LeMond III

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: LeMond

Some things are disturbing about the Floyd and LeMon's issues. But Greg tried to manipulate Floyd and I think Floyd realized that. Everyone denies the facts that somehow Greg was trying to play Floyd to get at a larger catch. To me that is bad.

Lots of bad karma out there for more than a few of our "merikan" winners of the tour. The only one to hold onto his titles is Greg. I sure Hope to F!23 he never gets exposed for more than drunk dialing.

Who ever mentioned LeMond is always a nice guy? He probably is an Alpha Male too, dont mess with those when you are not in the right hierarchy.

Nice? No.
Explainable? Yes.

This is beginning to look like sour Floyd Grapes.

Floyd was a baby when LeMond took his first shot of EPO. Boogerd too by the way.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: LeMond

Some things are disturbing about the Floyd and LeMon's issues. But Greg tried to manipulate Floyd and I think Floyd realized that. Everyone denies the facts that somehow Greg was trying to play Floyd to get at a larger catch. To me that is bad.

Lots of bad karma out there for more than a few of our "merikan" winners of the tour. The only one to hold onto his titles is Greg. I sure Hope to F!23 he never gets exposed for more than drunk dialing.

Who ever mentioned LeMond is always a nice guy? He probably is an Alpha Male too, dont mess with those when you are not in the right hierarchy.

Nice? No.
Explainable? Yes.

This is beginning to look like sour Floyd Grapes.

Floyd was a baby when LeMond took his first shot of EPO. Boogerd too by the way.

Very true. If I was to run into LeMonds somewhere I might have to show him the real Alpha you know kinda like we do in the USMC not some amped up cycling world stuff but the real world. He might want to run and hide unless of course he was Drinking then he might have that liquid courage. I keep calling him out but he never comes on here to respond and I think just between the two of us he would know what I'm referring to.

Anyhow I'm not much of a Floyd fan either but I do understand his perspective when it comes to the two "Alpha Males" Greg and Lance. He does not much care for them from the way it reads. I don't blame him because he was caught in the middle of these two's fhu!ck about. That stinks for him.

You misunderstand me no doubt FGL. Sorry for that. I bet on other issues we totally agree. I'm just not going to come onto this thread and say Greg has never done PED's and is a Saint. I very much doubt any EPO use. In fact I'm of the opinion he never did regardless of what has been posted here. But the way you guys defend him is very much like scare tactics and very similar to the LA fans.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: LeMond

You misunderstand me no doubt FGL. Sorry for that. I bet on other issues we totally agree. I'm just not going to come onto this thread and say Greg has never done PED's and is a Saint. I very much doubt any EPO use. In fact I'm of the opinion he never did regardless of what has been posted here. But the way you guys defend him is very much like scare tactics and very similar to the LA fans.

Glenn, I'm not saying he didnt. I dont know, and, to be VERY frankly, I dont care anymore. It is 27 years ago, I saw what I saw, what you saw. We know what we know about that time of racing. What went on.

I am no Greg LeMond apologist, in time I grew to appreciate Fignon more and more, for instance. But, that doesnt mean I do have to agree with people who werent even around at the time, who cant find/analyse sources [ fregging givein to them ] and just try to smear a name. Floyd doesnt know either. And, he wasnt in the middle of Alpha Males Struggle, when he decided to let his lawyer play ball about LeMonds' childhood abuse he tried to be an Alpha, which, to be frank, he isnt, and will never be, and, thats okay. Dont come to a gunfight with a fork is the saying?

If I have made the impression I defend LeMond like others have done in the past with regards to Armstrong I am sorry for that, that is certainly not my intention and that was/is never my intention.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

@scienceiscool:

Lemond had only one kidney before he got shot.
According to the reports, the shooting damaged his kidney, so it seems fair to assume it was the remaining kidney that got damaged. Correct me if wrong

So yes, according to his own story and the media reports, he is likely to have had two borked(?) kidneys when he was in the hospital in 1987, which would have made him a pretty good candidate for EPO.
Geographically (California/US is where the history of EPO starts) and financially (EPO is said to have been friggin expensive in the trial phase), he ticks the boxes as well.
He may not have been the perfect candidate, but still a better candidate than any other pro-cyclist of the time I can think of.
Sorry, I notice all this infuriates you, but try to take it lightly, it's not personal.

