LEMOND the DOPER

[Dr. Maserati]

Is it really that difficult to take EPO? I think Armstrong would have won the Tour several times, Ferrari or no Ferrari.

Of course you do BPC.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Fair enough, though do you think the period of suspicion regarding LA should really begin with Ferrari or even earlier? Why blame it all on him? I mean, he had bad people around him even before that, didn't he? Also, his moral compass was also pretty infamously well-known even by the time he was in his late teens, early 20's. Ferrari was just the most blatant sign post.

You buy EPO in Switzerland or over the net, so how much do you take, when do you take it, how often do you take it, do you need anything else to ehance the effects.......Dr. Ferrari is a hemotologist, so his expertise is in blood - this takes it to a different level.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

You buy EPO in Switzerland or over the net, so how much do you take, when do you take it, how often do you take it, do you need anything else to ehance the effects.......Dr. Ferrari is a hemotologist, so his expertise is in blood - this takes it to a different level.

It either raises the red blood cell count or it does not. Sure Ferrari would know a little more about it - he could probably use less of it to get the same results - but the medical processes of EPO taking was very well studied and known about in the peloton, and doctors had been around in the peloton for many years. Riders had studied into it so much that many of them and their coaching staff were basically hematologists themselves in this narrow area of increasing oxygen in the blood. It's as likely that Ferrari was useful to Armstrong in his threshold coaching as he was for doping.

Remember too that it's unlikely Armstrong even took EPO for most of his tour wins. After the test came in he did not trust it and switched to using his own blood.

 

[peloton]

Is it really that difficult to take EPO? I think Armstrong would have won the Tour several times, Ferrari or no Ferrari.

BPC, gotta say you are one stubborn troll.
How much are you paid, if I may ask?

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

He came third with no Ferrari last year, guys.

 

[luckyboy]

He came third with doped up blood values.

What does this have to do with Lemond anyways?

 

[Franklin]

It's rather simple to deny actually. There is no evidence whatsoever. You accuse because he rounded into form faster than you think he should have. 20+ years ago. You really followed his form that closely at the time, or are you an internet avenger, cobbling together stories you've heard?

What is it with you guys????

The second you doubt Greg raced on water and bread you are a hater? Yes, I use the "hater" word. I hope that shocks some people into reality: it's like LA fans the other way around. Being on neither side seems to be impossible?

This is the clinic, isn't it?

And considering Winnen, Zoetemelk and Hinault were my heroes when I grew up, considering I was glued to the television when cycling was on the telly (which is a lot in my country) and I even went to visit races (I shook Greg's hand in 89) and was devouring every cycling magazine published here, I dare say I rank as a very close follower indeed.

"Hard to deny"? I've seen denials from people with the smoking gun of positive tests. I've seen denials from their fans. Pretty easy to deny a doping accusation against a rider who has ****ed off a lot of really angry and powerful people who have actively tried to smear him. And he comes out smelling like a rose. STRONG benefit of the doubt. This thread is a joke.

Your "rose" matured at Guimard's team. He would be quite the exception to the rule. The truth is we do not know either way. we definitely can't say he was clean or dirty considering most of them never got caught even if we now know by admission that they indeed did dope after all.

We have to take him at face value and in that case: yes he is quite innocent. As are Big Mig, Rominger and Tonkov.

What is it about Greg that makes it horrible to even consider he used more than water and bread?

The big thing people seem to have for him is his actions against Lance and his advice to Landis. Both are in many ways laudable actions. His vulnerability in interviews is also extremely endearing. He's one of my heroes just like Fignon and Hinault. I grew up with them battling for the win.

But my liking, no loving these riders doesn't make me believe that they are saints. They were cyclists in the dark ages, in dark tinted teams in the days of the quack. Greg brought tapering to it, as he was (generally seen as)the first who started to focus solely on the TdF (probably due to his horrible accident, he had to prioritize). In some ways he did lead the way.

I draw a parallel towards the normal practice in cycling where doping was (and will foerver be?) seen as a necessity. If he was such a profesional, why wouldn't he leading the way in doping? Personally that wouldn't bother me one bit, but it seems even suggesting this riles up a lot of people.

