LEMOND the DOPER

[buckwheat]

You're sort of right, because a theory would involve at least some observed facts, and your "observation" lacks this.

I'd say it's most accurately "baseless speculation". But feel free to put it out there. The shots could also have been laced with Getafix's magic potion.

He's observing teh "facts" locked in his cranium.

When I was a young boy I put a tooth under my pillow at night(at Moms suggestion) and found a silver dollar in its place the next morning. At breakfast my mother said, "I told you so."

No one has ever contradicted her. I don't talk about this to teh specialists though.

 

[buckwheat]

Guys, this is a 2007 interview where Greg is giving an account of his job search after his injury. Greg's comments speak for themselves. His facts, not mine...

I have never heard this account until yesterday. What do you guys think of Greg's unnecessary removal of his appendix to mislead the "the only team who would take him"? And then to make the comment that "I didn't lie, giggle giggle, but I just did not tell them the absolute truth".

I find that incredible. Maybe I am just naive in regards to negotiating.
Or maybe I am just a troll.

But c'mon, that is like a rider telling us about the iron shots in the keester giggle giggle,
but neglecting to mention the EPO shots in the tummy.
.
.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgRpP_Sitk0
.

Very true!

Actually I've heard that the guy injecting LeMond with the "iron," invented EPO. Amgen kept it quiet.

 

[Polish]

What does this have to do with the reasons why he left PDM? You incorrectly (intentionally?) claimed that this tape showed a different reason, which is clearly not the case. You even put this claim in bold.

this trolling gets old after a while

RR, doctor M added the bold - not me.

But anyway - I still stand by that opinion:

Another part of the "Greg Myth" is that he was glad to be off PDM.
Not true, as this youtube audio describes. In fact, Greg seemed disappointed that PDM let him go.

If you can show evidence to support the myth that Greg ended the contract with PDM, and that he was glad to be off that team of dopers, I would truly appreciate it.

If the myth is true, then that may put the sneaky way he signed on with ADR in a softer light. Still sneaky though...

But he youtube audio suggests PDM had health concerns and that Greg was disappointed that the contract did not hold.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgRpP_Sitk0

 

[Dr. Maserati]

RR, doctor M added the bold - not me.

But anyway - I still stand by that opinion:

Another part of the "Greg Myth" is that he was glad to be off PDM.
Not true, as this youtube audio describes. In fact, Greg seemed disappointed that PDM let him go.

If you can show evidence to support the myth that Greg ended the contract with PDM, and that he was glad to be off that team of dopers, I would truly appreciate it.

If the myth is true, then that may put the sneaky way he signed on with ADR in a softer light. Still sneaky though...

But he youtube audio suggests PDM had health concerns and that Greg was disappointed that the contract did not hold.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgRpP_Sitk0

Are you being willfully dishonest or just ignorant in your claims from the 'youtube' clip you posted?

The only reference to PDM was that his Dad was in Europe negotiating a contract with a team (PDM) and part of their requirement was that GL race before the end of the 87 season - he does not say anything about PDM letting him go.

The team that sent him a 'get well' card followed by a 'goodbye' letter was Toshiba-Look.

And the interview wasn't from 2007 - it was recorded in 2000.

 

[Polish]

Are you being willfully dishonest or just ignorant in your claims from the 'youtube' clip you posted?

The only reference to PDM was that his Dad was in Europe negotiating a contract with a team (PDM) and part of their requirement was that GL race before the end of the 87 season - he does not say anything about PDM letting him go.

The team that sent him a 'get well' card followed by a 'goodbye' letter was Toshiba-Look.

And the interview wasn't from 2007 - it was recorded in 2000.

Doctor, I do not think I am being dishonest or ignorant.
Do you have any other options for me to chose from?

I am not denying that Toshiba-Look sent a get well card and goodbye letter.

I am drawing attention to Greg's comment about "not telling the truth" as he was negotiating with ADR. At that point in time, PDM had already let him go.
Greg sounds disappointed as he describes his job search during time frame.

My original and current point is that Greg wanted to ride for the Doper Team PDM. And to think that Greg did not know they were a Doper Team is silly.

