LeMond III

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: LeMond

This one might help orientate

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2013/01/17/mike-anderson-lance-armstrong

That article does not mention the 300 large. I remember the story but can't find a media link for it.

If all we have to go by is the word of the private mechanic then that is same as dismissing someone else because their particular info does not match yours.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

Ah...now it's 'ex-pros'. A few pages back it was the entire peloton. Can you point us to where these ex-pros are pointing to Lemond, please.

I've read the thread and have not seen where the entire peloton was coming out with those accusations.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

I'm not the one stating, unequivocally, "He didn't have cutting-edge . . . blood . . . stimulating lab geniuses determined to get their . . . product to the market of go-fast bike riders", you are. I'm just asking how you know.

Because he has meet him before and he knows because he looked in straight into his eye. It was the lack of a tell that came back at him and he knew right then and there ....NOPE no way no how ....NO PEDS for this guy.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

I'm not the one stating, unequivocally, "He didn't have cutting-edge . . . blood . . . stimulating lab geniuses determined to get their . . . product to the market of go-fast bike riders", you are. I'm just asking how you know.

Because he has meet him before and he knows because he looked in straight into his eye. It was the lack of a tell that came back at him and he knew right then and there ....NOPE no way no how ....NO PEDS for this guy.

It was during pillow talk, actually, after we'd done the deed together.

It was so beautiful the night we made...a bed together. You see, my daughter was coming to stay and Greg said he's an expert at flat-pack furniture, so I gave him a good screw...driver and off he went.

It was right then, while we were discussing porn, he said, 'By the way, I never doped; not even nitrate poppers.' I said he's missing out, big-time.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

I'm not the one stating, unequivocally, "He didn't have cutting-edge . . . blood . . . stimulating lab geniuses determined to get their . . . product to the market of go-fast bike riders", you are. I'm just asking how you know.

Because he has meet him before and he knows because he looked in straight into his eye. It was the lack of a tell that came back at him and he knew right then and there ....NOPE no way no how ....NO PEDS for this guy.

It was during pillow talk, actually, after we'd done the deed together.

It was so beautiful the night we made...a bed together. You see, my daughter was coming to stay and Greg said he's an expert at flat-pack furniture, so I gave him a good screw...driver and off he went.

It was right then, while we were discussing porn, he said, 'By the way, I never doped; not even nitrate poppers.' I said he's missing out, big-time.

well played.

 

[sniper]

@stingray: thanks for the link, will look at that later.

wrt Lemond's father-in-law, I don't think you're curious enough.
He was not only an MD, he was (is) a renowned allergist/immunologist - ask Froome how useful that can be - and an ex-surgeon of the US army (so would have had first hand experience with blood transfusions, a.o.).
That's one thing. The other thing is that he was traveling with Lemond to GTs and seems to have been an active part of Lemond's medical team.

 

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

LeMond's team doctor was giving out bogus anemia diagnoses and injecting riders with EPO in 1998. A year later, right before LeMond's rise to the top again, his team diagnoses him with anemia and gives him injections. Ex pros point to LeMond as one of the first riders who used EPO. LeMond, who has positioned himself as a spokesman against modern riders doping, steadfastly refuses to say an ill word about any of his contemporaries who doped, even though they "stole" wins from him.

Jeebus! How hard is it to put one and one together. If this were anyone else it would be common Clinic knowledge that he doped and members would ridicule anyone who questioned it for being naive, stupid, a fanboy, or some combination of the three.

The defense of Lemond earlier in this thread and in other Lemond threads has always reeked of old school omerta. One example (out of many) from an old Lemond thread. Just watch it unfold, it's creepy almost:

I was told, face to face, by one of the world's top triathlon coaches (multiple world champions at all distances) that by the end of his career, Lemond's blood was so thick, that he was being woken up every hour & walked for 5-10 minutes, so as to stop him dying in his sleep.

Yet another of example of how Triathletes know nothing about pro cycling, yet try to pretend they do.

Lemond never took EPO, if he did he would not been dropped by the legions of dopers who did.

This triathlon coach pretended he knew a lot about cycling. In fact, he pretended his way to coaching more than one cyclist to become world champion on the track. He was a cycling coach first & foremost before he realized how much money a lot of triathletes have.

