LeMond III

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Here is a little primer about pyelonephritis (kidney infection).

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/kidney-infections-symptoms-and-treatments

Most cases of pyelonephritis are complications of common bladder infections. Bacteria enter the body from the skin around the urethra. They then travel up the urethra to the bladder. Sometimes, bacteria escape the bladder and urethra, traveling up the ureters to one or both kidneys.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Maybe it is time to address the substance of my arguments. You are the only one that is trying to link LeMond to EPO based on an anecdote from his childhood/ adolescence. The issue is that you are using flawed scientific/ medical logic to do so. There is no link between chronic kidney infections and anemia. Anemia is caused by kidney failure, not infection. That is a big difference. One requires antibiotics, the other dialysis and eventually kidney transplant. Which category did LeMond belong to?

Again, neither i nor you have any idea in what condition Lemond's kidneys really were.
All we can go by are his own anecdotes, according to which
(a) he had only one kidney
(b) he had chronic kidney infections as a child
(c) he had anemia during the Giro 1989

He may have been full of it there, he may have been telling the truth, he may have been telling half-truths.
Only the Lord knows what happened to the other kidney, or when he lost it. Only God knows if he still had chronic kidney infections as an adult (although the word "chronic" seems to suggest it). Only God knows if he had anemia at other points during his carreer.

So stop pinning the lack of clarity on me. And stop pretending his kidney issues aren't relevant to the EPO discussion. Whether you like it or not, it is relevant contextual info, even though (as I've said many times) it's only one of many pieces of relevant contextual info. It means zilch in isolation.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Here is a little primer about pyelonephritis (kidney infection).

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/kidney-infections-symptoms-and-treatments

Most cases of pyelonephritis are complications of common bladder infections. Bacteria enter the body from the skin around the urethra. They then travel up the urethra to the bladder. Sometimes, bacteria escape the bladder and urethra, traveling up the ureters to one or both kidneys.

Y'all need to stop focusing on his Kidneys and check out his liver.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: LeMond

I'm working on a new TV script I have high hopes for. I need some criticism on it and, as I don't have any friends because I spend all my time and tiny brain-power chasing non-events and other ephemera on the net, I can only reach out to you guys.

I call it Relevant Contextual Information Girl.

I know the title's a bit leaden....can anyone suggest a better one, maybe just two alliteral words?

Maybe I can go to Minnesota and ask this Greg guy you're always on about. I'll even ask him straight to his face if he doped and trafficked experimental kidney drugs to Europe, to save some of you the trouble. May as well get it from the horse's mouth instead of inane forum rambling, huh?

Like Krisnamurti said, "Reason cannot solve the problems reason presents; reason always has an interest." Smart guy, no? What, in your cases, is your interest?

 

[Zypherov]

There is absolutely no way that Lemond used ever EPO. But just for the sake of argument, if he did, it was only micro-doses. His performances do not reflect the use of EPO in any way whatsoever.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

Maybe it is time to address the substance of my arguments. You are the only one that is trying to link LeMond to EPO based on an anecdote from his childhood/ adolescence. The issue is that you are using flawed scientific/ medical logic to do so. There is no link between chronic kidney infections and anemia. Anemia is caused by kidney failure, not infection. That is a big difference. One requires antibiotics, the other dialysis and eventually kidney transplant. Which category did LeMond belong to?

Again, neither i nor you have any idea in what condition Lemond's kidneys really were.
All we can go by are his own anecdotes, according to which
(a) he had only one kidney
(b) he had chronic kidney infections as a child
(c) he had anemia during the Giro 1989

He may have been full of it there, he may have been telling the truth, he may have been telling half-truths.
Only the Lord knows what happened to the other kidney, or when he lost it. Only God knows if he still had chronic kidney infections as an adult (although the word "chronic" seems to suggest it). Only God knows if he had anemia at other points during his carreer.

So stop pinning the lack of clarity on me. And stop pretending his kidney issues aren't relevant to the EPO discussion. Whether you like it or not, it is relevant contextual info, even though (as I've said many times) it's only one of many pieces of relevant contextual info. It means zilch in isolation.

