LEMOND the DOPER

[happychappy]

sdgsfhfghdhd

greg lemon is a doper like the rest of them

 

[L'arriviste]

Come one now, quit it with the big text, please. Visual pollution that adds nothing to the quality of your arguments, whether or not they're valid.

 

[ChrisE]

Let's cool it with the personal stuff, everyone.

This is actually my day off and I will get testy if I have to start handing out warnings and suspensions on my free day.....

Susan

Susan,

Thanks for straightening these guys out. I pm'd several posters last night that were attacking me, and I told them you would be ****ed and to knock it off.

Have a nice day off.

 

[issoisso]

greg lemon is a doper like the rest of them

Greg Lemon's comments are too acid for my taste

Punilicious

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Susan,

Thanks for straightening these guys out. I pm'd several posters last night that were attacking me, and I told them you would be ****ed and to knock it off.

Have a nice day off.

Hope you took your own advice as well.

Susan

 

[buckwheat]

Come one now, quit it with the big text, please.

Are you having a visceral reaction to the big text?

Visual pollution

So I would be correct in the assumption that you spend your days picking up trash and refuse from the streets because of the visual pollution? Do you ever walk past garbage on the ground and act like you don't see it?

We had a commercial in the U.S. on TV about 30 years ago. Someone throws garbage out of their car window on the highway and they focus on the tears coming from the eyes of an old Indian. He was upset at the defiling of the landscape. That must be you! Hey man, it's killing me too and I'm Green also!

that adds nothing to the quality of your arguments,

Quality of my arguments?

It's more like an obvious observation. Unfortunately, ChrisE and others cannot master the obvious. Which is that the only person of consequence who has made any accusations regarding LeMond doping is Strongarm, recrimination boy.

whether or not they're valid.

Whether or not they're valid?????

They're statements which are a matter of public record brought to light in Walsh's FLTL.

Without Pharmstrong's accusations, all the allegations emanate from the peanut gallery on the internetS.

PS. to all the LeMond slanderers. Please attach one name (of someone that matters) to the GL doping allegations besides LA. kthsxbye.

 

[L'arriviste]

Are you having a visceral reaction to the big text?




So I would be correct in the assumption that you spend your days picking up trash and refuse from the streets because of the visual pollution? Do you ever walk past garbage on the ground and act like you don't see it?

We had a commercial in the U.S. on TV about 30 years ago. Someone throws garbage out of their car window on the highway and they focus on the tears coming from the eyes of an old Indian. He was upset at the defiling of the landscape. That must be you! Hey man, it's killing me too and I'm Green also!



Quality of my arguments?

It's more like an obvious observation. Unfortunately, ChrisE and others cannot master the obvious. Which is that the only person of consequence who has made any accusations regarding LeMond doping is Strongarm, recrimination boy.




Whether or not they're valid?????

They're statements which are a matter of public record brought to light in Walsh's FLTL.

Without Pharmstrong's accusations, all the allegations emanate from the peanut gallery on the internetS.

Wow, that's a bit strong, isn't it? I wasn't questioning the validity of anyone's arguments ("whether or not they're valid") and I wasn't singling you out.

I just personally found the big text distracting and unhelpful but of course you're entitled to use it if you want to.

 

[CycloErgoSum]

So you think that LeMond didn't take drugs?

I don't recall anyone even alluding to Greg Lemond's drug intake, it seems he has had serious alcohol problems he has dealt with.

Explain then, how in the course of a couple of days, mid 1989, he could go from being shelled out the back at even dropped by the sprinters in the mountains of the Giro to finishing on the podium during the final time trial - and then going onto win the Tour and the Worlds. Seeing Greg go up the final climb in the worlds just made a complete mockery of everyone in the race. An impressive piece of big gear climbing.

A lot of people have suspicions on him as well.

Armstrong. Not just the greatest US cyclist, but the greatest cyclist of all time IMO.

Greg Lemond should have, could have, would have... Armstrong did.

