LeMond III

[sniper]

Re:

@spawn of e

Franklin said this about Lemond's ooc preparation:

...
He [Lemond] had some odd intervals training in the US and coming back stronger. This was widely discussed in the magazines and was seen as a profesional, new way of training.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

This whole discussion is typical Clinic BS, where the orthodoxy rationalizes its dogma. This place is now officially no different than Bike ***.

Did Floyd and Armstrong think Lemond doped? Probably. Sounds like Armstrong certainly did. That isn't a rumor, that's just the perspective of a couple of dopers who clearly thought everyone was doped and may have (not confirmed, just speculating) simply extended that to Lemond and the past. Calling that "confirming a decades old rumor" and attempting to bolster the rumor of the rumor makes no sense.

 

[Cannibal72]

Re: LeMond

Let's also dismiss the idea that drugs before EPO didn't make a difference. Many anabolics have an effect on hematocrit. This is well known. For example, an ex pro explained to me that his went up by three points when using HGH with no additional drugs. He gained around eight Watts per point. So with a 400 W FTP, his gain was ~6%, which is absolutely massive at the elite level. Yes, Martha, the steroids they were using in the 80s did make a big difference.

The only relevant study I could find reported no effect of HGH on hematocrit, though that was in animals. There are several review articles that claim that meta-analyses show that testosterone can increase HT, and it's even reported as a major effect of replacement therapy, but when one looks at the actual studies, the effect appears quite minor. It should also be emphasized that these studies were generally carried out with older men, often with T deficiency.

i think if steroids or HGH could robustly and reliably increase HT, there wouldn't have been so much interest in using EPO. It may be that these drugs increase HT in some individuals, but I don't think they make a very good substitute for EPO.

Funny enough, body building sites are filled with questions by AAS users dealing with high hematocrit, sometimes in the upper fifties. Solutions extend to making regular blood donations or even bleeding bleeding themselves. I don't think leeches have been advised but I would not be surprised. The effect varies from person to person and substance to substance.

I used to think that steroids would not make much of a difference for cycling because the studies for the effect on aerobic endurance sports don't show they help. You get a much different picture when talking with people who have used. The acid test is whether they think they could compete clean against themselves on steroids. The response is always to laugh or look at you like you are stupid. It may have been possible to compete at the Tour when stimulants were the drug of the day, but when steroids entered the picture, no way. We need to move the "possible to win the Tour without drugs" era back at least ten years. That puts LeMond smack dab in the center of a time when all his rivals were gaining a huge advantage.

What on earth makes you think that at a certain point in time the Tour suddenly became inaccesible to non-dopers? Did the peloton sit down and decide not to let non-dopers win? Or do you really believe that steroids were the kind of miracle drug that EPO has widely been considered as and widely been discredited of being? It's pretty odd that this statement expresses such a naive and binary view of doping when many of your previous statements have been condescending the blind and foolish LeMond fans. No single drug is an on-off switch.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: LeMond

@Irondan, this rubbish and innuendo is why this bullrush thread for butthurting posters was opened again?

Lemond once shook hands with Snoop Dog - Oh! Greg is a toker!

Greg watched the 94 Winter Olympics - Oh! Greg is Dolooley!

Greg's been to France - Oh! Lemond hates freedom so much he bombed the Angels of Death Metal concert.

Time to ride our bikes again.

 

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

...

What on earth makes you think that at a certain point in time the Tour suddenly became inaccesible to non-dopers? Did the peloton sit down and decide not to let non-dopers win? Or do you really believe that steroids were the kind of miracle drug that EPO has widely been considered as and widely been discredited of being? It's pretty odd that this statement expresses such a naive and binary view of doping when many of your previous statements have been condescending the blind and foolish LeMond fans. No single drug is an on-off switch.

didn't you use Mottet as an argument that you can win clean only a few pages ago?
that argument didn't quite pan out, did it.
also, good job ignoring autologous transfusions, hell, ignoring the history of cycling and doping up to the 80s.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

Did Floyd and Armstrong think Lemond doped? Probably. Sounds like Armstrong certainly did. That isn't a rumor, that's just the perspective of a couple of dopers who clearly thought everyone was doped and may have (not confirmed, just speculating) simply extended that to Lemond and the past. Calling that "confirming a decades old rumor" and attempting to bolster the rumor of the rumor makes no sense.