Why in your opinion are kidney infections and anemia interlinked? Lemond never claimed so, and it appears to be a medical fallacy to assume they are interlinked.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Again, neither i nor you have any idea in what condition Lemond's kidneys really were.
All we can go by are his own anecdotes, according to which
(a) he had only one kidney
(b) he had chronic kidney infections as a child
(c) he had anemia during the Giro 1989

What more do you want me to say?
He may have been full of **** there, he may have been telling the truth, he may have been telling half-truths.
Only the Lord knows what happened to the other kidney, or when he lost it.
Only God knows if he still had chronic kidney infections as an adult (although the word "chronic" seems to suggest it)
Only God knows if he had anemia at other points during his carreer.

So stop pinning the lack of clarity on me. And stop pretending his kidney issues aren't relevant to the EPO discussion. Whether you like it or not, it is relevant contextual info, even though (as I've said many times) it's only one of many pieces of relevant contextual info. It means zilch in isolation.

If you understood the underlying science of the issues, the answer would be self-evident.

His self-reported childhood kidney disease is totally irrelevant to whether he was taking EPO or not. There is no connection. It means zilch...period. It is a premise based on the false understanding of medicine. Chronic doesn't mean that it happens throughout a person's life. Often times, it is limited to childhood because the patient develops immunity to the pathogen that is initially causing the infection.

 

[Maxiton]

But seriously, folks. As I said way up thread, LeMond might have blood doped in 1986. If so he was within the rules, so why should he volunteer this information? Likewise, aerodynamics, carbon fiber bikes, and cool sunglasses might not be the only new things he brought into the peloton. He might have brought EPO, if some in the peloton are to be believed. If so, he was, again, within the rules, so why would he confess it? With a father-in-law and a wife who were both in medicine and at the races, he could have done both things without leaving any paper trail whatsoever.

If the true binaries in sport are not "dirty"/"clean", but rather winning/losing and cheating/integrity, which I believe to be the case, what does it matter? I can understand LeMond not wanting the notoriety and infamy of having been the one to introduce EPO into the peloton, given what it did to the sport, and the many riders to subsequently die from it. In any case, the reality is that if LeMond was the one who introduced it, under the circumstances there is almost no likelihood this will ever be proved - short of a tell-all book by LeMond or someone close to him.

Even the strongest circumstantial case, assuming one can be made, is not airtight. On the other hand, though, I see no reason why LeMond should be the one rider immune from speculation.

 

[Stingray34]

Re:

But seriously, folks. As I said way up thread, LeMond might have blood doped in 1986. If so he was within the rules, so why should he volunteer this information? Likewise, aerodynamics, carbon fiber bikes, and cool sunglasses might not be the only new things he brought into the peloton. He might have brought EPO, if some in the peloton are to be believed. If so, he was, again, within the rules, so why would he confess it? With a father-in-law and a wife who were both in medicine and at the races, he could have done both things without leaving any paper trail whatsoever.

If the true binaries in sport are not "dirty"/"clean", but rather winning/losing and cheating/integrity, which I believe to be the case, what does it matter? I can understand LeMond not wanting the notoriety and infamy of having been the one to introduce EPO into the peloton, given what it did to the sport, and the many riders to subsequently die from it. In any case, the reality is that if LeMond was the one who introduced it, under the circumstances there is almost no likelihood this will ever be proved - short of a tell-all book by LeMond or someone close to him.

Even the strongest circumstantial case, assuming one can be made, is not airtight. On the other hand, though, I see no reason why LeMond should be the one rider immune from speculation.

Have you ever met LeMond? Do you really think this motor-mouth guy is capable of such Svengali-Fox-PhD-in-cunningness-from-Foxford-University as this?

Y'know, a while back there was this nobody guy who was actually a bit of a big deal for a while. He hated Greg LeMond with a passion that borders on a love of an almost star-crossed kind. Well, this guy actually offered real American dollars, something like 300 Big Ones to anyone, absolutely anyone, who breathed oxygen in or around a bike race in Europe during the late-80s to come out and say something like, "Yup, I saw it. Greg America stuck a big-ass needle in his own butt. He said it was something called ePow or something, made him go real fast. Gave it to a bunch of pals in the peloton. Made them go fast too. Or die, whichever was the case. Some of them who managed to live actually had kidney problems after that. They didn't blame Greg, though. He was just so down-home nice."