Ow, and whether the "one kidney" is a bogus story or not, I don't know, to be honest.
You will have to take that up with Lemond and his PR team.

I'm trying to follow this. Lemond won the Tour in 86, EPO came into the peleton in 92, or thereabouts. How then, if EPO was available before, did he have such a hard time beating Fignon and Chiappucci in 89, 90? Had he been on Epo, would he have not destroyed them? Or was everyone already on Epo?

The devil is in the detail.

In the first stage a powerful break that included LeMond's teammate Ronan Pensac arrived at the finish over 9 minutes ahead of the pack. In that break was Claudio Chiappucci, who proved to be a tenacious Yellow Jersey. LeMond ate away at the gap stage after stage until he captured the lead in the stage 20 individual time trial.

http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf1990.html

LeMond took back a staggering 12 minutes on Chiappucci, which is not bad for being cleans

FFS. He took back that time over 20 stages, the break was on stage 1. So did any number of riders including Bugno and Breukink. The only surprising thing was how long it took the favorites to reel him back and the fact that other stronger riders like Bauer and Pensec faded long before Chiappucci.

Chiappucci was a relative nobody at that point on a crap team which couldn't support him in the mountains.

The leaders chiseled at that lead for the better part of 3 weeks, taking time in TT's and finally some big chunks in the mountains.

If anyone was on EPO in that tour, the obvious one to look at was the Italian, Chiappucci who was a client of our good friend and EPO dottore, Conconi.

But yeah. Lemond was the doper in that race.

...he also refused to use aero bars in the TT's ( which totalled around 150km that year....) which simply gave away a huge pile of time....even if the aero advantage had been only 1sec/km Chiappuci could well have won...

...and btw Chiappuci was not exactly nobody....for what its worth he took the climbers jersey in this race called the Giro in 90...

Cheers

 

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

...
Floyd was a baby when LeMond took his first shot of EPO. Boogerd too by the way.

dhaenens wasn't.
or the dutch amateur cyclist in that newspaper article.
or oliver starr, who basically started this thread by accusing lemond of doping (but wishes he hadn't, seeing how he got slammed and discredited for that).

As for Floyd, he may have been a baby, but guys like Weisel, Dirk Demol and Julien DeVries certainly weren't. Rumors have a way of traveling.

Esafosfina wasn't a baby either. Although admittedly he never directly accused lemond, he did describe more or less systematic doping under Vanmol at ADR in 1989.

on that note, I do find it remarkable that Lemond has never distanced himself from Vanmol or De Cauwer or Sergeant, even though all three of them have later been unambiguously exposed as major frauds, fixers, dealers, and facilitators of all kinds of peds. Vanmol has even been linked to various deaths.
Instead of distancing himself from these facilitators, Lemond is on the record in 2010-ish saying he would go with De Cauwer again if he could.

Otoh, Lemond also threw a nice fundraiser in 2005 for the junior athlete doper Eddie B who put lives in danger in 1984 and brought juniors to Poland to learn to transfuse, so maybe i shouldn't be surprised.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

@scienceiscool:

Lemond had only one kidney before he got shot.
According to the reports, the shooting damaged his kidney, so it seems fair to assume it was the remaining kidney that got damaged. Correct me if wrong

So yes, according to his own story and the media reports, he is likely to have had two borked(?) kidneys when he was in the hospital in 1987, which would have made him a pretty good candidate for EPO.
Geographically (California/US is where the history of EPO starts) and financially (EPO is said to have been friggin expensive in the trial phase), he ticks the boxes as well.
He may not have been the perfect candidate, but still a better candidate than any other pro-cyclist of the time I can think of.
Sorry, I notice all this infuriates you, but try to take it lightly, it's not personal.