Because in general in this forum we believe in guilt by association (don't deny it)... and if that is true it's incredibly hypocritical to make an exception where we truly do not know what happened. What we do know is that it could very well be true and could very well be not true. We also know something "quackish" happened. the oddity is that noone has a real explenation about it... the second someone suggests it could connect with plasma doping it's foul play?

I say again: this is the clinic. We should be able to explore theories like these.

Well, I'm sorry but that's exceedingly revisionist. His TT and climbing were such that no one, including himself or his teammates and coaches thought he was a GT rider. Quite obviously he wasn't taking EPO in the first few years of his career in Europe. He was nothing close to "the best" at this point.

First off, it isn't obvious at all that Lance didn't juice from the start. According to Betsy he actually confessed. Now the question is: was this before or after Ferrari (and does it even matter?). Considering his performance against a juiced generation. Note that LBL is a pretty "good" thermometer on dope. And guess what? Lance was very good at that race. So saying Lance was obviously not taking Epo is quite stunning.

Secondly, not close to the best? Not in winning stage races, but in tough stages and touch one day races he was a force at very young age. Lance has been a sensation since he started and never was close to being just a chump. no one knew he would become the GT monster he would become, but he definitely wasn't a mule turned into a race-horse even though thats how people like to portrait him. No one here and definitely not me denies he was juiced to the gills and combines that with an extremely unlikely character.

 

[red_flanders]

What does this have to do with Lemond anyways?

If you can divert attention away from the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever against Lemond, you can make yourself think that Lance is no worse than Lemond. It helps with the cognitive dissonance.

Because this entire thread and this entire line of discussion isn't about Lemond. It's about Lance. It's about the subset of blindly faithful, salad-tossing Lance fans wanting it to be true that Lemond doped, despite all evidence to the contrary. Because then they can take their fingers out of their ears and stop shouting "Hear no Evil" to themselves.

 

[red_flanders]

What is it with you guys????

The second you doubt Greg raced on water and bread you are a hater? Yes, I use the "hater" word. I hope that shocks some people into reality: it's like LA fans the other way around. Being on neither side seems to be impossible?

This is the clinic, isn't it?



Your "rose" matured at Guimard's team. He would be quite the exception to the rule. The truth is we do not know either way. we definitely can't say he was clean or dirty considering most of them never got caught even if we now know by admission that they indeed did dope after all.

We have to take him at face value and in that case: yes he is quite innocent. As are Big Mig, Rominger and Tonkov.

What is it about Greg that makes it horrible to even consider he used more than water and bread?

The big thing people seem to have for him is his actions against Lance and his advice to Landis. Both are in many ways laudable actions. His vulnerability in interviews is also extremely endearing. He's one of my heroes just like Fignon and Hinault. I grew up with them battling for the win.

But my liking, no loving these riders doesn't make me believe that they are saints. They were cyclists in the dark ages, in dark tinted teams in the days of the quack. Greg brought tapering to it, as he was (generally seen as)the first who started to focus solely on the TdF (probably due to his horrible accident, he had to prioritize). In some ways he did lead the way.

I draw a parallel towards the normal practice in cycling where doping was (and will foerver be?) seen as a necessity. If he was such a profesional, why wouldn't he leading the way in doping? Personally that wouldn't bother me one bit, but it seems even suggesting this riles up a lot of people.

Because in general in this forum we believe in guilt by association (don't deny it)... and if that is true it's incredibly hypocritical to make an exception where we truly do not know what happened. What we do know is that it could very well be true and could very well be not true. We also know something "quackish" happened. the oddity is that noone has a real explenation about it... the second someone suggests it could connect with plasma doping it's foul play?

I say again: this is the clinic. We should be able to explore theories like these.



First off, it isn't obvious at all that Lance didn't juice from the start. According to Betsy he actually confessed. Now the question is: was this before or after Ferrari (and does it even matter?). Considering his performance against a juiced generation. Note that LBL is a pretty "good" thermometer on dope. And guess what? Lance was very good at that race. So saying Lance was obviously not taking Epo is quite stunning.

Secondly, not close to the best? Not in winning stage races, but in tough stages and touch one day races he was a force at very young age. Lance has been a sensation since he started and never was close to being just a chump. no one knew he would become the GT monster he would become, but he definitely wasn't a mule turned into a race-horse even though thats how people like to portrait him. No one here and definitely not me denies he was juiced to the gills and combines that with an extremely unlikely character.