Was there any takers? Was there f**k. I guess nobody had an axe to grind in 2001 except this nobody but rich guy at the time. Or maybe no one who has the Greg-doped-and-trafficked-dope-anus-itches-up-the-ying-yang right now actually needed the money back then.

But, y'know; people are strange.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...

you (and djpbaltimore) are simplifying the issue. Lemond, according to Lemond, not only had chronic kidney infections, he also had only one kidney. Now, I'm not an authority on kidney issues, but tell me how is a guy with (a) one kidney and (b) chronic kidney infections, not a kidney patient?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

But seriously, folks. As I said way up thread, LeMond might have blood doped in 1986. If so he was within the rules, so why should he volunteer this information? Likewise, aerodynamics, carbon fiber bikes, and cool sunglasses might not be the only new things he brought into the peloton. He might have brought EPO, if some in the peloton are to be believed. If so, he was, again, within the rules, so why would he confess it? With a father-in-law and a wife who were both in medicine and at the races, he could have done both things without leaving any paper trail whatsoever.

If the true binaries in sport are not "dirty"/"clean", but rather winning/losing and cheating/integrity, which I believe to be the case, what does it matter? I can understand LeMond not wanting the notoriety and infamy of having been the one to introduce EPO into the peloton, given what it did to the sport, and the many riders to subsequently die from it. In any case, the reality is that if LeMond was the one who introduced it, under the circumstances there is almost no likelihood this will ever be proved - short of a tell-all book by LeMond or someone close to him.

Even the strongest circumstantial case, assuming one can be made, is not airtight. On the other hand, though, I see no reason why LeMond should be the one rider immune from speculation.

Have you ever met LeMond? Do you really think this motor-mouth guy is capable of such Svengali-Fox-PhD-in-cunningness-from-Foxford-University as this?

Y'know, a while back there was this nobody guy who was actually a bit of a big deal for a while. He hated Greg LeMond with a passion that borders on a love of an almost star-crossed kind. Well, this guy actually offered real American dollars, something like 300 Big Ones to anyone, absolutely anyone, who breathed oxygen in or around a bike race in Europe during the late-80s to come out and say something like, "Yup, I saw it. Greg America stuck a big-ass needle in his own butt. He said it was something called ePow or something, made him go real fast. Gave it to a bunch of pals in the peloton. Made them go fast too. Or die, whichever was the case. Some of them who managed to live actually had kidney problems after that. They didn't blame Greg, though. He was just so down-home nice."

Was there any takers? Was there f**k. I guess nobody had an axe to grind in 2001 except this nobody but rich guy at the time. Or maybe no one who has the Greg-doped-and-trafficked-dope-anus-itches-up-the-ying-yang right now actually needed the money back then.

But, y'know; people are strange.

The big ole 300 large. Great argument against with respect to EPO. Did he offer 300 large for everything including those other thingies?

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

But seriously, folks. As I said way up thread, LeMond might have blood doped in 1986. If so he was within the rules, so why should he volunteer this information? Likewise, aerodynamics, carbon fiber bikes, and cool sunglasses might not be the only new things he brought into the peloton. He might have brought EPO, if some in the peloton are to be believed. If so, he was, again, within the rules, so why would he confess it? With a father-in-law and a wife who were both in medicine and at the races, he could have done both things without leaving any paper trail whatsoever.

If the true binaries in sport are not "dirty"/"clean", but rather winning/losing and cheating/integrity, which I believe to be the case, what does it matter? I can understand LeMond not wanting the notoriety and infamy of having been the one to introduce EPO into the peloton, given what it did to the sport, and the many riders to subsequently die from it. In any case, the reality is that if LeMond was the one who introduced it, under the circumstances there is almost no likelihood this will ever be proved - short of a tell-all book by LeMond or someone close to him.

Even the strongest circumstantial case, assuming one can be made, is not airtight. On the other hand, though, I see no reason why LeMond should be the one rider immune from speculation.

Have you ever met LeMond? Do you really think this motor-mouth guy is capable of such Svengali-Fox-PhD-in-cunningness-from-Foxford-University as this?