I happen to believe Greg LeMond was a first class doper, just not with EPO.

According to your earlier posts, doping is overrated, doesn't make much of a difference, and everybody who wins does it cleanly. Now you think Lemond was doper? Everyone's clean except Lemond? One can only wonder what it's like to be this brutally stupid.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Susan,

Thanks for straightening these guys out. I pm'd several posters last night that were attacking me, and I told them you would be ****ed and to knock it off.

Have a nice day off.

Brown nosing suck-up.

 

[buckwheat]

Wow, that's a bit strong, isn't it? I wasn't questioning the validity of anyone's arguments ("whether or not they're valid") and I wasn't singling you out.

I just personally found the big text distracting and unhelpful but of course you're entitled to use it if you want to.

My intent was to have people focus on the obvious. It's obvious that they're having difficulty so I have to spoon feed them.

You act as though looking at the big text is like staring at the noonday sun.

Again, I repeat, I made an obvious statement that is apparently not sinking in.

LA is the only person with any standing in the cycling community who has suggested that LeMond doped.

Comprende?

 

[buckwheat]

Wow, that's a bit strong, isn't it? I wasn't questioning the validity of anyone's arguments ("whether or not they're valid") and I wasn't singling you out.

I just personally found the big text distracting and unhelpful but of course you're entitled to use it if you want to.

My intent was to have people focus on the obvious. It's obvious that they're having difficulty so I have to spoon feed them.

You act as though looking at the big text is like staring at the noonday sun.

Again, I repeat, I made an obvious statement that is apparently not sinking in.

LA is the only person with any standing in the cycling community who has suggested that LeMond doped.

Comprende?

 

[CycloErgoSum]

My intent was to have people focus on the obvious. It's obvious that they're having difficulty so I have to spoon feed them.

You act as though looking at the big text is like staring at the noonday sun.

Again, I repeat, I made an obvious statement that is apparently not sinking in.

LA is the only person with any standing in the cycling community who has suggested that LeMond doped.

Comprende?

Yes, and his motivation is clear: he has a pecuniary interest in perpetuating such a vexacious claim (not to mention an egocentric interest as well)

 

[L'arriviste]

My intent was to have people focus on the obvious. It's obvious that they're having difficulty so I have to spoon feed them.

You act as though looking at the big text is like staring at the noonday sun.

Again, I repeat, I made an obvious statement that is apparently not sinking in.

LA is the only person with any standing in the cycling community who has suggested that LeMond doped.

Comprende?

Look, I don't have a problem with what you're saying - you've assumed I disagree on this stuff: I think you're right and I believed Lemond back in '91 - I just found the big text a bit heavy. But yes, I get your point, I'm the one with the problem and I'll be quiet now.

 

[buckwheat]

Wow, that's a bit strong, isn't it? .

Evidently it wasn't strong enough, because the slander of LeMond continues without any evidence at all, save the recriminations from Wonderboy.

I wasn't questioning the validity of anyone's arguments ("whether or not they're valid").

What were you doing?

and I wasn't singling you out..

Yes, you were. See your quote on the bottom.

I just personally found the big text distracting and unhelpful.

Were you forced to avert your eyes?

but of course you're entitled to use it if you want to.

Thanks. BTW, doesn't it seem kind of necessary when the peanut gallery just fabricates whole narratives out of Armstrong's unsupported allegations?

Come one now, quit it with the big text, please. Visual pollution that adds nothing to the quality of your arguments, whether or not they're valid.

 

[L'arriviste]

Evidently it wasn't strong enough, because the slander of LeMond continues without any evidence at all, save the recriminations from Wonderboy.




What were you doing?




Yes, you were. See your quote on the bottom.



Were you forced to avert your eyes?



Thanks. BTW, doesn't it seem kind of necessary when the peanut gallery just fabricates whole narratives out of Armstrong's unsupported allegations?

