LEMOND the DOPER

[ChrisE]

Not according to the delusional ChrisE. He posts more than you so I'll go with him.

His thinking probably goes somewhat like this....

Pharmstrong has been recognized and endorsed by Anheuser Busch. I (Buckwheat)happen to like Busch beer and it's very inexpensive. My man la knows all about corporate politics, (he's b!tch slapped them into place) and also has a way with the b!tches themselves. What has LeMond done? Heh! He doesn't even have his own bike endorsement!

I posted earlier about my concern about your mancrush on me. Please stop stalking me around the forum. Especially if you plan to interject your communist rants from the Obama thread into your pursuit of me in other areas of the forum.

BTW, I drink Bud Light and Coors Light. I don't worry about saving a few pennies when it comes to beer. Maybe that is the basis of your hate of capitalism....scrounging around for pennies while on the beer aisle at Kroger. It must be somebody elses fault.

 

[buckwheat]

I posted earlier about my concern about your mancrush on me. Please stop stalking me around the forum. Especially if you plan to interject your communist rants from the Obama thread into your pursuit of me in other areas of the forum.

BTW, I drink Bud Light and Coors Light. I don't worry about saving a few pennies when it comes to beer. Maybe that is the basis of your hate of capitalism....scrounging around for pennies while on the beer aisle at Kroger. It must be somebody elses fault.

Specialists! See one!

Communist rants? Even Jay Leno says that Obama is a Republican. You're a very confused person.

If you can shake yourself out of your reverie, Coors Light induced or otherwise, please enlighten us as to how much pre EPO doping products help a cyclist.

 

[patricknd]

Dexamethasone and high altitude mountaineering having nothing to do with performance enhancement in endurance sports. Nothing.

Dexamethasone does not enhance a climber's ability to ascend a mountain. Dexamethasone is used to treat altitude-induced cerebral and/or pulmonary edema. Dexamethasone is a medical treatment for a life-threatening condition in the high mountains, not a performance enhancer for mountaineers.

http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/08/14/take-dex-and-climb-better-at-high-altitude.htm

read this, it's pretty interesting. my oncologist is a climber and he was the first one that mentioned this to me, then my sister-in-law told me the same thing. she's done some dr.'s with out borders type thing in peru, and she says that without dex at 15000 ft she can't breathe. with it, it's no worse than denver.

it won't make a mule a racehorse,but as part of a complete program.........

 

[python]

<snip> For me it's clear that not all, but the vast majority of people questioning Greg are actually Lance fans looking for something to dirty the name of a guy who has criticised their hero.

dont know about the vast majority but i'll say this in my only post in the stupid thread, you're likely on the money with those you're dealing here.

 

[python]

do a quick read on dexamethasone and high altitude mountaineering.

patric you're bang on re. dexamethasone. i used it for many years whilst climbing.

 

[Hugh Januss]

patric you're bang on re. dexamethasone. i used it for many years whilst climbing.

You are up to two posts on this stupid thread now, soon ChrisE will have to take your opinion seriously.

 

[elapid]

http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/08/14/take-dex-and-climb-better-at-high-altitude.htm

read this, it's pretty interesting. my oncologist is a climber and he was the first one that mentioned this to me, then my sister-in-law told me the same thing. she's done some dr.'s with out borders type thing in peru, and she says that without dex at 15000 ft she can't breathe. with it, it's no worse than denver.

it won't make a mule a racehorse,but as part of a complete program.........

Two things. Firstly, cyclists are not riding at these altitudes so this study has no relevance to performance enhancement from sea level to the type of altitudes typically experienced in the Alps or the Pyrenees. For instance, the Col du Galibier is often the highest pass in the TdF. At 2645 m or 8678 ft, the Galibier is approximately half the altitude where dexamethasone has a positive effect on performance in the mountaineering study you cited.

Secondly, the term steroids can be confusing. Dexamethasone is a glucocorticoid and is used for its antiinflammatory and immunosuppressive effects. Dexamethasone and other glucocorticoids such as hydrocortisone have no performance enhancing effect, at least at the altitudes below 15000 ft. Glucocorticoids are very different to the "steroids" used for performance enhancing in athletes. The performance-enhancing steroids are anabolic steroids and these are related to male hormones, not glucocorticoids. Anabolic steroids are performance enhancing because they improve muscle strength and recovery, thus allowing users to trainer harder and longer.