Y'know, a while back there was this nobody guy who was actually a bit of a big deal for a while. He hated Greg LeMond with a passion that borders on a love of an almost star-crossed kind. Well, this guy actually offered real American dollars, something like 300 Big Ones to anyone, absolutely anyone, who breathed oxygen in or around a bike race in Europe during the late-80s to come out and say something like, "Yup, I saw it. Greg America stuck a big-ass needle in his own butt. He said it was something called ePow or something, made him go real fast. Gave it to a bunch of pals in the peloton. Made them go fast too. Or die, whichever was the case. Some of them who managed to live actually had kidney problems after that. They didn't blame Greg, though. He was just so down-home nice."

Was there any takers? Was there f**k. I guess nobody had an axe to grind in 2001 except this nobody but rich guy at the time. Or maybe no one who has the Greg-doped-and-trafficked-dope-anus-itches-up-the-ying-yang right now actually needed the money back then.

But, y'know; people are strange.

Just to be clear, by "introduced" I don't mean that he actually gave EPO to anybody. I mean that somehow someone got wind of it - hence the rumors - and went looking for the stuff themselves. And, having looked, found it.

I wouldn't think it would take any more genius to think up using EPO than it would to realize the importance of aerodynamics or carbon fiber. I mean, you would think either of those things would have been discovered by the peloton, but it took LeMond to do it. And yet LeMond was no more an aeronautical engineer or an expert in materials science than he was a doctor. He had advisors, which I assume were the source of all his innovations.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Y'know, a while back there was this nobody guy who was actually a bit of a big deal for a while. He hated Greg LeMond with a passion that borders on a love of an almost star-crossed kind. Well, this guy actually offered real American dollars, something like 300 Big Ones to anyone, absolutely anyone, who breathed oxygen in or around a bike race in Europe during the late-80s to come out and say something like, "Yup, I saw it. Greg America stuck a big-ass needle in his own butt. He said it was something called ePow or something, made him go real fast. Gave it to a bunch of pals in the peloton. Made them go fast too. Or die, whichever was the case. Some of them who managed to live actually had kidney problems after that. They didn't blame Greg, though. He was just so down-home nice."

could you tell me what/who the source of this rumor is?
honest question. I've only seen/heard Race Radio talk about this, but I haven't really looked at it closely, so maybe i missed something. If you have other sources, I'd be happy to know, and it would give the argument more weight, imo.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

But seriously, folks. As I said way up thread, LeMond might have blood doped in 1986. If so he was within the rules, so why should he volunteer this information? Likewise, aerodynamics, carbon fiber bikes, and cool sunglasses might not be the only new things he brought into the peloton. He might have brought EPO, if some in the peloton are to be believed. If so, he was, again, within the rules, so why would he confess it? With a father-in-law and a wife who were both in medicine and at the races, he could have done both things without leaving any paper trail whatsoever.

If the true binaries in sport are not "dirty"/"clean", but rather winning/losing and cheating/integrity, which I believe to be the case, what does it matter? I can understand LeMond not wanting the notoriety and infamy of having been the one to introduce EPO into the peloton, given what it did to the sport, and the many riders to subsequently die from it. In any case, the reality is that if LeMond was the one who introduced it, under the circumstances there is almost no likelihood this will ever be proved - short of a tell-all book by LeMond or someone close to him.

Even the strongest circumstantial case, assuming one can be made, is not airtight. On the other hand, though, I see no reason why LeMond should be the one rider immune from speculation.

Have you ever met LeMond? Do you really think this motor-mouth guy is capable of such Svengali-Fox-PhD-in-cunningness-from-Foxford-University as this?

Y'know, a while back there was this nobody guy who was actually a bit of a big deal for a while. He hated Greg LeMond with a passion that borders on a love of an almost star-crossed kind. Well, this guy actually offered real American dollars, something like 300 Big Ones to anyone, absolutely anyone, who breathed oxygen in or around a bike race in Europe during the late-80s to come out and say something like, "Yup, I saw it. Greg America stuck a big-ass needle in his own butt. He said it was something called ePow or something, made him go real fast. Gave it to a bunch of pals in the peloton. Made them go fast too. Or die, whichever was the case. Some of them who managed to live actually had kidney problems after that. They didn't blame Greg, though. He was just so down-home nice."