"The powerful Dutch team, PDM, with which LeMond had signed a two-year deal in 1987, wanted to cut his 1989 salary by $200,000. "They had lost total confidence in me," he says. "They were trying to claim that maybe my liver was bad, my lung was shot up, maybe I had lead poisoning. That's why I wasn't riding well. They said, 'Maybe you're not going to ever come back.' "

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/cycling/1998/tourdefrance/tourdefrancearchive/tour2.html

 

[Race Radio]

My original and current point is that Greg wanted to ride for the Doper Team PDM. And to think that Greg did not know they were a Doper Team is silly.

You do realize that when Greg signed the PDM contract they had been a team for less then a year. The doping program had just started and was not widespread knowledge in the sport.

Regardless it was not until late 1989 when Wim Sanders joined the team that the doping program accelerated.

 

[red_flanders]

I am drawing attention to Greg's comment about "not telling the truth" as he was negotiating with ADR. At that point in time, PDM had already let him go.
Greg sounds disappointed as he describes his job search during time frame.

My original and current point is that Greg wanted to ride for the Doper Team PDM. And to think that Greg did not know they were a Doper Team is silly.

Was it the laughing in the interview that gave you this impression? Clearly, he was a guy in search of and needing a contract. Any contract. Such that he had to lie to a third-rate outfit like ADR to get hired.

It's clear that you're intentionally misrepresenting things to smear Lemond. I guess you hope that people won't listen to the audio and just read your crap posts. Race Radio addressed the point about PDM's team doping quite well I think.

The next two years were lost ones, professionally. Every time he started to show signs of progress, something would set him back. He had an emergency appendectomy four months after the shooting accident, ending his 1987 season. In July 1988 his comeback was further delayed by surgery to repair an infected tendon in his right shin, forcing him to miss the Tour de France for a second straight year. The powerful Dutch team, PDM, with which LeMond had signed a two-year deal in 1987, wanted to cut his 1989 salary by $200,000. "They had lost total confidence in me," he says. "They were trying to claim that maybe my liver was bad, my lung was shot up, maybe I had lead poisoning. That's why I wasn't riding well. They said, 'Maybe you're not going to ever come back.' "

Sounds to me like a team that was starting to get serious about a doping program decided it wanted to cut ties with Lemond. Not sure how you transformed that into Lemond sounding disappointed not to be working with PDM. Clearly he wouldn't have been happy about getting his contract terminated, but he implied nothing of the sort in the audio clip you link. I'd guess he was somewhat frustrated by losing his contract, but clearly he was just trying to get any contract he could. What we do have here is some neat timing--just about the time PDM started playing with EPO, they cut ties with Lemond. Probably coincidental and unrelated, but hardly an implication of Lemond. What is this theory, "guilt by severed association"?

If you'd have been watching the sport before 2000, you might have some actual insight into this. You're just dredging up old interviews, grossly spinning them with no basis in reality, and flat out making crap up. You seem to have an agenda.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Doctor, I do not think I am being dishonest or ignorant.
Do you have any other options for me to chose from?

I am not denying that Toshiba-Look sent a get well card and goodbye letter.

I am drawing attention to Greg's comment about "not telling the truth" as he was negotiating with ADR. At that point in time, PDM had already let him go.
Greg sounds disappointed as he describes his job search during time frame.

My original and current point is that Greg wanted to ride for the Doper Team PDM. And to think that Greg did not know they were a Doper Team is silly.

"The powerful Dutch team, PDM, with which LeMond had signed a two-year deal in 1987, wanted to cut his 1989 salary by $200,000. "They had lost total confidence in me," he says. "They were trying to claim that maybe my liver was bad, my lung was shot up, maybe I had lead poisoning. That's why I wasn't riding well. They said, 'Maybe you're not going to ever come back.' "

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/cycling/1998/tourdefrance/tourdefrancearchive/tour2.html

I think willfully dishonest or ignorant are the best options.

How else would you describe your view when it has been pointed out that the remarks made in the clip you posted relate to his 87 team Toshiba Look and the negotiations for 88 with PDM?
ADR (who he joined in 89) are not even mentioned in the clip.


So which is it?

 

[Polish]

I think willfully dishonest or ignorant are the best options.

How else would you describe your view when it has been pointed out that the remarks made in the clip you posted relate to his 87 team Toshiba Look and the negotiations for 88 with PDM?
ADR (who he joined in 89) are not even mentioned in the clip.