 

[python]

You are up to two posts on this stupid thread now, soon ChrisE will have to take your opinion seriously.

when i realized i broke my own pledge i deleted it but your farker got me there. cheers.

 

[Von Mises]

For me it's clear that not all, but the vast majority of people questioning Greg are actually Lance fans looking for something to dirty the name of a guy who has criticised their hero.

I think that it is perfectly okey to be critical of LA and assume he doped, but at the same time also take some words of GL with a grain of salt. It does not mean that GL lies or is bad person, but he is just human and humans err, exaggerate, contradict themselves etc.

 

[flicker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLS0_xPqZt8&NR=1

What did Greg say about this guy Bjarne?

 

[ChrisE]

Specialists! See one!

I think I understand now.....disagreement with buckwheat = see a therapist.

I'm not sure I buy that but maybe that is more indication I need to see a shrink.

Let's please stay on topic and stop the personal attacks. My concern for you is real, unlike your use of people with psychological conditions as a punchline.

Thanks.

 

[patricknd]

Two things. Firstly, cyclists are not riding at these altitudes so this study has no relevance to performance enhancement from sea level to the type of altitudes typically experienced in the Alps or the Pyrenees. For instance, the Col du Galibier is often the highest pass in the TdF. At 2645 m or 8678 ft, the Galibier is approximately half the altitude where dexamethasone has a positive effect on performance in the mountaineering study you cited.

Secondly, the term steroids can be confusing. Dexamethasone is a glucocorticoid and is used for its antiinflammatory and immunosuppressive effects. Dexamethasone and other glucocorticoids such as hydrocortisone have no performance enhancing effect, at least at the altitudes below 15000 ft. Glucocorticoids are very different to the "steroids" used for performance enhancing in athletes. The performance-enhancing steroids are anabolic steroids and these are related to male hormones, not glucocorticoids. Anabolic steroids are performance enhancing because they improve muscle strength and recovery, thus allowing users to trainer harder and longer.

i know the difference. point is what is the difference at lower altitudes?

.Take Dex and Climb Better at High Altitude
Friday August 14, 2009

High altitude mountaineers have long taken dexamathasone or dex for treating altitude-related illnesses like high altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) and acute mountain sickness (AMS). Now a Swiss study reveals that taking dex can dramatically improve exercise capacity and performance at high altitude.

The study, published in the August 15th issue of the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine by the American Thoracic Society, used 23 mountaineers with a history of HAPE. The climbers were randomly given tadalifil, dexamethasone, or a placebo the day before a cable car ascent from 3,609 feet at Alagna, Italy to 10,499 feet, where they climbed to 11,975 feet and spent the night. The next day the climbers ascended to Capanna Regina Margherita at 14,957 feet. Exercise tests and echocardiographic exams were conducted on the summit.

“Reduced oxygen content in the air is the major limiting factor at high altitude. Reduction in exercise capacity goes in parallel to the reduction in oxygen up to an altitude of approximately 4,000 meters. At higher altitudes, there is an even further reduction in exercise capacity,” says Dr. Manual Fischler, one of the lead researchers. “As expected, exercise capacity at high altitudes was diminished among all groups and key indicators of cardiopulmonary stress were elevated.”

Subjects who took tadalafil and dexamethasone fared better in oxygen use than the placeo group, but the dex group had two major advantages. First, the heart rate of the dex group increased but less than the other groups. Second and more significantly, the VO2max, a measurement of how efficiently the body uses oxygen, was much higher in the dex group at high altitude. The study found that elevated blood pressure in the lungs decreases the body’s ability to use oxygen during exercise. Dr. Fischler says, “Our study indicates that for HAPE-susceptible climbers, taking dexamethasone improved exercise capacity, oxygen uptake kinetics and decreased the anaerobic threshold.”

What that all means is that climbers who took dex felt better at altitude, climbed better, and had “fewer altitude-related discomforts” than the other two groups.


note the bold. it doesn't say that it does nothing below 15000 ft.

and again, i'm not saying that it's a super drug like epo, but aspart of a regimen would be really helpful.

one of the best effects i had was zero muscle soreness, no matter what i did. in some ways it was like being 18 again.