Was there any takers? Was there f**k. I guess nobody had an axe to grind in 2001 except this nobody but rich guy at the time. Or maybe no one who has the Greg-doped-and-trafficked-dope-anus-itches-up-the-ying-yang right now actually needed the money back then.

But, y'know; people are strange.

Just to be clear, by "introduced" I don't mean that he actually gave EPO to anybody. I mean that somehow someone got wind of it - hence the rumors - and went looking for the stuff themselves. And, having looked, found it.

I wouldn't think it would take any more genius to think up using EPO than it would to realize the importance of aerodynamics or carbon fiber. I mean, you would think either of those things would have been discovered by the peloton, but it took LeMond to do it. And yet LeMond was no more an aeronautical engineer or an expert in materials science than he was a doctor. He had advisors, which I assume were the source of all his innovations.

Sure, Greg was a professional bike racer. He had lots of interested parties around him from the bike industry. They had some good ideas and products he thought might be worthwhile in his line of work. He didn't take drugs for a living. He didn't have cutting-edge gene-splicing blood substitute/stimulating lab geniuses determined to get their life-saving product to the market of go-fast bike riders. His father-in-law was an MD. Wow. My mother's an old english sheep dog but my hair doesn't cover my eyes.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

But seriously, folks. As I said way up thread, LeMond might have blood doped in 1986. If so he was within the rules, so why should he volunteer this information? Likewise, aerodynamics, carbon fiber bikes, and cool sunglasses might not be the only new things he brought into the peloton. He might have brought EPO, if some in the peloton are to be believed. If so, he was, again, within the rules, so why would he confess it? With a father-in-law and a wife who were both in medicine and at the races, he could have done both things without leaving any paper trail whatsoever.

If the true binaries in sport are not "dirty"/"clean", but rather winning/losing and cheating/integrity, which I believe to be the case, what does it matter? I can understand LeMond not wanting the notoriety and infamy of having been the one to introduce EPO into the peloton, given what it did to the sport, and the many riders to subsequently die from it. In any case, the reality is that if LeMond was the one who introduced it, under the circumstances there is almost no likelihood this will ever be proved - short of a tell-all book by LeMond or someone close to him.

Even the strongest circumstantial case, assuming one can be made, is not airtight. On the other hand, though, I see no reason why LeMond should be the one rider immune from speculation.

Have you ever met LeMond? Do you really think this motor-mouth guy is capable of such Svengali-Fox-PhD-in-cunningness-from-Foxford-University as this?

Y'know, a while back there was this nobody guy who was actually a bit of a big deal for a while. He hated Greg LeMond with a passion that borders on a love of an almost star-crossed kind. Well, this guy actually offered real American dollars, something like 300 Big Ones to anyone, absolutely anyone, who breathed oxygen in or around a bike race in Europe during the late-80s to come out and say something like, "Yup, I saw it. Greg America stuck a big-ass needle in his own butt. He said it was something called ePow or something, made him go real fast. Gave it to a bunch of pals in the peloton. Made them go fast too. Or die, whichever was the case. Some of them who managed to live actually had kidney problems after that. They didn't blame Greg, though. He was just so down-home nice."

Was there any takers? Was there f**k. I guess nobody had an axe to grind in 2001 except this nobody but rich guy at the time. Or maybe no one who has the Greg-doped-and-trafficked-dope-anus-itches-up-the-ying-yang right now actually needed the money back then.

But, y'know; people are strange.

Just to be clear, by "introduced" I don't mean that he actually gave EPO to anybody. I mean that somehow someone got wind of it - hence the rumors - and went looking for the stuff themselves. And, having looked, found it.

I wouldn't think it would take any more genius to think up using EPO than it would to realize the importance of aerodynamics or carbon fiber. I mean, you would think either of those things would have been discovered by the peloton, but it took LeMond to do it. And yet LeMond was no more an aeronautical engineer or an expert in materials science than he was a doctor. He had advisors, which I assume were the source of all his innovations.

Sure, Greg was a professional bike racer. He had lots of interested parties around him from the bike industry. They had some good ideas and products he thought might be worthwhile in his line of work. He didn't take drugs for a living. He didn't have cutting-edge gene-splicing blood substitute/stimulating lab geniuses determined to get their life-saving product to the market of go-fast bike riders. His father-in-law was an MD. Wow. My mother's an old english sheep dog but my hair doesn't cover my eyes.