Lemond did pretty well when EPO first started.

Are you a Lance Armstrong Lawyer?
or Public Relations person?

Ha ha - far from it. I can't stand Armstrong.
As soon as I read his book, I made my mind up.

Your friend, who coaches guys who ride bikes in Speedo's, is full of $hit.

Lemond was barely hung on when EPO became standard in the sport.

Without getting emotional, I don't think so. The coach isn't a friend of mine, but I will say this - he is in a position to know, and had no reason to make the story up. He is in his 60's, not some immature guy who wants attention.
Who he coaches these days has more to do with $$, he has done enough hard yards. Who cares if some of them ride in speedos? The world champions didn't.

Lemond's decline wasn't due to other guys being on EPO, that is pretty obvious.

...

Anyhow - I can assure you that the coach a) wasn't snubbed by Lemond, b) wasn't using the 'Lemond doped' angle for personal gain, and c) was well connected enough to know what went on at the very top level.

Or invent what he thought went on.

I am FAR more connected to the professional sport then your "coach" will ever be. It never happened. Complete invention.

Well good for you.

I am telling you what he told me, you don't have to believe it.

 

[Zypherov]

Didn't Lemond take some cocaine along with Fignon prior to a race in Mexico. It's on the banned list now, wasn't back then, so its technically doping.
If he wasn't afraid of a little recreational fun why not amphetamines at the very least ??

 

[GJB123]

Re:

@stingray: thanks for the link, will look at that later.

wrt Lemond's father-in-law, I don't think you're curious enough.
He was not only an MD, he was (is) a renowned allergist/immunologist - ask Froome how useful that can be - and an ex-surgeon of the US army (so would have had first hand experience with blood transfusions, a.o.).
That's one thing. The other thing is that he was traveling with Lemond to GTs and seems to have been an active part of Lemond's medical team.

Ah yes, army guys! Tally ho, ringdingading, we all know how those army guys transfuse left, right and center. That's the way to beat those pesky VC.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

I'm not the one stating, unequivocally, "He didn't have cutting-edge . . . blood . . . stimulating lab geniuses determined to get their . . . product to the market of go-fast bike riders", you are. I'm just asking how you know.

Because he has meet him before and he knows because he looked in straight into his eye. It was the lack of a tell that came back at him and he knew right then and there ....NOPE no way no how ....NO PEDS for this guy.

It was during pillow talk, actually, after we'd done the deed together.

It was so beautiful the night we made...a bed together. You see, my daughter was coming to stay and Greg said he's an expert at flat-pack furniture, so I gave him a good screw...driver and off he went.

It was right then, while we were discussing porn, he said, 'By the way, I never doped; not even nitrate poppers.' I said he's missing out, big-time.

well played.

My only aim is to entertain; one role and tool to play the fool.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

But seriously, folks. As I said way up thread, LeMond might have blood doped in 1986. If so he was within the rules, so why should he volunteer this information? Likewise, aerodynamics, carbon fiber bikes, and cool sunglasses might not be the only new things he brought into the peloton. He might have brought EPO, if some in the peloton are to be believed. If so, he was, again, within the rules, so why would he confess it? With a father-in-law and a wife who were both in medicine and at the races, he could have done both things without leaving any paper trail whatsoever.

If the true binaries in sport are not "dirty"/"clean", but rather winning/losing and cheating/integrity, which I believe to be the case, what does it matter? I can understand LeMond not wanting the notoriety and infamy of having been the one to introduce EPO into the peloton, given what it did to the sport, and the many riders to subsequently die from it. In any case, the reality is that if LeMond was the one who introduced it, under the circumstances there is almost no likelihood this will ever be proved - short of a tell-all book by LeMond or someone close to him.

Even the strongest circumstantial case, assuming one can be made, is not airtight. On the other hand, though, I see no reason why LeMond should be the one rider immune from speculation.

Have you ever met LeMond? Do you really think this motor-mouth guy is capable of such Svengali-Fox-PhD-in-cunningness-from-Foxford-University as this?