 

[elapid]

i know the difference. point is what is the difference at lower altitudes?

.Take Dex and Climb Better at High Altitude
Friday August 14, 2009

High altitude mountaineers have long taken dexamathasone or dex for treating altitude-related illnesses like high altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) and acute mountain sickness (AMS). Now a Swiss study reveals that taking dex can dramatically improve exercise capacity and performance at high altitude.

The study, published in the August 15th issue of the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine by the American Thoracic Society, used 23 mountaineers with a history of HAPE. The climbers were randomly given tadalifil, dexamethasone, or a placebo the day before a cable car ascent from 3,609 feet at Alagna, Italy to 10,499 feet, where they climbed to 11,975 feet and spent the night. The next day the climbers ascended to Capanna Regina Margherita at 14,957 feet. Exercise tests and echocardiographic exams were conducted on the summit.

“Reduced oxygen content in the air is the major limiting factor at high altitude. Reduction in exercise capacity goes in parallel to the reduction in oxygen up to an altitude of approximately 4,000 meters. At higher altitudes, there is an even further reduction in exercise capacity,” says Dr. Manual Fischler, one of the lead researchers. “As expected, exercise capacity at high altitudes was diminished among all groups and key indicators of cardiopulmonary stress were elevated.”

Subjects who took tadalafil and dexamethasone fared better in oxygen use than the placeo group, but the dex group had two major advantages. First, the heart rate of the dex group increased but less than the other groups. Second and more significantly, the VO2max, a measurement of how efficiently the body uses oxygen, was much higher in the dex group at high altitude. The study found that elevated blood pressure in the lungs decreases the body’s ability to use oxygen during exercise. Dr. Fischler says, “Our study indicates that for HAPE-susceptible climbers, taking dexamethasone improved exercise capacity, oxygen uptake kinetics and decreased the anaerobic threshold.”

What that all means is that climbers who took dex felt better at altitude, climbed better, and had “fewer altitude-related discomforts” than the other two groups.


note the bold. it doesn't say that it does nothing below 15000 ft.

As I read the paper the first time and posted my thoughts on this paper, I don't need it quoted now! Yes, exercise capacity is decreased as altitude increases. Hence why cyclists use altitude training and altitude tents. These climbers were all susceptible to altitude sickness and hence the study is biased because they all have a history of decreased performance as a result of altitude sickness. What about climbers that were not susceptible to HAPE? Again I repeat that there is NO evidence that glucocorticoids enhance performance at the altitudes that cyclists compete. You may also want to consider the side effects of glucocorticoids, including reduced muscle strength and mass because of protein breakdown, and weight gain. Neither of these are useful for a cyclist and, even if dexamethasone does increase VO2 max, these side effects probably outweigh the potential benefits of the drug. And I will also repeat that glucocorticoids are not the type of steroids used for performance enhancement by professional athletes. You may know the difference, but your original reference to dexamethasone seemed to be in relation to anabolic steroids and not glucocorticoids.

 

[patricknd]

As I read the paper the first time and posted my thoughts on this paper, I don't need it quoted now! Yes, exercise capacity is decreased as altitude increases. Hence why cyclists use altitude training and altitude tents. These climbers were all susceptible to altitude sickness and hence the study is biased because they all have a history of decreased performance as a result of altitude sickness. What about climbers that were not susceptible to HAPE? Again I repeat that there is NO evidence that glucocorticoids enhance performance at the altitudes that cyclists compete. You may also want to consider the side effects of glucocorticoids, including reduced muscle strength and mass because of protein breakdown, and weight gain. Neither of these are useful for a cyclist and, even if dexamethasone does increase VO2 max, these side effects probably outweigh the potential benefits of the drug. And I will also repeat that glucocorticoids are not the type of steroids used for performance enhancement by professional athletes. You may know the difference, but your original reference to dexamethasone seemed to be in relation to anabolic steroids and not glucocorticoids.

but are there studies that show that they aren't a benefit at 6000 ft? i'm well aware of the side effects from first hand experience, but i also know from an admittedly unscientific place what the benefits are, especially in lower doses.

on a different note, you seem well versed on the subject, not the usual wicki argument. are you in the medical field by chance?

one other thing. if they have no benefit, why are they banned?