Go-fast bike riders and other athletes are what's known as a "vertical market". Amgen, holder of the patent on EPO (and nowadays sponsor of the Tour of California) is based in LeMond's home state, California. How do you know what relationship they have with bike racing, how far back it goes, or whether it originates with LeMond (or someone close to him)?

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

But seriously, folks. As I said way up thread, LeMond might have blood doped in 1986. If so he was within the rules, so why should he volunteer this information? Likewise, aerodynamics, carbon fiber bikes, and cool sunglasses might not be the only new things he brought into the peloton. He might have brought EPO, if some in the peloton are to be believed. If so, he was, again, within the rules, so why would he confess it? With a father-in-law and a wife who were both in medicine and at the races, he could have done both things without leaving any paper trail whatsoever.

If the true binaries in sport are not "dirty"/"clean", but rather winning/losing and cheating/integrity, which I believe to be the case, what does it matter? I can understand LeMond not wanting the notoriety and infamy of having been the one to introduce EPO into the peloton, given what it did to the sport, and the many riders to subsequently die from it. In any case, the reality is that if LeMond was the one who introduced it, under the circumstances there is almost no likelihood this will ever be proved - short of a tell-all book by LeMond or someone close to him.

Even the strongest circumstantial case, assuming one can be made, is not airtight. On the other hand, though, I see no reason why LeMond should be the one rider immune from speculation.

Have you ever met LeMond? Do you really think this motor-mouth guy is capable of such Svengali-Fox-PhD-in-cunningness-from-Foxford-University as this?

Y'know, a while back there was this nobody guy who was actually a bit of a big deal for a while. He hated Greg LeMond with a passion that borders on a love of an almost star-crossed kind. Well, this guy actually offered real American dollars, something like 300 Big Ones to anyone, absolutely anyone, who breathed oxygen in or around a bike race in Europe during the late-80s to come out and say something like, "Yup, I saw it. Greg America stuck a big-ass needle in his own butt. He said it was something called ePow or something, made him go real fast. Gave it to a bunch of pals in the peloton. Made them go fast too. Or die, whichever was the case. Some of them who managed to live actually had kidney problems after that. They didn't blame Greg, though. He was just so down-home nice."

Was there any takers? Was there f**k. I guess nobody had an axe to grind in 2001 except this nobody but rich guy at the time. Or maybe no one who has the Greg-doped-and-trafficked-dope-anus-itches-up-the-ying-yang right now actually needed the money back then.

But, y'know; people are strange.

Just to be clear, by "introduced" I don't mean that he actually gave EPO to anybody. I mean that somehow someone got wind of it - hence the rumors - and went looking for the stuff themselves. And, having looked, found it.

I wouldn't think it would take any more genius to think up using EPO than it would to realize the importance of aerodynamics or carbon fiber. I mean, you would think either of those things would have been discovered by the peloton, but it took LeMond to do it. And yet LeMond was no more an aeronautical engineer or an expert in materials science than he was a doctor. He had advisors, which I assume were the source of all his innovations.

Sure, Greg was a professional bike racer. He had lots of interested parties around him from the bike industry. They had some good ideas and products he thought might be worthwhile in his line of work. He didn't take drugs for a living. He didn't have cutting-edge gene-splicing blood substitute/stimulating lab geniuses determined to get their life-saving product to the market of go-fast bike riders. His father-in-law was an MD. Wow. My mother's an old english sheep dog but my hair doesn't cover my eyes.

Go-fast bike riders and other athletes are what's known as a "vertical market". Amgen, holder of the patent on EPO (and nowadays sponsor of the Tour of California) is based in LeMond's home state, California. How do you know what relationship they have with bike racing, how far back it goes, or whether it originates with LeMond (or someone close to him)?

I don't. Do you? We need to get Steve Dunleavy and Inside Edition onto this, pronto!