Y'know, a while back there was this nobody guy who was actually a bit of a big deal for a while. He hated Greg LeMond with a passion that borders on a love of an almost star-crossed kind. Well, this guy actually offered real American dollars, something like 300 Big Ones to anyone, absolutely anyone, who breathed oxygen in or around a bike race in Europe during the late-80s to come out and say something like, "Yup, I saw it. Greg America stuck a big-ass needle in his own butt. He said it was something called ePow or something, made him go real fast. Gave it to a bunch of pals in the peloton. Made them go fast too. Or die, whichever was the case. Some of them who managed to live actually had kidney problems after that. They didn't blame Greg, though. He was just so down-home nice."

Was there any takers? Was there f**k. I guess nobody had an axe to grind in 2001 except this nobody but rich guy at the time. Or maybe no one who has the Greg-doped-and-trafficked-dope-anus-itches-up-the-ying-yang right now actually needed the money back then.

But, y'know; people are strange.

Just to be clear, by "introduced" I don't mean that he actually gave EPO to anybody. I mean that somehow someone got wind of it - hence the rumors - and went looking for the stuff themselves. And, having looked, found it.

I wouldn't think it would take any more genius to think up using EPO than it would to realize the importance of aerodynamics or carbon fiber. I mean, you would think either of those things would have been discovered by the peloton, but it took LeMond to do it. And yet LeMond was no more an aeronautical engineer or an expert in materials science than he was a doctor. He had advisors, which I assume were the source of all his innovations.

...in its day EPO was a holy grail drug ( and rightfully so ) ...I would be very surprised if there was a doctor on the planet who was not aware of it ( assuming they were keeping up on developments on even a reasonable level )...

Cheers

 

[Stingray34]

Re:

@stingray: thanks for the link, will look at that later.

wrt Lemond's father-in-law, I don't think you're curious enough.
He was not only an MD, he was (is) a renowned allergist/immunologist - ask Froome how useful that can be - and an ex-surgeon of the US army (so would have had first hand experience with blood transfusions, a.o.).
That's one thing. The other thing is that he was traveling with Lemond to GTs and seems to have been an active part of Lemond's medical team.

So Greg's FIL is Hawkeye Peirce - how cool is that!

Y'know what, fair play - I didn't know that about Greg's family background. You've done a good job there. You've even dredged up posts by Eva Maria - good lord! - that takes some serious internet search skills that I will never possess.

But I have to ask you this: what is it that convinces you Greg's 'story', his career, is built on lies like a certain other American? Where did this desire to search come from? If you're onto something true and real, then great and God bless - I don't wan't to be fooled, either, or see someone receiving ill-gotten gains. Some part of me thinks, no - feels - that some people need an enemy, a tall poppy to bring down, because it was so great to see an obvious one brought to heel, and so addictive that we need that rush of conviction all the time now.

We've seen something similar in a good number of posters here. After the hated Gorgon was beheaded, the Titan smothered and banished, the rush was so delectable a constant stream of easy-but-big victims was desired.

I really hope this isn't the motivation here.

Yes, I admit it - I discovered cycling as a 13 year old when LeMond was a big champion, and I rode on his every exploit and victory. I loved the guy! Still do. He was the best physical alter-ego I could ever have hoped for. Maybe I'm invested in him like so many did with another guy a few years later. I'd like to think I'm smarter than that, because I never liked the brash kid much. I wanted to like his comeback, but it didn't pass what we call in Australia 'the pub test.' A pub is a bar in Australia, but much more than that. No BS may be admitted into a pub. That's the best way to explain it. He was doping. Cheating. It was obvious. I was glad he lived to ride again, but....

But he made a career on a lie. A conglomerate. The LeMond shenanigans came later, and I wasn't paying much attention by then.

Did LeMond introduce dope to the pro peloton? Well how the hell do I know?! But it's a proposition that just doesn't pass the pub test.

It's Revisionism. Which is never good. In cycling, history is never written by the winners, just about them. In Greg LeMond's case, his history has been written. Now the book has closed. No revisions necessary.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

@stingray: thanks for the link, will look at that later.

wrt Lemond's father-in-law, I don't think you're curious enough.
He was not only an MD, he was (is) a renowned allergist/immunologist - ask Froome how useful that can be - and an ex-surgeon of the US army (so would have had first hand experience with blood transfusions, a.o.).
That's one thing. The other thing is that he was traveling with Lemond to GTs and seems to have been an active part of Lemond's medical team.