 

[elapid]

but are there studies that show that they aren't a benefit at 6000 ft? i'm well aware of the side effects from first hand experience, but i also know from an admittedly unscientific place what the benefits are, especially in lower doses.

on a different note, you seem well versed on the subject, not the usual wicki argument. are you in the medical field by chance?

one other thing. if they have no benefit, why are they banned?

I am in the medical field and one that you may have unfortunately experienced gathering from your previous posts. I am a surgical oncologist.

In regards to why they are banned, good question. I had to google it. Glucocorticoids are banned because they produce a feeling of euphoria and hence may give athletes an unfair advantage and, because of their antiinflammatory effects, they mask pain associated with injuries. See http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/drugs/glossary/classes.html

 

[pmcg76]

That's ludicrous on it's surface. Surely you are not saying that the only reason he never spoke up about doping in the sport prior to LA is nobody asked him.

Maybe you got this from somewhere....do you have a link so I won't take this out of context? Thanks.

I think you are a little paranoid about your "enemy" in this debate, even to the point that you cover your ears to anything that may upset your black/white line of thinking.

My problem is that many have belittled the effects of drugs pre-EPO without proof or even firsthand knowledge (sans Buckwheat, who I don't think is being truthful about roids), discounting the ability of GL's admitted and proven doped top level adversaries at the time, having uncritical thinking of his meandering stance on his downfall over time, and putting him on a pedestal beyond reproach, the reason I believe has more to do with his stance against LA than anything else. We should be looking at these things without emotion.

In here I get branded as anti-GL because I choose to look at these issues critically, but nothing could be further from the truth as I have stated earlier a couple of times.

Its not really that ludicrous, before Festina doping was never really brought into the open, I can never recall a rider being asked about doping in interviews in magazines like Cycle Sport/Winning etc. It simply didnt happen because outside the pro bubble most people had no idea how bad it was, and a lot of journalists played along with the game anyway. I have an edition of Cycle Sport from early 95 which focused on the retirement of LeMond and doping is not mentioned once.

Who came along post 99, Lance. I dont think realise how much Festina blews the doors of the whole doping bandwagon. If people have come to the sport since Festina, its probably hard to digest a world where doping was pretty much ignored. Its completely different now and thats what has changed, the first time I ever heard about LeMond and his doping stance was when he was asked about the Lance/Ferrari relationship.

 

[red_flanders]

Its not really that ludicrous, before Festina doping was never really brought into the open, I can never recall a rider being asked about doping in interviews in magazines like Cycle Sport/Winning etc. It simply didnt happen because outside the pro bubble most people had no idea how bad it was, and a lot of journalists played along with the game anyway. I have an edition of Cycle Sport from early 95 which focused on the retirement of LeMond and doping is not mentioned once.

Who came along post 99, Lance. I dont think realise how much Festina blews the doors of the whole doping bandwagon. If people have come to the sport since Festina, its probably hard to digest a world where doping was pretty much ignored. Its completely different now and thats what has changed, the first time I ever heard about LeMond and his doping stance was when he was asked about the Lance/Ferrari relationship.

Thank you for that important perspective. I hope it's heard.

 

[patricknd]

I am in the medical field and one that you may have unfortunately experienced gathering from your previous posts. I am a surgical oncologist.

In regards to why they are banned, good question. I had to google it. Glucocorticoids are banned because they produce a feeling of euphoria and hence may give athletes an unfair advantage and, because of their antiinflammatory effects, they mask pain associated with injuries. See http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/drugs/glossary/classes.html

i suspected as much. you were way to knowledgeable to be a layman.

while i certainly hope i don't have need of his services again, i have to say that my main dr. made it a pretty interesting experience. one thing that i thought was pitiful was when he told me that unless i was falling down from anemia, insurance wouldn't cover epo. because of abuse for sporting purposes. at first i thought he was joking but he wasn't.

 

[buckwheat]

I think I understand now.....disagreement with buckwheat = see a therapist..

No, lying, distorting known facts. Dismissing arguments whose facts disagree with one's spin....

Let's please stay on topic and stop the personal attacks. My concern for you is real, unlike your use of people with psychological conditions as a punchline.

That is funny. I'm surprised you got the joke.

.......passive aggressive behavior........

Thanks.

Hey no problem. A lifelong friend of 40 years told me I could be honest with him about his dental work. The caps were fine. The problem is that he's an asshat. He didn't want to hear that truth.