Lots of words. Any facts? No.

As someone said before, it's one thing to say it's possible Lemond doped. It's possible.

But the amount of speculation, rancor, accusations and flat-out mistruths that come up about him is totally out of proportion to the zero evidence against him. It's fueled by one thing--the need for him to be dirty so that people can deal with the sport in it's present state. And for Lance to be no worse than anyone else, when in fact, yes, he is worse.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

If you can divert attention away from the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever against Lemond, you can make yourself think that Lance is no worse than Lemond. It helps with the cognitive dissonance.

Because this entire thread and this entire line of discussion isn't about Lemond. It's about Lance. It's about the subset of blindly faithful, salad-tossing Lance fans wanting it to be true that Lemond doped, despite all evidence to the contrary. Because then they can take their fingers out of their ears and stop shouting "Hear no Evil" to themselves.

Personally I don't think that Lemond doped. I believe this is why he career took such a dramatic dive in the early 1990s. Great tour riders sucked during that era unless they were on a full programme.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Is it really that difficult to take EPO? I think Armstrong would have won the Tour several times, Ferrari or no Ferrari.

Oh right, because he would have known on his own when to take it and when not to and what masking drugs to take when, not to mention knowing the proper recipe for the cocktail of complementary drugs to take along with the EPO. Without Ferrari Armstrong would have been caught the first year there was a test.

 

[Franklin]

Lots of words. Any facts? No.

As someone said before, it's one thing to say it's possible Lemond doped. It's possible.

But the amount of speculation, rancor, accusations and flat-out mistruths that come up about him is totally out of proportion to the zero evidence against him. It's fueled by one thing--the need for him to be dirty so that people can deal with the sport in it's present state. And for Lance to be no worse than anyone else, when in fact, yes, he is worse.

I'm not sure what to think of this. So doubting Greg is squeaky clean equals believing Lance is ok.

Facts as his teams history and the state of the sport and what pro's of that time said are swept under the rug.

Good luck with this thread, I lost interest in this discussion. Please go on with the veneration.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It either raises the red blood cell count or it does not. Sure Ferrari would know a little more about it - he could probably use less of it to get the same results - but the medical processes of EPO taking was very well studied and known about in the peloton, and doctors had been around in the peloton for many years. Riders had studied into it so much that many of them and their coaching staff were basically hematologists themselves in this narrow area of increasing oxygen in the blood. It's as likely that Ferrari was useful to Armstrong in his threshold coaching as he was for doping.

Remember too that it's unlikely Armstrong even took EPO for most of his tour wins. After the test came in he did not trust it and switched to using his own blood.

Which is why you have a hematologist on your payroll and you remain ahead of the others - well done Sproket01, I really think we made progress today, that will be £200 please.

 

[Race Radio]

He came third with no Ferrari last year, guys.

Any evidence to prove that he is no longer working with Ferrari?

Aren't you in Mallorca now or is that one of you 30 banned usernames? You need to get some sleep so you can get out for that 30km group ride tomorrow

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Which is why you have a hematologist on your payroll and you remain ahead of the others - well done Sproket01, I really think we made progress today, that will be £200 please.

I'm not convinced it would make the great difference that you apply to it. I'd first have to see some sort of evidence of the things that Dr Ferrari could do that just weren't available to other riders. It's convenient to talk him up as a way of talking down Armstrong. To me it seems like the way the media often talk up a popular politician's spin doctor as a way of saying their black arts are the only reason the politician is popular in the first place.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Any evidence to prove that he is no longer working with Ferrari?

The absense of evidence that he is? I can't produce anything more than that I'm afraid. I can't prove that you're not working with him either.

Aren't you in Mallorca now or is that one of you 30 banned usernames? You need to get some sleep so you can get out for that 30km group ride tomorrow

No it was this user that said I went to Mallorca. Well done for remembering.

I've just got back. I went out with Cat 2 riders and thrashed them up every mountain that we did in the Island, so I'm pretty pleased with myself. Thanks for taking an interest.

 

[Race Radio]

I'm not convinced it would make the great difference that you apply to it. I'd first have to see some sort of evidence of the things that Dr Ferrari could do that just weren't available to other riders. It's convenient to talk him up as a way of talking down Armstrong. To me it seems like the way the media often talk up a popular politician's spin doctor as a way of saying their black arts are the only reason the politician is popular in the first place.