Ow, and whether the "one kidney" is a bogus story or not, I don't know, to be honest.
You will have to take that up with Lemond and his PR team.

I'm trying to follow this. Lemond won the Tour in 86, EPO came into the peleton in 92, or thereabouts. How then, if EPO was available before, did he have such a hard time beating Fignon and Chiappucci in 89, 90? Had he been on Epo, would he have not destroyed them? Or was everyone already on Epo?

i don't know the answers to all that, but it has little bearing on the stuff i said in the post you replied to.

as i said multiple times, if we look at the early use of epo in the late 80s it raises more questions than answers.
why did Rooks go backwards after 1988, even though he got on the epo program.
why did planckaert go backwards?
what about Demol? No epo in 1990 and onwards? hard to believe.
what about Draaijer? Didn't exactly improve on EPO, did he...
Hell, what about a guy like Raphael Nadal? Very consistently won the French Open 9 times in a row (with only one year in between), but now he's suddenly in decline. Clean? Of course not.

We have the question of "responding". Some respond better than others.
We have the question of "ressources". Some had more ressources than others.
We have the question of "EPO + HGH" possibly being the big(ger) game changer in the early nineties.
We don't know how the hunting accident influenced Lemond's base levels.
Etc.
Lots of questions.
But again, none of that has much bearing on what i posted and what you replied to.

as for 1990. Considering the unidentified virus that took him out prior to the Tour, it seems pretty spectacular what he pulled off at the Tour.
Some would even call it a transformation.

 

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

...
....ah those ubiquitous B12 shots...here are a couple of things you may want to consider....

Should We Ban Vitamin B12?

So, with Roger Clemens stating that the only thing he has injected into his body is vitamin B12 (with lidocaine), I wondered if there are any performance-enhancing benefits from using the substance. And if there are, should we seek a ban (although, I think it would be nearly impossible to police)?

Once again, we have a substance that players are taking that appears to do nothing for healthy individuals. First, from the NY Times article:


In a telephone interview Thursday, Dr. Jerome Groopman, a hematologist and professor at Harvard Medical School, described lidocaine as a common local anesthetic whose injectable form would probably require a prescription. Groopman said that vitamin B12, which does not require a prescription, is administered to patients with a serious deficiency of the vitamin, usually the elderly, and that its value as an energy enhancer was “an urban legend.”

“For someone like Roger Clemens, who certainly looks robust, the likelihood that he would be deficient in vitamin B12 is a stretch,” Groopman said, noting that he had not seen Clemens’s medical records. “It would have no physiological effect. It would only have a placebo effect.”

http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/

...so why the ubiquity of B12 if it doesn't seem to do much ?....well it was in the day seen as a masking agent ( if you do a quick Google search you will see it is still seen as part of an effective way to cheat drug tests )...urban myth, maybe, but that was one of the reasons for its use ( read, people thought it would work )....

....but there is another use for B12 shots that some may find interesting....

EPO causes the blood to thicken, so I was given iron, vitamin E, folic acid, selenium, vitamin C, B1, B2, B6 and B12 to counteract the possibilities of it clotting.
[/quote

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-1158422/Dwain-Chambers-Masking-agent-visible-tester-knocked.html

...as for the iron shots....was seen in the old days as a masking agent for steroids though that use may well be an urban legend .....but certainly not a quick pick me up as LeMond claimed but definitely required to get the most benefit from the use of EPO....and just to really complicate things: severe iron deficiency is not that common and one of the causes for it to arise is steroid use.....and as for Greg being upfront about it ? he could have just as easily been Greg being ADHD about it...

Cheers

interesting.
that's a couple of things to consider indeed.

 

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

..., also citing professional Dutch riders like Matthieu Hermans claiming to use EPO in 1988 at Caja Rural. Cant you guys do some maths?

i'm having trouble doing the math here
could you expand on this and explain what you think it may point to?