How did they form those perspectives? When Floyd told me it was common knowledge that LeMond was one of the first EPO users, I specifically asked whether riders in the peloton talked about it. He said yes.

People here go through all sorts of gymnastics to parse whatever LA says--or even fails to say--into their preconceived beliefs. How about we start applying the same parsing to LeMond? LeMond has spent thirty years--no exaggeration--building up the myth of how he was prevented from winning the 1985 Tour. He whinges about it at every opportunity. Why does he rely on being tricked into waiting instead of the drug use on Hinault's team? As the Doping Jesus, why hasn't LeMond ever called out Hinault and pointed to doping as one of the reasons he didn't win?

 

[Cannibal72]

Re: LeMond

...

What on earth makes you think that at a certain point in time the Tour suddenly became inaccesible to non-dopers? Did the peloton sit down and decide not to let non-dopers win? Or do you really believe that steroids were the kind of miracle drug that EPO has widely been considered as and widely been discredited of being? It's pretty odd that this statement expresses such a naive and binary view of doping when many of your previous statements have been condescending the blind and foolish LeMond fans. No single drug is an on-off switch.

didn't you use Mottet as an argument that you can win clean only a few pages ago?
that argument didn't quite pan out, did it.
also, good job ignoring autologous transfusions, hell, ignoring the history of cycling and doping up to the 80s.

The condescending started with Red, you followed suit only a few pages ago.
Don't put it on others now.

No, I have absolutely no opinion on Mottet. He may have doped, he may not have doped.

 

[Digger]

Re:

Fact is that Greg threw himself into the landis case simply to get at lance - it had zero to do with clean cycling and hog is right. He refused to be cross examined. A measure of a man is surely how they treat you when you are down. Greg got his moment with Floyd and continued to kick.

Another issue - greg was perfectly okay to play the game in the anabolics era, not once did he back up Kimmage in 1990. Not once.

And can you honestly say that greg has been consistent in his words on dopers? Pantani - calling him a great? It was personal between him and lance - it had sweet f*** all to do with clean cycling, because if It had, Greg's words would have been consistent.

Greg are you recording this conversation? No...the same greg who chased down his own countryman at the Worlds in what is one of the most infamous moments in Worlds history...Greg's behaviour on Eurosport, where he shoots the breeze with known dopers, never asking them a doping question and saying oleg is good for cycling. Classy guy

 

[Digger]

Re: Re:

Did Floyd and Armstrong think Lemond doped? Probably. Sounds like Armstrong certainly did. That isn't a rumor, that's just the perspective of a couple of dopers who clearly thought everyone was doped and may have (not confirmed, just speculating) simply extended that to Lemond and the past. Calling that "confirming a decades old rumor" and attempting to bolster the rumor of the rumor makes no sense.

How did they form those perspectives? When Floyd told me it was common knowledge that LeMond was one of the first EPO users, I specifically asked whether riders in the peloton talked about it. He said yes.

People here go through all sorts of gymnastics to parse whatever LA says--or even fails to say--into their preconceived beliefs. How about we start applying the same parsing to LeMond? LeMond has spent thirty years--no exaggeration--building up the myth of how he was prevented from winning the 1985 Tour. He whinges about it at every opportunity. Why does he rely on being tricked into waiting instead of the drug use on Hinault's team? As the Doping Jesus, why hasn't LeMond ever called out Hinault and pointed to doping as one of the reasons he didn't win?

This....and really that's a great point.

 

[Irondan]

Re: LeMond

@Irondan, this rubbish and innuendo is why this bullrush thread for butthurting posters was opened again?

Lemond once shook hands with Snoop Dog - Oh! Greg is a toker!

Greg watched the 94 Winter Olympics - Oh! Greg is Dolooley!

Greg's been to France - Oh! Lemond hates freedom so much he bombed the Angels of Death Metal concert.

Time to ride our bikes again.

I get accused of over-moderation because I closed this thread now I get accused of under-moderation because it's open, I can't win..

The point is that this thread was never going to be closed permanently.

I closed it temporarily due to some trolling/baiting and other semi nefarious postings. It was closed to let things cool off for a bit, now it's back open for all members to share their opinions, and hopefully post new information that would necessitate healthy debate.

As of yet there has been no new information posted that's any different from the last 10 pages.

Obviously not everyone is going to agree with each other but they're free to express themselves within forum rules just as much as you or I'm able to.

 

[sniper]

@stingray: a more positive word for 'innuendo' is 'relevant contextual information'.