So which is it?

I thought this audio was describing the transition between PDM and ADR
Instead it describes the transition between Toshiba and PDM.

So it looks like Greg misled PDM and not ADR as I thought.
Not sure if that makes too much of a difference though.

Dishonest or Ignorant? OK, I chose ignorant.

 

[Oldman]

Was it the laughing in the interview that gave you this impression? Clearly, he was a guy in search of and needing a contract. Any contract. Such that he had to lie to a third-rate outfit like ADR to get hired.

It's clear that you're intentionally misrepresenting things to smear Lemond. I guess you hope that people won't listen to the audio and just read your crap posts. Race Radio addressed the point about PDM's team doping quite well I think.



Sounds to me like a team that was starting to get serious about a doping program decided it wanted to cut ties with Lemond. Not sure how you transformed that into Lemond sounding disappointed not to be working with PDM. Clearly he wouldn't have been happy about getting his contract terminated, but he implied nothing of the sort in the audio clip you link. I'd guess he was somewhat frustrated by losing his contract, but clearly he was just trying to get any contract he could. What we do have here is some neat timing--just about the time PDM started playing with EPO, they cut ties with Lemond. Probably coincidental and unrelated, but hardly an implication of Lemond. What is this theory, "guilt by severed association"?

If you'd have been watching the sport before 2000, you might have some actual insight into this. You're just dredging up old interviews, grossly spinning them with no basis in reality, and flat out making crap up. You seem to have an agenda.

I can't believe this thread is still flogging but I'd agree with you. PDM needed cash to proceed and a highly-paid, underperforming rider would be the first budget sacrifice, Lemond or whoever. It's not something that leads to a real conclusion to Greg's future training at all.

 

[Joey_J]

.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgRpP_Sitk0
.

What was that, 2000? I’ve heard it before in it’s entirety. I miss that LeMond. Listen to that interview. He seemed happy, open and honest not attacking anyone. Not miserable, not too defensive. How things changed a year later. His life went downwards since. Where would LeMond be today if he hadn’t accused LA of doping in 2001??

Pretty sad when you think about it.

 

[Race Radio]

What was that, 2000? I’ve heard it before in it’s entirety. I miss that LeMond. Listen to that interview. He seemed happy, open and honest not attacking anyone. Not miserable, not too defensive. How things changed a year later. His life went downwards since. Where would LeMond be today if he hadn’t accused LA of doping in 2001??

Pretty sad when you think about it.

The only thing that changed was Armstrong hiring Public Strategies to insure that Greg was slimed in a wide variety of media outlets. He successfully turned a couple of legitimate comments into a false jihad by Greg.

It appears these efforts worked as you still think Greg accused Lance of doping in 2001. This is what Greg said in 2001. A comment that echoed many fans of the sports feeling at the time.

When Lance won the prologue to the 1999 Tour I was close to tears, but when I heard he was working with Michele Ferrari I was devastated. In the light of Lance's relationship with Ferrari, I just don't want to comment on this year's Tour. This is not sour grapes. I'm disappointed in Lance, that's all.

For this comment Lance set out on a concerted campaign to ruin Greg's livelihood.

 

[ChrisE]

For this comment Lance set out on a concerted campaign to ruin Greg's livelihood.

You mean the public apology by GL for the insinuation about LA/Ferrari didn't save his livelihood?

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

For this comment Lance set out on a concerted campaign to ruin Greg's livelihood.

Greg just had the chance to get his own back - but decided to take the money instead.

 

[Race Radio]

You mean the public apology by GL for the insinuation about LA/Ferrari didn't save his livelihood?

No, it did not. Greg should have listen to John Burke when he agreed with Greg that what they were doing to him was extortion.

After they threaten to kill his brand, invent doping stories, and slime his public image Greg signed a press release that promised to stop their attacks.....of course it did not. From that day forward Trek rapidly reduced their support of the brand, told prospective dealers and European distributors they were shutting it down, and reduced the marketing and advertising push. Armstrong hired Public Strategies to spin a public narrative about Greg being old and bitter.

While the Armstrong groupies would have loved for this to have been a mud slinging festival the fact is the trial was about making Greg whole from a business perspective. Given Armstrong's far superior position in the media he would always be able to control the narrative, no matter how little of it is based on reality.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

These allegation remain unproven. Greg decided to take a settlement so clearly he wasn't that bothered.