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

@scienceiscool:

Lemond had only one kidney before he got shot.
According to the reports, the shooting damaged his kidney, so it seems fair to assume it was the remaining kidney that got damaged. Correct me if wrong

So yes, according to his own story and the media reports, he is likely to have had two borked(?) kidneys when he was in the hospital in 1987, which would have made him a pretty good candidate for EPO.
Geographically (California/US is where the history of EPO starts) and financially (EPO is said to have been friggin expensive in the trial phase), he ticks the boxes as well.
He may not have been the perfect candidate, but still a better candidate than any other pro-cyclist of the time I can think of.
Sorry, I notice all this infuriates you, but try to take it lightly, it's not personal.

Ow, and whether the "one kidney" is a bogus story or not, I don't know, to be honest.
You will have to take that up with Lemond and his PR team.

I'm trying to follow this. Lemond won the Tour in 86, EPO came into the peleton in 92, or thereabouts. How then, if EPO was available before, did he have such a hard time beating Fignon and Chiappucci in 89, 90? Had he been on Epo, would he have not destroyed them? Or was everyone already

. Considering the unidentified virus that took him out prior to the Tour, it seems pretty spectacular what he pulled off at the Tour.
Some would even call it a transformation.

Transformation is a loaded term in discussions of doping, as you know know because you are using the term.

Last year I got a virus. A 200k ride took me 13 hours. I got well again. The next 200k took me 7.5 hours.

Some would call it a transformation. Does that mean it was more likely that I had started doping.

 

[thehog]

Re:

During the Calgary olympics in February 1988 Yvonne van Gennip did the impossible and beat the unbeatable East Germans. I would be highly surprised if the PDM doctors did not know before the start of the tour how she did this.

Agreed, good post.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: LeMond

You misunderstand me no doubt FGL. Sorry for that. I bet on other issues we totally agree. I'm just not going to come onto this thread and say Greg has never done PED's and is a Saint. I very much doubt any EPO use. In fact I'm of the opinion he never did regardless of what has been posted here. But the way you guys defend him is very much like scare tactics and very similar to the LA fans.

Glenn, I'm not saying he didnt. I dont know, and, to be VERY frankly, I dont care anymore. It is 27 years ago, I saw what I saw, what you saw. We know what we know about that time of racing. What went on.

I am no Greg LeMond apologist, in time I grew to appreciate Fignon more and more, for instance. But, that doesnt mean I do have to agree with people who werent even around at the time, who cant find/analyse sources [ fregging givein to them ] and just try to smear a name. Floyd doesnt know either. And, he wasnt in the middle of Alpha Males Struggle, when he decided to let his lawyer play ball about LeMonds' childhood abuse he tried to be an Alpha, which, to be frank, he isnt, and will never be, and, thats okay. Dont come to a gunfight with a fork is the saying?

If I have made the impression I defend LeMond like others have done in the past with regards to Armstrong I am sorry for that, that is certainly not my intention and that was/is never my intention.

Not so much in your case. I know you to be a good well rounded presenter / contribute to the discussions here.

What Floyd done or had done with respect to Greg's past is well beyond any line drawn. I agree. I also Agree that Floyd could not have known what was going on during the mid to late 80's and early 90's. Only thing he knows is what he has been told. Not first hand experience.

 

[sniper]

This from the 1993 Giro got me thinking:

Then it was revealed that LeMond suffered from allergies that affected his immune system. They became so severe in Italy that he had infections on his lips, mouth and throat. Allergist David Morris, LeMond's father-in-law, said Greg is being treated with flu vaccine injections that help improve his immune system. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-03/sports/sp-9645_1_greg-lemond

It got me thinking: why was Lemond being given injections here to treat allergies when in fact David Morris is famous in the US medical scene for developing anti-allergy treatments that do not require injections, and knowing that Lemond was allegedly needle adverse.
Also, who was giving the injections. Was it David Morris, or GAN team doctor Francois Bellocq, or someone else?