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

Y'know, a while back there was this nobody guy who was actually a bit of a big deal for a while. He hated Greg LeMond with a passion that borders on a love of an almost star-crossed kind. Well, this guy actually offered real American dollars, something like 300 Big Ones to anyone, absolutely anyone, who breathed oxygen in or around a bike race in Europe during the late-80s to come out and say something like, "Yup, I saw it. Greg America stuck a big-ass needle in his own butt. He said it was something called ePow or something, made him go real fast. Gave it to a bunch of pals in the peloton. Made them go fast too. Or die, whichever was the case. Some of them who managed to live actually had kidney problems after that. They didn't blame Greg, though. He was just so down-home nice."

could you tell me what/who the source of this rumor is?
honest question. I've only seen/heard Race Radio talk about this, but I haven't really looked at it closely, so maybe i missed something. If you have other sources, I'd be happy to know, and it would give the argument more weight, imo.

It's no rumour. IM our fellow forum-user and former LA PA 'Texpat'. He'll set you straight. He's now a bike shop owner in NZ.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: LeMond

This one might help orientate

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2013/01/17/mike-anderson-lance-armstrong

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: LeMond

LeMond's team doctor was giving out bogus anemia diagnoses and injecting riders with EPO in 1998. A year later, right before LeMond's rise to the top again, his team diagnoses him with anemia and gives him injections. Ex pros point to LeMond as one of the first riders who used EPO. LeMond, who has positioned himself as a spokesman against modern riders doping, steadfastly refuses to say an ill word about any of his contemporaries who doped, even though they "stole" wins from him.

Jeebus! How hard is it to put one and one together. If this were anyone else it would be common Clinic knowledge that he doped and members would ridicule anyone who questioned it for being naive, stupid, a fanboy, or some combination of the three.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

It's no rumour. IM our fellow forum-user and former LA PA 'Texpat'. He'll set you straight. He's now a bike shop owner in NZ.

Just as Armstrong might be a bit biased against LeMond, Anderson might be a bit biased against Armstrong, ya think?

 

[kwikki]

Ah...now it's 'ex-pros'. A few pages back it was the entire peloton. Can you point us to where these ex-pros are pointing to Lemond, please.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

It's no rumour. IM our fellow forum-user and former LA PA 'Texpat'. He'll set you straight. He's now a bike shop owner in NZ.

Just as Armstrong might be a bit biased against LeMond, Anderson might be a bit biased against Armstrong, ya think?

You wrote the book on this kind of intrigue, Prince.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

...

you (and djpbaltimore) are simplifying the issue. Lemond, according to Lemond, not only had chronic kidney infections, he also had only one kidney. Now, I'm not an authority on kidney issues, but tell me how is a guy with (a) one kidney and (b) chronic kidney infections, not a kidney patient?

It has been explained several times by several posters quite articulately. That was not a simplification as you would like to call it, but an explanation that you fail to understand. As to the bolded, that is the only correct conclusion you have drawn on LeMond's kidney issues so far.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

Sure, Greg was a professional bike racer. He had lots of interested parties around him from the bike industry. They had some good ideas and products he thought might be worthwhile in his line of work. He didn't take drugs for a living. He didn't have cutting-edge gene-splicing blood substitute/stimulating lab geniuses determined to get their life-saving product to the market of go-fast bike riders. His father-in-law was an MD. Wow. My mother's an old english sheep dog but my hair doesn't cover my eyes.

Go-fast bike riders and other athletes are what's known as a "vertical market". Amgen, holder of the patent on EPO (and nowadays sponsor of the Tour of California) is based in LeMond's home state, California. How do you know what relationship they have with bike racing, how far back it goes, or whether it originates with LeMond (or someone close to him)?

I don't. Do you? We need to get Steve Dunleavy and Inside Edition onto this, pronto!

I'm not the one stating, unequivocally, "He didn't have cutting-edge . . . blood . . . stimulating lab geniuses determined to get their . . . product to the market of go-fast bike riders", you are. I'm just asking how you know.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

Ok, these undergraduate epistemological-I-got-you-now games are tiring. I graduated Alpha Beta Not from Abnormal State several lifetimes ago, so I won't bother with Plato's 'knowledge is justified true belief' treatise, so I'll just repeat the bit about my mom and that my hair doesn't cover my eyes. Woof woof.

For what it's worth, LeMond has lived in Minnesota and Montana for decades, not Amgen country. His team didn't have doctors. It's not as 'integrated' as today. Don't ask me how I know this unless you want to hear me scream through your WiFi.