Ah yes, army guys! Tally ho, ringdingading, we all know how those army guys transfuse left, right and center. That's the way to beat those pesky VC.

I thought the kidney and anemia thing was legit? NO?

 

[Maxiton]

Re: LeMond

The defense of Lemond earlier in this thread and in other Lemond threads has always reeked of old school omerta. One example (out of many) from an old Lemond thread. Just watch it unfold, it's creepy almost:

I was told, face to face, by one of the world's top triathlon coaches (multiple world champions at all distances) that by the end of his career, Lemond's blood was so thick, that he was being woken up every hour & walked for 5-10 minutes, so as to stop him dying in his sleep.

Yet another of example of how Triathletes know nothing about pro cycling, yet try to pretend they do.

Lemond never took EPO, if he did he would not been dropped by the legions of dopers who did.

This triathlon coach pretended he knew a lot about cycling. In fact, he pretended his way to coaching more than one cyclist to become world champion on the track. He was a cycling coach first & foremost before he realized how much money a lot of triathletes have.

Lemond did pretty well when EPO first started.

Are you a Lance Armstrong Lawyer?
or Public Relations person?

Ha ha - far from it. I can't stand Armstrong.
As soon as I read his book, I made my mind up.

Your friend, who coaches guys who ride bikes in Speedo's, is full of $hit.

Lemond was barely hung on when EPO became standard in the sport.

Without getting emotional, I don't think so. The coach isn't a friend of mine, but I will say this - he is in a position to know, and had no reason to make the story up. He is in his 60's, not some immature guy who wants attention.
Who he coaches these days has more to do with $$, he has done enough hard yards. Who cares if some of them ride in speedos? The world champions didn't.

Lemond's decline wasn't due to other guys being on EPO, that is pretty obvious.

...

Anyhow - I can assure you that the coach a) wasn't snubbed by Lemond, b) wasn't using the 'Lemond doped' angle for personal gain, and c) was well connected enough to know what went on at the very top level.

Or invent what he thought went on.

I am FAR more connected to the professional sport then your "coach" will ever be. It never happened. Complete invention.

Well good for you.

I am telling you what he told me, you don't have to believe it.

FYI Eva Maria was Race Radio. Eva Maria was the name he used until he became RR.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

@stingray: thanks for the link, will look at that later.

wrt Lemond's father-in-law, I don't think you're curious enough.
He was not only an MD, he was (is) a renowned allergist/immunologist - ask Froome how useful that can be - and an ex-surgeon of the US army (so would have had first hand experience with blood transfusions, a.o.).
That's one thing. The other thing is that he was traveling with Lemond to GTs and seems to have been an active part of Lemond's medical team.

So Greg's FIL is Hawkeye Peirce - how cool is that!

Y'know what, fair play - I didn't know that about Greg's family background. You've done a good job there. You've even dredged up posts by Eva Maria - good lord! - that takes some serious internet search skills that I will never possess.

But I have to ask you this: what is it that convinces you Greg's 'story', his career, is built on lies like a certain other American? Where did this desire to search come from? If you're onto something true and real, then great and God bless - I don't wan't to be fooled, either, or see someone receiving ill-gotten gains. Some part of me thinks, no - feels - that some people need an enemy, a tall poppy to bring down, because it was so great to see an obvious one brought to heel, and so addictive that we need that rush of conviction all the time now.

We've seen something similar in a good number of posters here. After the hated Gorgon was beheaded, the Titan smothered and banished, the rush was so delectable a constant stream of easy-but-big victims was desired.

I really hope this isn't the motivation here.

Yes, I admit it - I discovered cycling as a 13 year old when LeMond was a big champion, and I rode on his every exploit and victory. I loved the guy! Still do. He was the best physical alter-ego I could ever have hoped for. Maybe I'm invested in him like so many did with another guy a few years later. I'd like to think I'm smarter than that, because I never liked the brash kid much. I wanted to like his comeback, but it didn't pass what we call in Australia 'the pub test.' A pub is a bar in Australia, but much more than that. No BS may be admitted into a pub. That's the best way to explain it. He was doping. Cheating. It was obvious. I was glad he lived to ride again, but....

But he made a career on a lie. A conglomerate. The LeMond shenanigans came later, and I wasn't paying much attention by then.