Here's an example of that, from 1989:

Amgen sold about $16 million worth of its new anti-anemia biotechnology drug in June, the first month of its introduction, enabling the Thousand Oaks biotechnology company to post a $835,000 profit for its first quarter that ended June 30.

The drug, erythropoietin (EPO), is considered by many financial analysts as the next blockbuster biotech drug because of its impressive results in combating chronic anemia in patients suffering from kidney disease.

But some physicians warn that sales of the drug may be slower than expected because EPO is expensive and Medicare has agreed to pick up only a portion of the cost.

"Very few people are getting the drug unless they are buying it on their own," said Kenneth Kleinman, a Van Nuys physician. At one local kidney dialysis clinic, he said, only about 15 of 50 patients who need the drug are receiving it, and only because they are wealthy enough to afford it.
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/business/fi-164_1_biotechnology-drug

so,
1989, anemia, kidney problems, wealthy enough to afford it..
anybody know anybody who ticks these boxes?

 

[pmcg76]

Re: LeMond

This whole thing seems to be circulating around the rumour of LeMond bringing EPO to Europe. TBH it doesn't make it any more true just because it has been repeated, that is the nature of rumours and bits get added on as they go.

Now that Floyd has been introduced. Who remembers the JV/Franke exchange in which they discussed Floyd having his blood bags dumped down the toilet because Postal/Lance were pissed at Floyd because they found out he was jumping ship or Floyd having pictures of the pannier carrying motorcycle containing the dope.

When these 'rumours' were put to Floyd, it turned out neither was true. There was some starting point for both stories but they had become so warped that they barely resembled their origins. That is why so few give rumours much relevance, gossip is just that. gossip. Every year there are 100s of rumours about transfers but most are nonsense. They usually start out of some perceived action or notion and then gain ground. X was seen chatting to manager Y, next thing you know, they are joining their team.

Sniper wanted the EPO rumour addressed and it was, by a few people, inclduing myself. What I haven't seen happen is sniper address the explanations given as to how the rumour may have started, instead choosing to ramble on about this amazing rumour as if it is akin to Lance admitting he doped.

I will happily discuss the EPO angle and I asked this before in this thread. When exaclty is LeMond supposed to have started taking EPO, like at what exact point? The Giro in 89? before then? at PDM in 88? when was the alleged start point? I also would like to say Van Mol is being grossly overplayed here, if he was that vital to LeMond, he would have worked with him beyond ADR. He didn't and from what was about at the time, he didn't work much with LeMond ar ADR either.

Also on Mottet, he admitted to trying amphetamines once I think. Outside of crits and very minor races, amphetamines were hardly used as they were easily detected in that era. Paul Kimmage tried amphetamines a few times but I wouldn't lable him a doper, likewise I wouldn't label a rider a doper because they tried something once. Kimmage rode all 4 of his GTs without resorting to illegal methods.

Also clear a lot of people commenting have no clue about LeMonds career. Going back to US in 1990 because of a virus, yes he did in early April I think. But guess what, he still sucked in May at the Tour de Trump and then at the Giro. If he went back to the US to dope up it clearly didn't work.

Sniper, LeMonds career didnt end in 1991, he continued on until 1994. I cant believe some people don't even know the basics but then thats no surprise when sniper didn't even know LeMond had been shot and then suggested it was staged so LeMond could dope.

 

[djpbaltimore]

@pmcg76. Agree with your post. In regards to not knowing the basics, the same argument applies to the continued mangling of the biology of LeMond's medical condition one post above yours.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re:

@pmcg76. Agree with your post. In regards to not knowing the basics, the same argument applies to the continued mangling of the biology of LeMond's medical condition one post above yours.

LeMond has told so many whoppers about why he retired that you really cannot blame anyone for not keeping it straight. LeMond never mentions that he used to eat so many cakes and pies during winter that it was a struggle to get into shape by July. From 1990 onward he was on the 1998 Ullrich training plan.

 

[djpbaltimore]

@dm. Do you honestly think LeMond had an Rx for epo from his doctor? Or that he was on medicare in 1989? Or that his medical condition required dialysis? That la times article is a red herring.

 

[sniper]

@pcmg, when i said "called it a day", I obviously meant "called 'it' a day", not his carreer.
In the hypothetical scenario that Lemond used epo, him falling behind in 1991 requires an explanation. I merely gave one such possible explanation. Not saying there aren't others.
Yours is a good post though, apart from that (deliberate?) reading blunder which you sadly use to make it personal again. Let's not do that this time.
Will reply more later.