Ferrari is banned in Italy. If you are a Pro and use him as a coach you can get banned. Does anyone really believe this is due to his interval workouts? Does anyone think that Armstrong would pay him $800,000 a year for interval workouts or drugs he can get at his local GNC?

 

[BroDeal]

You have to love this crazy theory by the Lemond haters/Armstrong fanboys that Lemond's soigneur gave him one shot of EPO during the Giro and it was not only so fast acting that Lemond nearly won the Giro's final time trial but it was also so long lasting that he won the Tour because of it. That must have been some super EPO.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Ferrari is banned in Italy. If you are a Pro and use him as a coach you can get banned. Does anyone really believe this is due to his interval workouts? Does anyone think that Armstrong would pay him $800,000 a year for interval workouts or drugs he can get at his local GNC?

I don't know where you get those figures.

There is only the drugs that the big pharmaceutical companies have manufactured. He won't have access to some special EPO or steroids that he made himself.

 

[red_flanders]

You have to love this crazy theory by the Lemond haters/Armstrong fanboys that Lemond's soigneur gave him one shot of EPO during the Giro and it was not only so fast acting that Lemond nearly won the Giro's final time trial but it was also so long lasting that he won the Tour because of it. That must have been some super EPO.

It's gold.

Let me anticipate the next move:

<internal monologue> "What's he talking about?? Oh, yeah. I keep saying "Iron Shot" and that does kind of imply a single event. That doesn't make sense."

Whirrrrrrrr............</internal monologue>

"The statement about an iron shot could just be a cover for what just might have been a full EPO program. I don't have any evidence for this, but it makes sense in light of his coming on to form. After all, when Armstrong almost quit in Paris-Nice, he came back to form, and we all (now) admit that was with the aid of EPO. So let's just say Lemond got on the EPO program after the Giro. I know this is just speculation, but let's run with it for a while."

 

[red_flanders]

I don't know where you get those figures.

There is only the drugs that the big pharmaceutical companies have manufactured. He won't have access to some special EPO or steroids that he made himself.

Definitely. No one in top-level sport ever used a drug that wasn't widely available legally and on the open market. Good call.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Definitely. No one in top-level sport ever used a drug that wasn't widely available legally and on the open market. Good call.

Well of course it's all black market in the sense that the riders won't really have anemia or whatever, but it's all still the same stuff from big pharma.

Look at how CERA swepted the field in the last few years. Are we really to believe this one doctor could use a drug like that so much better than all the other doctors and coaches out there? Doesn't past the smell test to me.

 

[BroDeal]

Well of course it's all black market in the sense that the riders won't really have anemia or whatever, but it's all still the same stuff from big pharma.

Look at how CERA swepted the field in the last few years. Are we really to believe this one doctor could use a drug like that so much better than all the other doctors and coaches out there? Doesn't past the smell test to me.

Sure, trollboy, that's why Armstrong paid Dr. Ferrari not to prepare his rivals...

 

[red_flanders]

Well of course it's all black market in the sense that the riders won't really have anemia or whatever, but it's all still the same stuff from big pharma.

Google BALCO.

Look at how CERA swepted the field in the last few years. Are we really to believe this one doctor could use a drug like that so much better than all the other doctors and coaches out there? Doesn't past the smell test to me.

I don't necessarily believe he's got better stuff. I do think he's the best at what he does in terms of his understanding of hematology, it's application to cycling, and how to manipulate the drugs on hand to their best effect. He's simply the best (or one of the top 2 or 3) doctors in the world on this topic, and his expertise is both invaluable and expensive. Not really that complicated. Maybe he's using better stuff than most of the others, who knows? Being the top expert, he may have more info on the efficacy of new stuff showing up on the (black or normal) market.

What does this have to do with Lemond again? Oh yeah. Lance isn't any worse than anyone else. The true thread topic.

 

[ChrisE]

He's simply the best (or one of the top 2 or 3) doctors in the world on this topic...

I am really interested in seeing the list that has been compiled comparing the doping doctors.

I have googled but can't find anything. Does Consumer Reports or something have annual rankings? Thanks.