 

[thehog]

Re:

This from the 1993 Giro got me thinking:

Then it was revealed that LeMond suffered from allergies that affected his immune system. They became so severe in Italy that he had infections on his lips, mouth and throat. Allergist David Morris, LeMond's father-in-law, said Greg is being treated with flu vaccine injections that help improve his immune system. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-03/sports/sp-9645_1_greg-lemond

It got me thinking: why was Lemond being given injections here to treat allergies when in fact David Morris is famous in the US medical scene for developing anti-allergy treatments that do not require injections, and knowing that Lemond was allegedly needle adverse.
Also, who was giving the injections. Was it David Morris, or GAN team doctor Francois Bellocq, or someone else?

Flu vaccine injections? Multiple injections for a vaccine? He wasn't able to conduct a skin test to determine the exact nature of the allergy

Iron shots, vaccine injections, lol! The ethical boundries have no limit. It's too funny for words.

 

[blutto]

Re:

This from the 1993 Giro got me thinking:

Then it was revealed that LeMond suffered from allergies that affected his immune system. They became so severe in Italy that he had infections on his lips, mouth and throat. Allergist David Morris, LeMond's father-in-law, said Greg is being treated with flu vaccine injections that help improve his immune system. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-03/sports/sp-9645_1_greg-lemond

It got me thinking: why was Lemond being given injections here to treat allergies when in fact David Morris is famous in the US medical scene for developing anti-allergy treatments that do not require injections, and knowing that Lemond was allegedly needle adverse.
Also, who was giving the injections. Was it David Morris, or GAN team doctor Francois Bellocq, or someone else?

....hmmm....

Cheers

 

[djpbaltimore]

I wouldn't put much stock in that passage, it is mostly scientific gibberish. As I stated before, writers (and their editors) often don't have sufficient training to accurately convey what they are writing about. It is telling that a direct quote was not provided. Who really knows what treatments Dr. Morris was providing for the allergies? Sublingual Immunotherapy is still not FDA approved for most allergies, even though is frequently used by allergists in the clinic. And when you have an infection, you have to treat the infection itself.

 

[thehog]

Re:

I wouldn't put much stock in that passage, it is mostly scientific gibberish. As I stated before, writers (and their editors) often don't have sufficient training to accurately convey what they are writing about. It is telling that a direct quote was not provided. Who really knows what treatments Dr. Morris was providing for the allergies? Sublingual Immunotherapy is still not FDA approved for most allergies, even though is frequently used by allergists in the clinic. And when you have an infection, you have to treat the infection itself.

Good idea, let's just ignore what we don't want to see

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

The only thing consistent about LeMond is his hypocrisy. Find a single statement by LeMond where he criticizes one of his competitors for beating him while doping. Find a single one. It should be easy. This is Saint LeMond, the anti-doping advocate who has built a myth of a career ended because of other riders doping. Find one complaint by him where he names a doping competitor and says he was robbed of a deserved win.

Well that is interesting, and it shows that you have missed an important point about Lemond's attitude to doping.

He wasn't going to waste time on the past. His motivation was cleaning up the present.

He was not that forward thinking after Armstrong retired and became part of the past, was he? He was and still is focused on that past. It is very convenient that his focus does not extend back to his own generation.

Again. This is a man who has spent thirty years telling everyone he was robbed of winning the 1985 Tour. The 1980s were drenched in dope. All his rivals doped. They stole wins from him. Yet he, an incessant whinger if there ever was one in cycling, has never complained. Not once. Explain that. Explain how a man who for decades has carried a grudge about missing out on a win because of legitimate team orders never mentions races that were taken from him by illegitimate doping.

Explain why a man, who for an inexplicable reason you think has consistent views of doping, relies on second hand information from an era he did not race in for his examples of doping and clean athletes losing opportunities instead of relying on examples from his own era where he could provide first hand experience.