 

[Stingray34]

Re:

@stingray: a more positive word for 'innuendo' is 'relevant contextual information'.

Here's an example of that, from 1989:

Amgen sold about $16 million worth of its new anti-anemia biotechnology drug in June, the first month of its introduction, enabling the Thousand Oaks biotechnology company to post a $835,000 profit for its first quarter that ended June 30.

The drug, erythropoietin (EPO), is considered by many financial analysts as the next blockbuster biotech drug because of its impressive results in combating chronic anemia in patients suffering from kidney disease.

But some physicians warn that sales of the drug may be slower than expected because EPO is expensive and Medicare has agreed to pick up only a portion of the cost.

"Very few people are getting the drug unless they are buying it on their own," said Kenneth Kleinman, a Van Nuys physician. At one local kidney dialysis clinic, he said, only about 15 of 50 patients who need the drug are receiving it, and only because they are wealthy enough to afford it.
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/business/fi-164_1_biotechnology-drug

so,
1989, anemia, kidney problems, wealthy enough to afford it..
anybody know anybody who ticks these boxes?

I'll take your 'relevant contextual information' and raise you a 'circumstantial conspiracy theory' and a colloquial 'drawing a long bow.'

If your plan is some super investigative journalism to win a Pulitzer, this one ain't it. Try something interesting and real instead, like 'the inside story on The Donald's hair.'

 

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

...
No, I have absolutely no opinion on Mottet. He may have doped, he may not have doped.

in which case apologies.
I meant pcmg76 of course. He's been making the mottet claim over and over again.
edit: i see he's now backtracking on it. better late than never

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
I'll take your 'relevant contextual information' and raise you a 'circumstantial conspiracy theory' and a colloquial 'drawing a long bow.'

but isn't 90% of what's discussed in the Clinic classifiable as such?
Lance discussions also started as 'circumstantial conspiracy theory'.
Cancellara's motor discusion is one big 'circumstantial conspiracy theory'.
Wiggins on Aicar? 'circumstantial conspiracy theory'.
Froome's bilharzia a cover story for bloodmanipilations? another 'circumstantial conspiracy theory'.

yet in those cases we only hear the most stubborn of Sky/Cancellara fans complain that it's 'rubbish' and 'circumstantial conspiracy theories', let alone that the thread should be closed.
Surely you don't want to side with those posters, do you?

 

[sniper]

Re:

I'm merely echoing what Lemond has said about his kidney and anemia in different interviews.
If you find my narrative phoney, you find Lemond's narrative phoney.

 

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

This whole thing seems to be circulating around the rumour of LeMond bringing EPO to Europe.

sorry, but no, it doesn't.
the only reason why the rumor is on the table again is because the likes of you and Red Flanders are putting in a constant effort to deny its existence or pretend it's limited to Dhaenens.

TBH it doesn't make it any more true just because it has been repeated, that is the nature of rumours and bits get added on as they go.

agreed. and i agreed the previous five times you said this.

Sniper wanted the EPO rumour addressed and it was, by a few people, inclduing myself.

first you pretended the rumor didnt exist. You backtracked on that, pretending it was only Dhaenens. I assume you've now backtracked on that as well, and have come to realize it was more widespread. Now maybe we can move on and stop making it solely about the rumor. Fact 1: The rumor existed. Fact 2: the rumor might be true. Fact 3: the rumor might be false.
See, that's easy.

I will happily discuss the EPO angle

now that's news. You read it in the Clinic first.

When exaclty is LeMond supposed to have started taking EPO, like at what exact point? The Giro in 89? before then? at PDM in 88? when was the alleged start point?

fair questions. I think only Lemond can answer it. But we can speculate. I see two main possibilities (provided he used it at all):

a. It's possible that the Giro 1989 (Vanmol's iron shots) was the first time he used it.

b. Maybe he used it earlier (86/87). Last thing I read about EPO (and I posted about this) is that pre-clinical trial EPO was circulating already in 1986, and at that early point it circulated mainly in Mexico and the US. So one-kidney Lemond (possibly through his Mexican soigneur Jacome and/or his MD father in law D. Morris) would've been in a good position to get early access. (which, mind, is no evidence he used it, just saying he could probably have gotten it fairly easily).

what do you think?