Did LeMond introduce dope to the pro peloton? Well how the hell do I know?! But it's a proposition that just doesn't pass the pub test.

It's Revisionism. Which is never good. In cycling, history is never written by the winners, just about them. In Greg LeMond's case, his history has been written. Now the book has closed. No revisions necessary.

I think you and I might be within 5 years of age of each other. Yeah I know I wins the interwebs and all with that deduction. I believe I was 14 or 15 when I caught onto Greg. What years those were. I would pretend to cycle like him and all.
Even back then I had a good friend and coach for my running who would say things like. All those cycling guys in the pro peloton are amped up on something ,,,,its the nature of the sport...etc. That coach stayed with me until I moved into the college then USMC running days. I was a 10k and more guy, with decent 5k speed. I ran against guys who were amped up their entire careers. I occasionally beat them but never at the big events. So my point being --just between you and I if we were at a bar and I uttered the words that "all these cyclist are dirty" would we then go fist to cuff?

With respect to the bar analogy well yeah I agree. I think anyone with knowledge of the sport and endurance sports in general knew that ole boy Armstrong was dirty. I spent time defending Armstrong with respect to his peers and the sport in general. I thought for a long time he was focused on because of his winning. Turns out it was also that he was a jerk and bully.

Anyhow great post by the way.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: LeMond

The defense of Lemond earlier in this thread and in other Lemond threads has always reeked of old school omerta. One example (out of many) from an old Lemond thread. Just watch it unfold, it's creepy almost:

I was told, face to face, by one of the world's top triathlon coaches (multiple world champions at all distances) that by the end of his career, Lemond's blood was so thick, that he was being woken up every hour & walked for 5-10 minutes, so as to stop him dying in his sleep.

Yet another of example of how Triathletes know nothing about pro cycling, yet try to pretend they do.

Lemond never took EPO, if he did he would not been dropped by the legions of dopers who did.

This triathlon coach pretended he knew a lot about cycling. In fact, he pretended his way to coaching more than one cyclist to become world champion on the track. He was a cycling coach first & foremost before he realized how much money a lot of triathletes have.

Lemond did pretty well when EPO first started.

Are you a Lance Armstrong Lawyer?
or Public Relations person?

Ha ha - far from it. I can't stand Armstrong.
As soon as I read his book, I made my mind up.

Your friend, who coaches guys who ride bikes in Speedo's, is full of $hit.

Lemond was barely hung on when EPO became standard in the sport.

Without getting emotional, I don't think so. The coach isn't a friend of mine, but I will say this - he is in a position to know, and had no reason to make the story up. He is in his 60's, not some immature guy who wants attention.
Who he coaches these days has more to do with $$, he has done enough hard yards. Who cares if some of them ride in speedos? The world champions didn't.

Lemond's decline wasn't due to other guys being on EPO, that is pretty obvious.

...

Anyhow - I can assure you that the coach a) wasn't snubbed by Lemond, b) wasn't using the 'Lemond doped' angle for personal gain, and c) was well connected enough to know what went on at the very top level.

Or invent what he thought went on.

I am FAR more connected to the professional sport then your "coach" will ever be. It never happened. Complete invention.

Well good for you.

I am telling you what he told me, you don't have to believe it.

FYI Eva Maria was Race Radio. Eva Maria was the name he used until he became RR.

Should have been banned for being a sockpuppet who was trolling this nicko777.

 

[Stingray34]

Re:

@stingray: thanks for the link, will look at that later.

wrt Lemond's father-in-law, I don't think you're curious enough.
He was not only an MD, he was (is) a renowned allergist/immunologist - ask Froome how useful that can be - and an ex-surgeon of the US army (so would have had first hand experience with blood transfusions, a.o.).
That's one thing. The other thing is that he was traveling with Lemond to GTs and seems to have been an active part of Lemond's medical team.

BTW, as Glen_Wilson noted, that link doesn't contain the 300 Big Ones info, just something along the lines of LA saying he'd do anything to bring Greg down. The convo Mike had with Lance was 2003/04. The 300 Big Ones comes from Lemond himself - I think - from a phone call Greg said he recorded or was witnessed by his wife around this time when they were at an airport. Apparently, Greg claims Lance said he was offering money to Greg's ex-teammates. They were no takers, and it's not because they were all rich already.