Please see my last post above. I really wasn't singling you out. I meant "you" plural - I think it was happychappy who was also using the big text. I actually agree with you, I just felt things were getting a bit crazy.

 

[buckwheat]

Look, I don't have a problem with what you're saying - you've assumed I disagree on this stuff: I think you're right and I believed Lemond back in '91 - I just found the big text a bit heavy. But yes, I get your point, I'm the one with the problem and I'll be quiet now.

And now that we're in agreement I understand your point.

When someone like myself starts protesting too much against the Sarah Palins of the world, they risk coming off as a clown.

It's a risk I'm willing to take.

 

[Oldman]

And now that we're in agreement I understand your point.

When someone like myself starts protesting too much against the Sarah Palins of the world, they risk coming off as a clown.

It's a risk I'm willing to take.

Wait, I'll get my rubber nose and be back with you. We can take the risk together.

 

[Oncearunner8]

Dude, Lance (I guess we're on a first name basis) has to be in here because He is the only person of any standing in cycling who has made a doping allegation against LeMond!

cool your jets bhuweat.
That text you used was unnecessary, do you have bad eyesite?

That toaster remark towards ChrisE was awsome. I need to use that sometime when I am trying to post replies to you and romperoom.

 

[buckwheat]

cool your jets bhuweat.
That text you used was unnecessary, do you have bad eyesite?

That toaster remark towards ChrisE was awsome. I need to use that sometime when I am trying to post replies to you and romperoom.

Thanks, I try to keep it light.

I'm rubber, you're glue.....

Hey, you know, I was supposed to meet the Romper Room lady in Woolworths when I was about 3. Unfortunately my sister got all nervous, had an anxiety attack, and threw a tantrum. Meeting was canceled. She was 4.

I've had a hard life.

 

[L'arriviste]

Thanks, I try to keep it light.

I'm rubber, you're glue.....

Hey, you know, I was supposed to meet the Romper Room lady in Woolworths when I was about 3. Unfortunately my sister got all nervous, had an anxiety attack, and threw a tantrum. Meeting was canceled. She was 4.

I've had a hard life.

Cavendish thread is over there...

 

[buckwheat]

That text you used was unnecessary, do you have bad eyesite?

Actually yes, my visual acuity is extremely poor. My prescription is like -9.50 but with contacts it can be corrected to better than 20/20. I've got great peripheral vision though. Go figure.

In order to read without glasses, I have to hold the book like three inches from my face and close one eye.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Wow, this thread is a real spin out.

Just getting caught up, I think Joe Papp had a keen observation:

"there was no drug that could give him an advantage that he didn't already have."

Now, with his prodigious talent, using the techniques of the time would have certainly boosted him a degree or two higher, I find no reason to look sideways at his results and suspect anything. When you are already winning, confident and have everything you need, I've got to believe that the temptation to dope is minimized.

While it is generally recognized that Lemond is one of the elite talents in the history of cycling, and that the era in which he raced had a limited and clumsy underbelly of doping, it did exist and the positives and stories that have emerged show this.

Until Lemond admits to doping (as in never), or someone in his inner circle with no axe to grind comes forward to "tell a story", I do not think it a stretch to keep the Lemond name firmly in the "Didn't Dope" column.

I do find Lemond's recollection of the doping going on at the time, and his pirported naiveté, to be selective and a bit embellished via the passing of time. Guys all around him were on speed, horse steroids, etc., and he (of perfect French) maintains a sort of "I had no idea what they were talking about, I was just a simple kid from Nevada" type of answer when pressed.

Nonetheless, his performance truly degraded once EPO got a foothold, and he seemingly missed that train and subsequently retired, as the sport boosted past. That era slammed shut like a collapsed vein.

I have heard some claim "he doth protest too much", sort of doping homophobe, if you will. Possibly. But we'll simply need more to go on. At this point, there is truly nothing.

 

[Oldman]

Wow, this thread is a real spin out.

