is that it's possible LeMond used PEDs (not necessarily willingly or knowingly) but thaf it's highly unlikely he ever used EPO. This distinction makes the world of difference: the 'old, dusty cobwebbed canard' is dubious when applied to doping in general, but logically impeccable here. A rider who was defeating his contemporaries before EPO was conceived is a rider who would crush said opponents if he was an early adopter of EPO. It's impossible to prove that a rider popped the standard cocktail of palliatives and amphetamines, but you're being wilfully naïve if you think that Armstrong and his private investigators wouldn't have uncovered his use of an experimental and notorious drug.
DamianoMachiavelli said:
The argument here is not 'did LeMond ever dope?', the argument is over sniper's assertion that LeMond used EPO. I don't know what the opinions of other posters in this thread, but my opinion is that it's possible LeMond used PEDs (not necessarily willingly or knowingly) but thaf it's highly unlikely he ever used EPO. This distinction makes the world of difference: the 'old, dusty cobwebbed canard' is dubious when applied to doping in general, but logically impeccable here. A rider who was defeating his contemporaries before EPO was conceived is a rider who would crush said opponents if he was an early adopter of EPO. It's impossible to prove that a rider popped the standard cocktail of palliatives and amphetamines, but you're being wilfully naïve if you think that Armstrong and his private investigators wouldn't have uncovered his use of an experimental and notorious drug.
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Re: Re:
DId I miss a response to this? I assume we'll drop the horse's mouth argument now?
red_flanders said:
DId I miss a response to this? I assume we'll drop the horse's mouth argument now?
Re:
Really? How many people have you talked with that have used steroids for cycling and what effect it had on their riding?
Keep in mind back in LeMond's day it was pretty much a free-for-all.
kwikki said:
Really? How many people have you talked with that have used steroids for cycling and what effect it had on their riding?
Keep in mind back in LeMond's day it was pretty much a free-for-all.
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Re: LeMond
For my part I've heard enough people saying that they didn't think he ever doped to count it as relatively unlikely that he did dope at all, but I don't discount it.
One can only add that Sniper has now added "Lemond introduced EPO to the peloton" and "Lemond doped his entire career" to the list of assertions. I'll assume as we move forth the list will grow as it has since he took up the cause.
Cannibal72 said:
For my part I've heard enough people saying that they didn't think he ever doped to count it as relatively unlikely that he did dope at all, but I don't discount it.
One can only add that Sniper has now added "Lemond introduced EPO to the peloton" and "Lemond doped his entire career" to the list of assertions. I'll assume as we move forth the list will grow as it has since he took up the cause.
So how did cleans ?? Lemond beat the doped Fignon in 1989 and the rest of the dopers in that Tour. Are we to believe that Lemond was such a natural talent that the majority of the rest of the field had to dope with testosterone, cortisone, amphetamines etc in order to keep up and were still unable to beat him. These drugs are highly beneficial to the athlete in terms of recovery and performance.
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Re: Re:
Always make sure your sources are right I told ya....
Good hunt, will find little.
[I searched enough]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Halupczoksniper said:
Always make sure your sources are right I told ya....
Good hunt, will find little.
[I searched enough]
Sucking wheels is easier than racing.Zaydon said:
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Re:
That's what those who were there and rode with him, coached him and knew him said. Take it for what it's worth, there isn't much evidence to the contrary. There is a lot of misinformation and speculation, as well as some testimony otherwise. Others were reputed to have won clean in that era as well. So one probably should reconcile whether they believe anyone could win clean back then, not just Lemond. Most say you could back then. Maybe not as much as you would have otherwise.
You can also watch the film of the races. He tires in every race. Goes through good and bad days, and tires on long stages. He cracks. Watch the '89 race for example, and turn off the sound. Watch the performances, and tell me which of the top 3 duking it out looks like they were doped. Watch Fignon get stronger and go ballistic near the end of the race while Lemond fades. Sure, Lemond recovers on the last couple of days, but they're not hard days and they make sense as days when you might recover. Fignon recovers in the thick of the mountain battle while Lemond tires.
Anyway, who knows. We have our opinions. I don't think there's anything convincing on the "he doped" side, and the "he brought EPO to the peloton" is totally unsupported and IMO preposterous.