Mike Anderson is a wonderful guy. A real soul-brother who's smart, funny and a dyed-in-the-wool cyclist. I don't see him posting anymore, but he'll tell you anything you want to know. He didn't know Greg, but painfully experienced the worst from a certain other 'merican.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: LeMond

LeMond's team doctor was giving out bogus anemia diagnoses and injecting riders with EPO in 1998. A year later, right before LeMond's rise to the top again, his team diagnoses him with anemia and gives him injections. Ex pros point to LeMond as one of the first riders who used EPO. LeMond, who has positioned himself as a spokesman against modern riders doping, steadfastly refuses to say an ill word about any of his contemporaries who doped, even though they "stole" wins from him.

Jeebus! How hard is it to put one and one together. If this were anyone else it would be common Clinic knowledge that he doped and members would ridicule anyone who questioned it for being naive, stupid, a fanboy, or some combination of the three.

The defense of Lemond earlier in this thread and in other Lemond threads has always reeked of old school omerta. One example (out of many) from an old Lemond thread. Just watch it unfold, it's creepy almost:

I was told, face to face, by one of the world's top triathlon coaches (multiple world champions at all distances) that by the end of his career, Lemond's blood was so thick, that he was being woken up every hour & walked for 5-10 minutes, so as to stop him dying in his sleep.

Yet another of example of how Triathletes know nothing about pro cycling, yet try to pretend they do.

Lemond never took EPO, if he did he would not been dropped by the legions of dopers who did.

This triathlon coach pretended he knew a lot about cycling. In fact, he pretended his way to coaching more than one cyclist to become world champion on the track. He was a cycling coach first & foremost before he realized how much money a lot of triathletes have.

Lemond did pretty well when EPO first started.

Are you a Lance Armstrong Lawyer?
or Public Relations person?

Ha ha - far from it. I can't stand Armstrong.
As soon as I read his book, I made my mind up.

Your friend, who coaches guys who ride bikes in Speedo's, is full of $hit.

Lemond was barely hung on when EPO became standard in the sport.

Without getting emotional, I don't think so. The coach isn't a friend of mine, but I will say this - he is in a position to know, and had no reason to make the story up. He is in his 60's, not some immature guy who wants attention.
Who he coaches these days has more to do with $$, he has done enough hard yards. Who cares if some of them ride in speedos? The world champions didn't.

Lemond's decline wasn't due to other guys being on EPO, that is pretty obvious.

...

Anyhow - I can assure you that the coach a) wasn't snubbed by Lemond, b) wasn't using the 'Lemond doped' angle for personal gain, and c) was well connected enough to know what went on at the very top level.

Or invent what he thought went on.

I am FAR more connected to the professional sport then your "coach" will ever be. It never happened. Complete invention.

Well good for you.

I am telling you what he told me, you don't have to believe it.

So who is this coach? How would he know specifics about Lemond's blood? How would he know if Lemond was being woken up every hour? We are left with someone in another sport, un-named, who supposedly had access to Lemond's sleep schedule and blood parameters.

Solid.

Then we move into the complete lack of performance gains. Which really is where all of this becomes comical for me. Since it is literally impossible that Lemond was on EPO at the beginning of his career, and his performance never changed in a way we'd expect from a rider on EPO, we are left with some choices:

• EPO has no effect on Greg Lemond...but he put his life in danger for it anyway
• He wasn't taking enough, despite the unfounded and unsupported accusation that "his blood was so thick he was being woken up every hour"
• The performance decrease from getting shot was exactly matched by his performance increase from all the EPO he was taking
• He was sandbagging and won the '89 tour by 8 seconds to make it exciting
• He invented EPO in 1978 with the commies after visiting Poland and was using it his entire career
• The story is complete BS

Hmmm...so hard to parse this...

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

@stingray: thanks for the link, will look at that later.

wrt Lemond's father-in-law, I don't think you're curious enough.
He was not only an MD, he was (is) a renowned allergist/immunologist - ask Froome how useful that can be - and an ex-surgeon of the US army (so would have had first hand experience with blood transfusions, a.o.).
That's one thing. The other thing is that he was traveling with Lemond to GTs and seems to have been an active part of Lemond's medical team.

So Greg's FIL is Hawkeye Peirce - how cool is that!