Just getting caught up, I think Joe Papp had a keen observation:

"there was no drug that could give him an advantage that he didn't already have."

Now, with his prodigious talent, using the techniques of the time would have certainly boosted him a degree or two higher, I find no reason to look sideways at his results and suspect anything. When you are already winning, confident and have everything you need, I've got to believe that the temptation to dope is minimized.

While it is generally recognized that Lemond is one of the elite talents in the history of cycling, and that the era in which he raced had a limited and clumsy underbelly of doping, it did exist and the positives and stories that have emerged show this.

Until Lemond admits to doping (as in never), or someone in his inner circle with no axe to grind comes forward to "tell a story", I do not think it a stretch to keep the Lemond name firmly in the "Didn't Dope" column.

I do find Lemond's recollection of the doping going on at the time, and his pirported naiveté, to be selective and a bit embellished via the passing of time. Guys all around him were on speed, horse steroids, etc., and he (of perfect French) maintains a sort of "I had no idea what they were talking about, I was just a simple kid from Nevada" type of answer when pressed.

Nonetheless, his performance truly degraded once EPO got a foothold, and he seemingly missed that train and subsequently retired, as the sport boosted past. That era slammed shut like a collapsed vein.

I have heard some claim "he doth protest too much", sort of doping homophobe, if you will. Possibly. But we'll simply need more to go on. At this point, there is truly nothing.

My skepticism would come largely from the very significant improvement in '89, when he thought of quitting because he was getting dropped by what he characterized as domestic chumps (my paraphrase). He went home to California and trained with Otto Jacombe alone for more than a month, then went to the Tour. One of his teammates admitted after he retired to using EPO then and used the phrase "riding like two men". For all who want to question LA's current training regime; the similarities are very similar. Still, no hard evidence to support use by Lemond.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

My skepticism would come largely from the very significant improvement in '89, when he thought of quitting because he was getting dropped by what he characterized as domestic chumps (my paraphrase). He went home to California and trained with Otto Jacombe alone for more than a month, then went to the Tour. One of his teammates admitted after he retired to using EPO then and used the phrase "riding like two men". For all who want to question LA's current training regime; the similarities are very similar. Still, no hard evidence to support use by Lemond.

He had ridden the Giro, fat and out of shape to start, and rode into form. Then, going on a training bloc, alone in California (seems reasonable), and coming to the Tour in decent shape. None of that raises my eyebrows.

Now, questioning the 1988 season, coming back from his accident, riding on PDM (walks like a duck), and then going in 89 to the lower stature ADR team.

EPO has been purported to be around but little understood. Keep in mind how deep the traditions run in cycling. As an innovator, Lemond ushered in several pieces of racing equipment that changed things, are you pointing to him as a possible innovator in advanced prep techniques?

Even if so, I still can't understand, if he'd had this advantage, how far backwards he went when EPO was on everyones pre-race checklist.

 

[Oldman]

He had ridden the Giro, fat and out of shape to start, and rode into form. Then, going on a training bloc, alone in California (seems reasonable), and coming to the Tour in decent shape. None of that raises my eyebrows.

Now, questioning the 1988 season, coming back from his accident, riding on PDM (walks like a duck), and then going in 89 to the lower stature ADR team.

EPO has been purported to be around but little understood. Keep in mind how deep the traditions run in cycling. As an innovator, Lemond ushered in several pieces of racing equipment that changed things, are you pointing to him as a possible innovator in advanced prep techniques?

Even if so, I still can't understand, if he'd had this advantage, how far backwards he went when EPO was on everyones pre-race checklist.

I can't explain it either. That's why the cyclical argument this thread has generated, again isn't likely to come to a conclusion that satisfies anyone. His team mate's admitted EPO use was the first suspicious element, beyond the solo training. Also; he'd had no standout performance since he'd come back, was financially on shakey ground. Much circumstantial evidence and logic is used to debate here and this is another instance. I should probably leave it alone as I thoroughly enjoyed is '89 performance.