I believe the thread is about GL, and doping suspicions in the 80's, not LA. I know it is hard not to revert to the hatefest but let's stay on topic. Thinking is much harder for me than posting insults, so please don't upset the riddum.

I don't understand why people go to such great lengths to avoid the obvious and spin apocryphal yarns. Care to enlighten me?

 

[pmcg76]

Thank you for that important perspective. I hope it's heard.

Yeah, I went and checked the details on LeMonds retirement. Got this from an interview with William Fotheringham in Cycle Sport, LeMond was speaking about his decline and how he had never had top health since his shooting accident and even though he won the Tour twice and the Worlds, he had never got back to the level he was at in 85/86.

His decline was contrasted with Pedro Delgado and Sean Kelly who had declined gradually whilst LeMond went from Tour champ to also ran. He was officially diagnosed with Muscle myopathy at the time and he was relieved that there had been a reason for his sudden decline. However he did tag this little nugget on to the reasons for his decline:

'And I think there's a lot of riders out there that aren't racing on just water either. I'm not accusing anybody, but I do think that there's some questionable things going on in pro cycling'.

In 1994, this was about as much as any journalist was going to get out of any cyclist in regards to doping. LeMond clearly knew what was going on but like every other pro of that era, he was ruled by ometra and as his team had not yet started using EPO, it was difficult for him to point fingers at other teams/riders without positive tests.

As I said before, its hard for people who were not around pre Festina to understand how much cycling was ruled by ometra.

 

[Franklin]

For me the thing LA and GL had in common was being invisible (read preparing in the USA) before and after the TdF untill the WC. That's definitely oversimplifying it, but it does count for both of them.

I always used to think that GL did the usual American athlete thing: juice up, train hard and come prepared. Note steroids etc. help with training/recup from training. It's not Epo, but it does work.

Then the '89 incdent with the infamous iron shot. The odd thing was that it was a quack treatment... unless you couple it with Epo (realisation came later) where iron shots are not unheard of.

Don't forget that ±89 is seen as the start of Epo (Oosterbosch and Draaijer anyone?). That year had the ressurection as GT specialists of both Laurent Fignon and Greg Lemond.

Is this proof GL was dirty.. no. But I personally think he did dope and quite structural as well. Why? It's just the sport and his nationality. In the 80's American sporters did dope and did get wavers form the Usa sport organisations.

And was Lance clean? well suffice to say odds in his case are so long that I won't say anything about him He's not the most likable person, I got to say that that annoys me the most.

But in the end both are great champions. I prefer to leave it at that.

 

[ChrisE]

I've read some of the links that have been given to me, so I am beginning to come around to the common knowledge in the forum. I will attempt to answer this with my newfound knowledge, in the hopes I will get back within the good graces of the smart kids in here.

For me the thing LA and GL had in common was being invisible (read preparing in the USA) before and after the TdF untill the WC. That's definitely oversimplifying it, but it does count for both of them.

You have no proof of that, in terms of GL. ZERO I say. Besides, GL was the most gifted athlete in the history of the world, so even if steroids work they were no match for him. Only EPO can beat GL.

I always used to think that GL did the usual American athlete thing: juice up, train hard and come prepared. Note steroids etc. help with training/recup from training. It's not Epo, but it does work.

No way, please reread the thread. We even have a poster in here that has used steroids and say they do no good.

Then the '89 incdent with the infamous iron shot. The odd thing was that it was a quack treatment... unless you couple it with Epo (realisation came later) where iron shots are not unheard of.

You are questioning the diagnosis of Otto the soigneur? TROLL!

Don't forget that ±89 is seen as the start of Epo (Oosterbosch and Draaijer anyone?). That year had the ressurection as GT specialists of both Laurent Fignon and Greg Lemond.

Fignon only doped to get within a minute of GL, with roids and stuff that didn't help him. If he was on EPO then GL would've succombed to his prowess like kryptonite to Superman.

Is this proof GL was dirty.. no. But I personally think he did dope and quite structural as well. Why? It's just the sport and his nationality. In the 80's American sporters did dope and did get wavers form the Usa sport organisations.

Again, not GL. He hates LA, so he is clean. TROLL.