Y'know what, fair play - I didn't know that about Greg's family background. You've done a good job there. You've even dredged up posts by Eva Maria - good lord! - that takes some serious internet search skills that I will never possess.

But I have to ask you this: what is it that convinces you Greg's 'story', his career, is built on lies like a certain other American? Where did this desire to search come from? If you're onto something true and real, then great and God bless - I don't wan't to be fooled, either, or see someone receiving ill-gotten gains. Some part of me thinks, no - feels - that some people need an enemy, a tall poppy to bring down, because it was so great to see an obvious one brought to heel, and so addictive that we need that rush of conviction all the time now.

We've seen something similar in a good number of posters here. After the hated Gorgon was beheaded, the Titan smothered and banished, the rush was so delectable a constant stream of easy-but-big victims was desired.

I really hope this isn't the motivation here.

Yes, I admit it - I discovered cycling as a 13 year old when LeMond was a big champion, and I rode on his every exploit and victory. I loved the guy! Still do. He was the best physical alter-ego I could ever have hoped for. Maybe I'm invested in him like so many did with another guy a few years later. I'd like to think I'm smarter than that, because I never liked the brash kid much. I wanted to like his comeback, but it didn't pass what we call in Australia 'the pub test.' A pub is a bar in Australia, but much more than that. No BS may be admitted into a pub. That's the best way to explain it. He was doping. Cheating. It was obvious. I was glad he lived to ride again, but....

But he made a career on a lie. A conglomerate. The LeMond shenanigans came later, and I wasn't paying much attention by then.

Did LeMond introduce dope to the pro peloton? Well how the hell do I know?! But it's a proposition that just doesn't pass the pub test.

It's Revisionism. Which is never good. In cycling, history is never written by the winners, just about them. In Greg LeMond's case, his history has been written. Now the book has closed. No revisions necessary.

I think you and I might be within 5 years of age of each other. Yeah I know I wins the interwebs and all with that deduction. I believe I was 14 or 15 when I caught onto Greg. What years those were. I would pretend to cycle like him and all.
Even back then I had a good friend and coach for my running who would say things like. All those cycling guys in the pro peloton are amped up on something ,,,,its the nature of the sport...etc. That coach stayed with me until I moved into the college then USMC running days. I was a 10k and more guy, with decent 5k speed. I ran against guys who were amped up their entire careers. I occasionally beat them but never at the big events. So my point being --just between you and I if we were at a bar and I uttered the words that "all these cyclist are dirty" would we then go fist to cuff?

With respect to the bar analogy well yeah I agree. I think anyone with knowledge of the sport and endurance sports in general knew that ole boy Armstrong was dirty. I spent time defending Armstrong with respect to his peers and the sport in general. I thought for a long time he was focused on because of his winning. Turns out it was also that he was a jerk and bully.

Anyhow great post by the way.

Hey thanks! We'd be good bar buddies at college. No fisticuffs - I learnt long ago the girls aren't impressed by that stuff anyway, at least not the smart college girls.

You're in New Orleans? I love the blues. Are you a Louisiana native?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Hey thanks! We'd be good bar buddies at college. No fisticuffs - I learnt long ago the girls aren't impressed by that stuff anyway, at least not the smart college girls.

You're in New Orleans? I love the blues. Are you a Louisiana native?

Yes I agree about the fiticuffs,,,, my fighting days ended once I got out of the US marine corps.

I'm in New Orleans yes. But at the moment I'm in Houston.

I was born in New Orleans and grew up after elementary years in a place called Biloxi Mississippi. My family either lives in New Orleans or the Mississippi Gulf Coast. That part of Mississippi is basically the same as New Orleans with respect to music / food and culture.

Sorry to the mods for the off topic.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

Hey thanks! We'd be good bar buddies at college. No fisticuffs - I learnt long ago the girls aren't impressed by that stuff anyway, at least not the smart college girls.

You're in New Orleans? I love the blues. Are you a Louisiana native?

Yes I agree about the fiticuffs,,,, my fighting days ended once I got out of the US marine corps.

I'm in New Orleans yes. But at the moment I'm in Houston.

I was born in New Orleans and grew up after elementary years in a place called Biloxi Mississippi. My family either lives in New Orleans or the Mississippi Gulf Coast. That part of Mississippi is basically the same as New Orleans with respect to music / food and culture.