 

[red_flanders]

Trek settled with Greg and clearly made considerable concessions and payment. They wanted to do neither. They lost. Some tiny measure of justice was done. Tiny.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Trek settled with Greg and clearly made considerable concessions and payment. They wanted to do neither. They lost. Some tiny measure of justice was done. Tiny.

But a settlement means the allegations remain unproven and there is no admission of guilt.

Trek didn't want Greg running their name through the mud all summer.

 

[Race Radio]

I have been banned for trolling over 30 times.

So unproven that Trek wrote him a nice big check.

Of course the Groupies would like to have this fought outside of court where facts do not matter and media spin is everything. Trek did that for 10 years, but as soon as it became clear they would have to fight this in front of a jury they begged for a settlement. Smart move by Greg

How many banned usernames are you up to now?

 

[ChrisE]

No, it did not. Greg should have listen to John Burke when he agreed with Greg that what they were doing to him was extortion.

After they threaten to kill his brand, invent doping stories, and slime his public image Greg signed a press release that promised to stop their attacks.....of course it did not. From that day forward Trek rapidly reduced their support of the brand, told prospective dealers and European distributors they were shutting it down, and reduced the marketing and advertising push. Armstrong hired Public Strategies to spin a public narrative about Greg being old and bitter.

While the Armstrong groupies would have loved for this to have been a mud slinging festival the fact is the trial was about making Greg whole from a business perspective. Given Armstrong's far superior position in the media he would always be able to control the narrative, no matter how little of it is based on reality.

I was kidding. Will you ever stop taking my jabs seriously?

I agree with what you are saying in general, but maybe not as dramatically as you state. You have always had a way with adjectives.

You must admit it was disappointing that GL settled, and was contrary to the CW in here about the principled warrior fighting LA/Trek to the judicial death. I was getting whiplash reading the posts in here afer the settlement.

I would've like to have seen it go to trial, but we can't always get what we want.

 

[red_flanders]

But a settlement means the allegations remain unproven and there is no admission of guilt.

Great. And we all know what that means. A distinction without a difference.

Trek didn't want Greg running their name through the mud all summer.

Right. Neither did Lance or the sport. Lots of pressure on everyone to settle I'm sure. As someone said back in the day, it would have blown the roof off the whole sport.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Of course the Groupies would like to have this fought outside of court where facts do not matter and media spin is everything. Trek did that for 10 years, but as soon as it became clear they would have to fight this in front of a jury they begged for a settlement. Smart move by Greg

So much for it not being about the money then.

 

[Race Radio]

Random troll babble.

Of course a business lawsuit is about money.

Trek sunk Greg's brand. Armstrong interfered with Greg's business dealings. This caused Greg to lose money. As much as you would wish to see this fought in the court of public opinion this will never happen.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I was kidding. Will you ever stop taking my jabs seriously?

I agree with what you are saying in general, but maybe not as dramatically as you state. You have always had a way with adjectives.

You must admit it was disappointing that GL settled, and was contrary to the CW in here about the principled warrior fighting LA/Trek to the judicial death. I was getting whiplash reading the posts in here afer the settlement.

I would've like to have seen it go to trial, but we can't always get what we want.

Maybe you should have read the comments before the settlement - here were my views back in December....

Firstly - I don't believe this case will go to trial, unfortunately. Trek & Lance have too much to lose so I expect them to make Greg an offer he can't refuse.

.
Yes, I would have liked it to go all the way to trial - but I can understand why GL settled too.

PS
Whats CW?? I have checked here, even Christopher Walken gets a mention.

 

[Race Radio]

I was kidding. Will you ever stop taking my jabs seriously?

I agree with what you are saying in general, but maybe not as dramatically as you state. You have always had a way with adjectives.

You must admit it was disappointing that GL settled, and was contrary to the CW in here about the principled warrior fighting LA/Trek to the judicial death. I was getting whiplash reading the posts in here afer the settlement.

I would've like to have seen it go to trial, but we can't always get what we want.

I know you were joking.

I have always said that Greg should settle. Even when Greg wins in court a mudslinging match only benefits Armstrong who has shown to be a master at it. The American public has proven time and again that when it comes to Armstrong they are willing to suspend rational thought.