And was Lance clean? well suffice to say odds in his case are so long that I won't say anything about him He's not the most likable person, I got to say that that annoys me the most.

That goes a long way of proving LA's guilt. He's an ***, so we know he doped. Nice guys don't dope, especially if they speak out vs LA. There are exceptions like Gilbert, but I digress.

But in the end both are great champions. I prefer to leave it at that.

You need to figure out which side you are on. You sound like me before my reincarnation as knowledgeable link reading LA hater!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I've read some of the links that have been given to me, so I am beginning to come around to the common knowledge in the forum. I will attempt to answer this with my newfound knowledge, in the hopes I will get back within the good graces of the smart kids in here.



You have no proof of that, in terms of GL. ZERO I say. Besides, GL was the most gifted athlete in the history of the world, so even if steroids work they were no match for him. Only EPO can beat GL.



No way, please reread the thread. We even have a poster in here that has used steroids and say they do no good.



You are questioning the diagnosis of Otto the soigneur? TROLL!



Fignon only doped to get within a minute of GL, with roids and stuff that didn't help him. If he was on EPO then GL would've succombed to his prowess like kryptonite to Superman.



Again, not GL. He hates LA, so he is clean. TROLL.



That goes a long way of proving LA's guilt. He's an ***, so we know he doped. Nice guys don't dope, especially if they speak out vs LA. There are exceptions like Gilbert, but I digress.



You need to figure out which side you are on. You sound like me before my reincarnation as knowledgeable link reading LA hater!

Hey, great work - a few more posts like this and Susan will send you the password to the secret 'LiveWrong' thread in the 'Cafe' - that where you will learn about steroids and amphetamines.

The troll line is great, but should be used sparingly - probably best to wait until you have explained the exact same thing time and again to someone or when it is someone like BPC who has 30+ usernames.

Its much easier to stick to really simple facts - that gets them every time.
As an example - Greg is back in the USA 'preparing' for the Tour, even though he was riding the Giro?? Or is it Otto or Yvan? Really simple stuff.

One word of advice though - you brought up Lance Armstrong.
Now I know what you are thinking - most of the smears come from the LA angle - and hey, you're right but if you bring him up you will end up having someone like ChrisE ranting that its a "diversionary tactic"... ya ya I know.

Best of luck -when you get the password swing by the 'Mellow Junkies' bar for some Trekquila's.

 

[ChrisE]

Hey, great work - a few more posts like this and Susan will send you the password to the secret 'LiveWrong' thread in the 'Cafe' - that where you will learn about steroids and amphetamines.

The troll line is great, but should be used sparingly - probably best to wait until you have explained the exact same thing time and again to someone or when it is someone like BPC who has 30+ usernames.

Its much easier to stick to really simple facts - that gets them every time.
As an example - Greg is back in the USA 'preparing' for the Tour, even though he was riding the Giro?? Or is it Otto or Yvan? Really simple stuff.

One word of advice though - you brought up Lance Armstrong.
Now I know what you are thinking - most of the smears come from the LA angle - and hey, you're right but if you bring him up you will end up having someone like ChrisE ranting that its a "diversionary tactic"... ya ya I know.

Best of luck -when you get the password swing by the 'Mellow Junkies' bar for some Trekquila's.

Actually doc, I felt kinda unfulfilled after I wrote that. I was all ready to feel the euphoria that infests all of my fellow posters when hating LA, uncritically defending GL, etc.

It wasn't all it was cracked up to be, kinda like blowing $1k in a topless bar. I think I will go back to the "critical thinking" ChrisE. Looking at things from different angles works better better for me.

I would imagine my senses would get dull just regurgitating the same tired talking points over and over again to people with different perspectives, I mean "trolls".

 

[Hugh Januss]

Actually doc, I felt kinda unfulfilled after I wrote that. I was all ready to feel the euphoria that infests all of my fellow posters when hating LA, uncritically defending GL, etc.

It wasn't all it was cracked up to be, kinda like blowing $1k in a topless bar. I think I will go back to the "critical thinking" ChrisE. Looking at things from different angles works better better for me.

I would imagine my senses would get dull just regurgitating the same tired talking points over and over again to people with different perspectives, I mean "trolls".

Please whatever you do, don't ever lose that special ChrisE ability to repeatedly be shown a 7 and continue to insist that it is a 3.