Sorry to the mods for the off topic.

Wow, you're the real Cajun McCoy! A boy from Biloxi AND a Marine. Serious respect from me. A cyclist and a runner, too!

Yep, off topic, sorry...but it's all about connections, hey mods? Anyway, Lemond, lemond lemon....citroen.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Hey thanks! We'd be good bar buddies at college. No fisticuffs - I learnt long ago the girls aren't impressed by that stuff anyway, at least not the smart college girls.

You're in New Orleans? I love the blues. Are you a Louisiana native?

Yes I agree about the fiticuffs,,,, my fighting days ended once I got out of the US marine corps.

I'm in New Orleans yes. But at the moment I'm in Houston.

I was born in New Orleans and grew up after elementary years in a place called Biloxi Mississippi. My family either lives in New Orleans or the Mississippi Gulf Coast. That part of Mississippi is basically the same as New Orleans with respect to music / food and culture.

Sorry to the mods for the off topic.

Wow, you're the real Cajun McCoy! A boy from Biloxi AND a Marine. Serious respect from me. A cyclist and a runner, too!

Yep, off topic, sorry...but it's all about connections, hey mods? Anyway, Lemond, lemond lemon....citroen.

Please take your convo to a PM or something else, anything else...

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

Hey thanks! We'd be good bar buddies at college. No fisticuffs - I learnt long ago the girls aren't impressed by that stuff anyway, at least not the smart college girls.

You're in New Orleans? I love the blues. Are you a Louisiana native?

Yes I agree about the fiticuffs,,,, my fighting days ended once I got out of the US marine corps.

I'm in New Orleans yes. But at the moment I'm in Houston.

I was born in New Orleans and grew up after elementary years in a place called Biloxi Mississippi. My family either lives in New Orleans or the Mississippi Gulf Coast. That part of Mississippi is basically the same as New Orleans with respect to music / food and culture.

Sorry to the mods for the off topic.

Wow, you're the real Cajun McCoy! A boy from Biloxi AND a Marine. Serious respect from me. A cyclist and a runner, too!

Yep, off topic, sorry...but it's all about connections, hey mods? Anyway, Lemond, lemond lemon....citroen.

Please take your convo to a PM or something else, anything else...

I'm putting on my well-worn copy of 'The Best of Barry White' right now....and EVERYONE'S invited! Ever seen 'Short Bus'?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Hey thanks! We'd be good bar buddies at college. No fisticuffs - I learnt long ago the girls aren't impressed by that stuff anyway, at least not the smart college girls.

You're in New Orleans? I love the blues. Are you a Louisiana native?

Yes I agree about the fiticuffs,,,, my fighting days ended once I got out of the US marine corps.

I'm in New Orleans yes. But at the moment I'm in Houston.

I was born in New Orleans and grew up after elementary years in a place called Biloxi Mississippi. My family either lives in New Orleans or the Mississippi Gulf Coast. That part of Mississippi is basically the same as New Orleans with respect to music / food and culture.

Sorry to the mods for the off topic.

Wow, you're the real Cajun McCoy! A boy from Biloxi AND a Marine. Serious respect from me. A cyclist and a runner, too!

Yep, off topic, sorry...but it's all about connections, hey mods? Anyway, Lemond, lemond lemon....citroen.

Thanks. If you ever come to NO just give a shout via the PM. Some very good places other than the French Quarter to hear and see some good Jazz and Blues played. By the way I have been to a RAAF base near Darwin , I think the town close to the base was named Katherine. I'm trying to google it now. 1992 was the year.

Back to LeMond.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: LeMond

And I'm supposed to ignore these documented facts in favour of the word of a documented liar and cheat who entered the sport more than 20 years after Lemond had left it, because he heard from somebody who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else ...that Lemond used EPO?

More accurately, the rumor of the word of a documented liar and cheat. Someone who publicly attacked and threatened Lemond for telling the truth about him.

This isn't a quote. This is something someone, about whom we know little or nothing, said they heard Landis say. All the other stuff is totally on point.

Sniper: You do realize that Julien DeVries has said NUMEROUS times that Greg was clean, right? Infact, he's said it on this board a few times.