Zaydon said:
That's what those who were there and rode with him, coached him and knew him said. Take it for what it's worth, there isn't much evidence to the contrary. There is a lot of misinformation and speculation, as well as some testimony otherwise. Others were reputed to have won clean in that era as well. So one probably should reconcile whether they believe anyone could win clean back then, not just Lemond. Most say you could back then. Maybe not as much as you would have otherwise.
You can also watch the film of the races. He tires in every race. Goes through good and bad days, and tires on long stages. He cracks. Watch the '89 race for example, and turn off the sound. Watch the performances, and tell me which of the top 3 duking it out looks like they were doped. Watch Fignon get stronger and go ballistic near the end of the race while Lemond fades. Sure, Lemond recovers on the last couple of days, but they're not hard days and they make sense as days when you might recover. Fignon recovers in the thick of the mountain battle while Lemond tires.
Anyway, who knows. We have our opinions. I don't think there's anything convincing on the "he doped" side, and the "he brought EPO to the peloton" is totally unsupported and IMO preposterous.
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The sole and entire basis of the accusations against Lemond boils down to 10 words:
No one can prove he didn't dope, therefore doubt remains.
There is exactly as much credible evidence that Lemond fired the shot from the grassy knoll at Dealey Plaza as there is he ever used PEDs.
[Yes, it's a tired old chestnut, but still as true as ever]
No one can prove he didn't dope, therefore doubt remains.
There is exactly as much credible evidence that Lemond fired the shot from the grassy knoll at Dealey Plaza as there is he ever used PEDs.
[Yes, it's a tired old chestnut, but still as true as ever]
Re: LeMond
One of the reasons LeMond tends to get a free pass is one of the reasons why Ullrich is still respected by fans and many riders that rode with him or were his adversaries, it's because they seem like genuinely nice guys. That's just how I see it. I am sure they burned a few bridges. Those sort of things are probably inevitable in professional sports. Particularly at the highest level, and both LeMond and Ullrich were at the highest level.
One of the reasons LeMond tends to get a free pass is one of the reasons why Ullrich is still respected by fans and many riders that rode with him or were his adversaries, it's because they seem like genuinely nice guys. That's just how I see it. I am sure they burned a few bridges. Those sort of things are probably inevitable in professional sports. Particularly at the highest level, and both LeMond and Ullrich were at the highest level.
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Re: LeMond
Lemond gets no free pass. He simply warrants a different conclusion.
He is not a particularly likeable guy IMO. Comes as nervous, easily agitated and indecisive. On the bike he lacked an attacking mentality or panache. Maybe he just never had that something extra the 'roid guys had.
BullsFan22 said:
Lemond gets no free pass. He simply warrants a different conclusion.
He is not a particularly likeable guy IMO. Comes as nervous, easily agitated and indecisive. On the bike he lacked an attacking mentality or panache. Maybe he just never had that something extra the 'roid guys had.
Re: LeMond
The rumor seems to have been very widespread starting (but not at all ending) with Dhaenens and a Dutch whistleblower in a 1990 Dutch newspaper article who said Lemond pioneered a new drug that stimulates the production of red blood cells.
We also know Vanmol was charging riders with EPO from 1989 (perhaps already 1988) through to 1993.
Combine these pieces of info with Lemond's self-declared medical profile (anemia + kidney problems) and his 1989 Giro renaissance, and it's difficult not to do the math here.
Very interesting.DamianoMachiavelli said:
The rumor seems to have been very widespread starting (but not at all ending) with Dhaenens and a Dutch whistleblower in a 1990 Dutch newspaper article who said Lemond pioneered a new drug that stimulates the production of red blood cells.
We also know Vanmol was charging riders with EPO from 1989 (perhaps already 1988) through to 1993.
Combine these pieces of info with Lemond's self-declared medical profile (anemia + kidney problems) and his 1989 Giro renaissance, and it's difficult not to do the math here.