There is only one explanation that makes sense, and it does not feature LeMond as the one clean Tour winner in history

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Good idea, let's just ignore what we don't want to see

I would like to know who prescribed and administered those flu vaccin injections.
Was it
(a) his father-in-law David Morris, of whom Scienceiscool recently argued he had nothing to do with Lemond's medical guidance, or
(b) Francois Bellocq (doctor of GAN in 93) who is thought to have doped Delgado and Hinault, and of whom Race Radio claimed Lemond was not a customer

Greg didn't have a problem talking about him as he had never been a customer of his.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

I wouldn't put much stock in that passage, it is mostly scientific gibberish. As I stated before, writers (and their editors) often don't have sufficient training to accurately convey what they are writing about. It is telling that a direct quote was not provided. Who really knows what treatments Dr. Morris was providing for the allergies? Sublingual Immunotherapy is still not FDA approved for most allergies, even though is frequently used by allergists in the clinic. And when you have an infection, you have to treat the infection itself.

Good idea, let's just ignore what we don't want to see

Good contribution, thehog.

Flu vaccines are not multiple injections. And haven't been since WWII. And influenza does not present anything like was described. Care to disagree? IMO, I can safely ignore what is obviously garbled jargon.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

I'm a stickler for detail, important to get it right.

LeMond has never said anything about Sky or Froome .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-3173856/Chris-Froome-fire-Greg-LeMond-Tour-legend-wants-proof-Team-Sky-stats-slamming-marginal-gains-hear-say-eat-better-s-bull.html

LeMond, working in France as a TV pundit, also poured scorn over Sky's much-heralded 'marginal gains'. He said: 'When you hear someone say I eat better, it's bull****. When you hear them say we have beds, it's bull****.'

'I always say that if people don't want to share stuff, they've got something to hide,' said LeMond. 'If they are too afraid to disclose a lot of data, that's bad.

Whoops

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I wouldn't put much stock in that passage, it is mostly scientific gibberish. As I stated before, writers (and their editors) often don't have sufficient training to accurately convey what they are writing about. It is telling that a direct quote was not provided. Who really knows what treatments Dr. Morris was providing for the allergies? Sublingual Immunotherapy is still not FDA approved for most allergies, even though is frequently used by allergists in the clinic. And when you have an infection, you have to treat the infection itself.

Good idea, let's just ignore what we don't want to see

Good contribution, thehog.

Flu vaccines are not multiple injections. And haven't been since WWII. And influenza does not present anything like was described. Care to disagree? IMO, I can safely ignore what is obviously garbled jargon.

I was more laughing at LeMond and his allergies/low iron stories. Thankfully he never injected anything else other than vaccines

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Flu vaccine injections? Multiple injections for a vaccine? He wasn't able to conduct a skin test to determine the exact nature of the allergy

Iron shots, vaccine injections, lol! The ethical boundries have no limit. It's too funny for words.

Ever heard of Hepatitis B vaccine, MMR, or tetanus? Maybe you should be more precise in your language if you don't want to be called out. And where was it said that a skin *** test was NOT administered. Details, details.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Flu vaccine injections? Multiple injections for a vaccine? He wasn't able to conduct a skin test to determine the exact nature of the allergy

Iron shots, vaccine injections, lol! The ethical boundries have no limit. It's too funny for words.

Ever heard of Hepatitis B vaccine, MMR, or tetanus? Maybe you should be more precise in your language if you don't want to be called out. And where was it said that a skin *** test was NOT administered. Details, details.

Exactly, details.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re:

This from the 1993 Giro got me thinking:

Then it was revealed that LeMond suffered from allergies that affected his immune system. They became so severe in Italy that he had infections on his lips, mouth and throat. Allergist David Morris, LeMond's father-in-law, said Greg is being treated with flu vaccine injections that help improve his immune system. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-03/sports/sp-9645_1_greg-lemond

It got me thinking: why was Lemond being given injections here to treat allergies when in fact David Morris is famous in the US medical scene for developing anti-allergy treatments that do not require injections, and knowing that Lemond was allegedly needle adverse.
Also, who was giving the injections. Was it David Morris, or GAN team doctor Francois Bellocq, or someone else?

He also cried when 'notorious' 'doping doc' Bellocq died. Do better.

 

[Irondan]

This thread has been arguably on it's best behavior for quite some time, please don't ruin it by getting snippy with one another.

Edit: Not directed at any one comment or member.