I also would like to say Van Mol is being grossly overplayed here, if he was that vital to LeMond, he would have worked with him beyond ADR. He didn't and from what was about at the time, he didn't work much with LeMond ar ADR either.

What does 'grossly overplayed' mean? All that's being said about Vanmol is that
a. Vanmol was one of three (or four) doctors singled out by Donati as pivotal in (viz. responsible for) the early spread of EPO in the peloton, starting in the late 80s.
b. Donati claims that Vanmol administered Halupczok with EPO in 1989, when he became amateur world champion. Halupczkok died in 1990 from cardiac arrest, which was, according to Donati caused by his EPO abuse.
c. Vanmol was a key figure in the carreers of De Cauwer (later busted for PED-trafficking), Eddie Planckaert (later admitting EPO use) and Dirk Demol (later outed as a fixer in one of the USADA affidavits).
d. Vanmol allegedly administered the famous 'iron shots' to Lemond in the Giro of 1989.

So no, I wouldn't say Vanmol's role is overplayed. Well, unless you mean your own hammering on about Vanmol saying Lemond was clean, and preseting that (lol) as evidence that Lemond was clean. Never mind that in '88 Vanmol also claimed Planckaert was clean, Planckaert who later admitted to using EPO. Like with Mottet, seems you got the basics wrong again here.

Also on Mottet, he admitted to trying amphetamines once I think. Outside of crits and very minor races, amphetamines were hardly used as they were easily detected in that era. Paul Kimmage tried amphetamines a few times but I wouldn't lable him a doper, likewise I wouldn't label a rider a doper because they tried something once. Kimmage rode all 4 of his GTs without resorting to illegal methods.

that's a rather elaborate way of saying "I was plain wrong". But I appreciate the backtrack.

Also clear a lot of people commenting have no clue about LeMonds career. Going back to US in 1990 because of a virus, yes he did in early April I think.

I posted that bit about the virus without comment. Yet here you are making it about the poster. Anyway, as Franklin posted, Lemond had more ooc training periods in the US which at the time after which he came back stronger. So sure, the 'unidentified virus', two months before the start of the Tour, might not have had much to do with doping. But seems fair enough to discuss it.

But guess what, he still sucked in May at the Tour de Trump and then at the Giro.

I know he sucked in the Tour de Trump. I said that myself one page back, but no surprise you missed it.

Sniper, LeMonds career didnt end in 1991, he continued on until 1994.

I never said it did. That was only your painful (unless deliberate) misreading of my post. Backtrack noted.

I cant believe some people don't even know the basics

like you with mottet and vanmol. Indeed, unbelievable.

sniper didn't even know LeMond had been shot

sure. And there must have been a time when you too didn't know. Until you heard/read about it. Guess what, same here. And how is this relevant to the discussion? It's not. Its you making it about me. It's not about me.

and then suggested it was staged so LeMond could dope. :eek

I wish I had, but sadly, I did not. But I won't hold it against you. You've backtracked enough for today.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

I personally don't think he did do EPO - definitely wouldn't be sure he didn't take anabolics mind.

His lack of consistency regarding doping is the worst though.

Morally and ethically, in other areas of his life, he appears to happily stray into the red zone.

I'm interested in this bit. Care to expand on what you know?

No idea about EPO - In my opinion he never done the stuff.

Roids and other things in my opinion he done.

One thing I know from some second hand conversations is that he has a wee bit of a drinking problem. Maybe that is what thehog was talking about.

 

[sniper]

To get back to this:

...His "entourage" didn't seem to exist.

This is a screenshot from a page from Edward Pickering's "The Yellow Jersey Club"

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

For some unknown reason folks can't even consider the Drunken Master might have been on the PEDS. He is beyond reproach. Can not be cross examined, can't be called out for being a hypocrite but he can drunk dial shop owners and brow beat the crap out of them.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

I'm merely echoing what Lemond has said about his kidney and anemia in different interviews.

If you find my narrative phoney, you find Lemond's narrative phoney.

Maybe it is time to address the substance of my arguments. You are the only one that is trying to link LeMond to EPO based on an anecdote from his childhood/ adolescence. The issue is that you are using flawed scientific/ medical logic to do so. There is no link between chronic kidney infections and anemia. Anemia is caused by kidney failure, not infection. That is a big difference. One requires antibiotics, the other dialysis and eventually kidney transplant. Which category did LeMond belong to?