Re: LeMond
He wasn't well liked in the peloton either, it appears. He had his American friends - Hampsten and Bauer - but the French riders thought he was strange and unpleasant, and even the Irish pioneers (Roche, Kelly) have expressed ambivalence about him.
red_flanders said:
He wasn't well liked in the peloton either, it appears. He had his American friends - Hampsten and Bauer - but the French riders thought he was strange and unpleasant, and even the Irish pioneers (Roche, Kelly) have expressed ambivalence about him.
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Re: LeMond
And even Hampsten and Bauer point out he's selfish and self-involved.
It's not LeMond's personality that leads people to say he was clean. It's the evidence.
Cannibal72 said:
And even Hampsten and Bauer point out he's selfish and self-involved.
It's not LeMond's personality that leads people to say he was clean. It's the evidence.
Re: LeMond
A whole peloton stretching over two or three generations is on the record saying/rumoring Lemond used EPO. The doc who treated him with ironshots is known to have injected riders with EPO from the late 80s through to the early 90s.
But all that is worthless, because his buddy Hampsten, his discoverer Eddie, and his doctor Vanmol, say Lemond was clean.
Never mind that Vanmol also said Planckaert was clean, Planckaert who later admitted to using EPO.
Never mind that Eddie would be a total nobody if it weren't for Lemond. Lemond, who in 2005 threw Eddie a nice fundraiser, inviting all the blood dopers from the 1984 LA games.
Hampsten and Bauer said Lemond was clean? Wow...glad we got that settled. Didn't Hincapie and Michael Barry and Bradley Wiggins and Daniel Coyle and Johan Bruyneel say Lance was clean? They all rode and worked with him. Must be true then.
A loosely related anecdote from 1999:
A Dutch doc named Castoings accuses Lemond of having used EPO.
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1401/ad/integration/nmc/frameset/varia/kobala_article.dhtml?artid=rd003372
Now, admittedly, this Castoings guy had his facts all messed up. For instance, he said Lemond's father was a doc, where of course he should have said Lemond's father in law was a doc. So sure, Castoings = zero credibility.
But what makes the story interesting, is Lemond's reaction. Instead of ignoring the story altogether, Lemond puts his longtime Dutch friend and ex-pro Rini Wagtmans on the case who subsequently sets out to silence Castoings. So this Rini guy writes a letter to Castoings, threatening Castoings with legal action if he doesn't retract his accusations. (And, sure enough, Castoings retracts.)
Who is this Lemond buddy, Rini Wagtmans? Rini Wagtmans, to put it bluntly, was old school. He rode GTs alongside Merckx and had been on the sauce himself, as he admitted only recently:
http://www.omroepbrabant.nl/?news/187191932/Rini+Wagtmans+kreeg+amfetamine+van+KNWU.aspx
Thats him there in the middle:
(On a side, Rini Wagtman's nephew Wout who rode in the same period wasn't exactly an angle either:
http://www.ed.nl/sport/wielrennen/tour-de-france/in-de-jaren-60-al-dopingperikelen-in-de-wielersport-1.3838742)
in total agreement here.DamianoMachiavelli said:
A whole peloton stretching over two or three generations is on the record saying/rumoring Lemond used EPO. The doc who treated him with ironshots is known to have injected riders with EPO from the late 80s through to the early 90s.
But all that is worthless, because his buddy Hampsten, his discoverer Eddie, and his doctor Vanmol, say Lemond was clean.
Never mind that Vanmol also said Planckaert was clean, Planckaert who later admitted to using EPO.
Never mind that Eddie would be a total nobody if it weren't for Lemond. Lemond, who in 2005 threw Eddie a nice fundraiser, inviting all the blood dopers from the 1984 LA games.
Hampsten and Bauer said Lemond was clean? Wow...glad we got that settled. Didn't Hincapie and Michael Barry and Bradley Wiggins and Daniel Coyle and Johan Bruyneel say Lance was clean? They all rode and worked with him. Must be true then.
A loosely related anecdote from 1999:
A Dutch doc named Castoings accuses Lemond of having used EPO.
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1401/ad/integration/nmc/frameset/varia/kobala_article.dhtml?artid=rd003372
Now, admittedly, this Castoings guy had his facts all messed up. For instance, he said Lemond's father was a doc, where of course he should have said Lemond's father in law was a doc. So sure, Castoings = zero credibility.
But what makes the story interesting, is Lemond's reaction. Instead of ignoring the story altogether, Lemond puts his longtime Dutch friend and ex-pro Rini Wagtmans on the case who subsequently sets out to silence Castoings. So this Rini guy writes a letter to Castoings, threatening Castoings with legal action if he doesn't retract his accusations. (And, sure enough, Castoings retracts.)
Who is this Lemond buddy, Rini Wagtmans? Rini Wagtmans, to put it bluntly, was old school. He rode GTs alongside Merckx and had been on the sauce himself, as he admitted only recently:
http://www.omroepbrabant.nl/?news/187191932/Rini+Wagtmans+kreeg+amfetamine+van+KNWU.aspx
Thats him there in the middle:
(On a side, Rini Wagtman's nephew Wout who rode in the same period wasn't exactly an angle either:
http://www.ed.nl/sport/wielrennen/tour-de-france/in-de-jaren-60-al-dopingperikelen-in-de-wielersport-1.3838742)
Re: Re:
Vanmol injecting polish rider with epo in 1989, same year he gives Lemond his miraculous Giro iron shots.
Lemond, anemia + kidney problems.
Vanmol with two other anemia patients at ADR in 1988. But it allegedly was Otto who discovered Lemond's anemia. Right.... Then Planckaert admitting to EPO. Dirk Demol in the mix. Freddy Sergeant.
You have to see the smoke here FGL, even without the whole peloton rumoring it.
little?Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Vanmol injecting polish rider with epo in 1989, same year he gives Lemond his miraculous Giro iron shots.
Lemond, anemia + kidney problems.
Vanmol with two other anemia patients at ADR in 1988. But it allegedly was Otto who discovered Lemond's anemia. Right.... Then Planckaert admitting to EPO. Dirk Demol in the mix. Freddy Sergeant.
You have to see the smoke here FGL, even without the whole peloton rumoring it.
Re: LeMond
How close do the dots have to be for the Clinic Orthodoxy to connect them? If it was any other rider then RR would be using back channels to have anyone who questioned the obvious banned for being a troll.
Let's also dismiss the idea that drugs before EPO didn't make a difference. Many anabolics have an effect on hematocrit. This is well known. For example, an ex pro explained to me that his went up by three points when using HGH with no additional drugs. He gained around eight Watts per point. So with a 400 W FTP, his gain was ~6%, which is absolutely massive at the elite level. Yes, Martha, the steroids they were using in the 80s did make a big difference.
sniper said:
How close do the dots have to be for the Clinic Orthodoxy to connect them? If it was any other rider then RR would be using back channels to have anyone who questioned the obvious banned for being a troll.
Let's also dismiss the idea that drugs before EPO didn't make a difference. Many anabolics have an effect on hematocrit. This is well known. For example, an ex pro explained to me that his went up by three points when using HGH with no additional drugs. He gained around eight Watts per point. So with a 400 W FTP, his gain was ~6%, which is absolutely massive at the elite level. Yes, Martha, the steroids they were using in the 80s did make a big difference.
Re: LeMond
The only relevant study I could find reported no effect of HGH on hematocrit, though that was in animals. There are several review articles that claim that meta-analyses show that testosterone can increase HT, and it's even reported as a major effect of replacement therapy, but when one looks at the actual studies, the effect appears quite minor. It should also be emphasized that these studies were generally carried out with older men, often with T deficiency.
i think if steroids or HGH could robustly and reliably increase HT, there wouldn't have been so much interest in using EPO. It may be that these drugs increase HT in some individuals, but I don't think they make a very good substitute for EPO.
DamianoMachiavelli said:
The only relevant study I could find reported no effect of HGH on hematocrit, though that was in animals. There are several review articles that claim that meta-analyses show that testosterone can increase HT, and it's even reported as a major effect of replacement therapy, but when one looks at the actual studies, the effect appears quite minor. It should also be emphasized that these studies were generally carried out with older men, often with T deficiency.
i think if steroids or HGH could robustly and reliably increase HT, there wouldn't have been so much interest in using EPO. It may be that these drugs increase HT in some individuals, but I don't think they make a very good substitute for EPO.
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