LEMOND the DOPER

[Bala Verde]

I am really interested in seeing the list that has been compiled comparing the doping doctors.

I have googled but can't find anything. Does Consumer Reports or something have annual rankings? Thanks.

Why don't you open a new thread and start collecting doctors data and current/past team affiliations. No doubt with the collective effort of forumites you'll soon get a nice list...

 

[ChrisE]

Why don't you open a new thread and start collecting doctors data and current/past team affiliations. No doubt with the collective effort of forumites you'll soon get a nice list...

You mean there is no formal ranking from a respected publication, using real time data and documented results?

Surely there must be something concrete that everybody bases their absolutism on, as opposed to rabid groupthink on an internet forum. Sheesh.

 

[Polish]

You have to love this crazy theory by the Lemond haters/Armstrong fanboys that Lemond's soigneur gave him one shot of EPO during the Giro and it was not only so fast acting that Lemond nearly won the Giro's final time trial but it was also so long lasting that he won the Tour because of it. That must have been some super EPO.

It was amazing that ONE shot of ANYTHING could do the trick/transformation.
Was it really only one shot? It really had to have been more?
Can the body even absorb enough Iron from ONE shot?

That must have been some super duper IRON.

 

[red_flanders]

You mean there is no formal ranking from a respected publication, using real time data and documented results?

Surely there must be something concrete that everybody bases their absolutism on, as opposed to rabid groupthink on an internet forum. Sheesh.

Surely there's something more interesting than calling everything you disagree with on a forum groupthink, no? Something insightful? Meaningful? Surely being contrarian for it's own sake is idiotic?

Surely you can read which very few hematologists have worked with the top cyclists over the last 20 years?

 

[Race Radio]

It is sad to see how the groupies grasp in desperation to an Iron shot. Armstrong promised he would find 10 people would would say Greg used EPO. Former teammates and staff where offered significant sums of $$$ to invent stories about Greg, none of them took the offer.

The story behind the single iron shot does little to support the idea that Greg doped. After receiving the shot Greg went downstairs for an interview with a Bicycling magazine reporter. He proceeded to tell him about the shot and how uncomfortable it made him feel. He talked about how he had avoided needles his entire career, not just because he hated them but also because of what they represented in the sport.

To infer that this was actually EPO is absurd. Does any rational person think that after taking an experimental drug that was not even released to the public yet, a drug that the possession and use of would be a criminal offense, that Greg would tell a reporter about it? Really? Sounds like wishful thinking

 

[euphrades]

It was amazing that ONE shot of ANYTHING could do the trick/transformation.
Was it really only one shot? It really had to have been more?
Can the body even absorb enough Iron from ONE shot?

That must have been some super duper IRON.

Actually Lemond stated that it was then at that point it was determined that his body was not able to absorb iron through normal pills and etc and that since being shot that his iron levels were not like they were before and as a result he needed injections. I think there is a lot of assumptions that he had one shot and then made a miraculous recovery. If my memory serves me right this was made during the middle of the Giro and he had a series of shots and he gave it all for the TT and just rode the groupoo for the mountain stages.

 

[buckwheat]

It is sad to see how the groupies grasp in desperation to an Iron shot. Armstrong promised he would find 10 people would would say Greg used EPO. Former teammates and staff where offered significant sums of $$$ to invent stories about Greg, none of them took the offer.

The story behind the single iron shot does little to support the idea that Greg doped. After receiving the shot Greg went downstairs for an interview with a Bicycling magazine reporter. He proceeded to tell him about the shot and how uncomfortable it made him feel. He talked about how he had avoided needles his entire career, not just because he hated them but also because of what they represented in the sport.

To infer that this was actually EPO is absurd. Does any rational person think that after taking an experimental drug that was not even released to the public yet, a drug that the possession and use of would be a criminal offense, that Greg would tell a reporter about it? Really? Sounds like wishful thinking

Apparently Armstrong got Rachel Uchitel to say she provided GL with EPO.

Just what I heard.

 

[buckwheat]

Surely being contrarian for it's own sake is idiotic?

That's the explanation?

Thanks.

 

[VeloCity]

I am really interested in seeing the list that has been compiled comparing the doping doctors.

I have googled but can't find anything. Does Consumer Reports or something have annual rankings? Thanks.

Athlete demand is a pretty obvious indicator.

 

[BroDeal]

Athlete demand is a pretty obvious indicator.

The price the doctors can charge is a good indicator. Even riders like Virenque were astounded by the cost to hire Ferrari. Fuentes charged Hamilton 35K euros a year. Ferrari was charging Armstrong many times more than that.

 

[VeloCity]

The price the doctors can charge is a good indicator. Even riders like Virenque were astounded by the cost to hire Ferrari. Fuentes charged Hamilton 35K euros a year. Ferrari was charging Armstrong many times more than that.

"If Ferrari agreed to work with you, and you could afford him-he typically charged between 10 and 20 percent of a rider's salary-it would make your career."

http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-3-12-13773-1-P,00.html

"For the next decade, [Ferrari] was a hunted man-pursued by investigative reporters and law enforcement on the one hand and, on the other, by riders seeking his services. Erwann Menthéour, a French ex-pro who was one of the first athletes to be suspended for EPO use, in 1997, writes in his book, Secret Defense, of going to visit "il dottore." In the waiting room, Menthour says, he saw "some of the greatest athletes in the world sitting there, like a virgin on her first visit to the gynecologist. It almost made me laugh out loud." In the fall of 1994, Ferrari helped Swiss rider Tony Rominger break cycling's sacred hour record. Twice. The following spring, his riders swept the top five places in the Giro d'Italia, led by Rominger and the Russian Evgeni Berzin, a burly pursuit rider who'd somehow become a climber."

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

What might have set Ferrari apart from other doctors was his brilliance as a mathematicianal coach. This talent was sought even during the stages of tours for his calculations about other riders likely threshold limit. There is a notorious story about how Pantani was left to blow himself out after Bruyneel contacted Ferrari from the team car. He was by far the best coach for this in the peloton at that time. Remember he helped his mentor Conconi pinoneer the 'Conconi Test' which became a standard test for endurance athletes.

So there is another aspect to the story we should remember.

 

[Polish]

Actually Lemond stated that it was then at that point it was determined that his body was not able to absorb iron through normal pills and etc and that since being shot that his iron levels were not like they were before and as a result he needed injections. I think there is a lot of assumptions that he had one shot and then made a miraculous recovery. If my memory serves me right this was made during the middle of the Giro and he had a series of shots and he gave it all for the TT and just rode the groupoo for the mountain stages.

Yes, a series of shots seems to make more sense.

Who came up with the "single-shot" hypothesis?

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, a series of shots seems to make more sense.

Who came up with the "single-shot" hypothesis?

The more obvious answer is who came up with the multiple shot story?

I have already told you the story of how lemond relayed his use of iron to a reporter. You can try to twist it all you want but it does not change this.

 

[Race Radio]

clueless troll babble

How many times have you used the same garbage to try to troll the board? You need to get some new material.

 

[Hugh Januss]

What might have set Ferrari apart from other doctors was his brilliance as a mathematicianal coach. More troll babble................

So there is another aspect to the story we should remember.

So I googled that word of yours there.........this is all I could come up with.

So It's Blue Monday

Monday, January 18, 2010

Well, at least according to this article at Treehugger.com it is anyways. Psychologist Cliff Arnall of Cardiff University developed a formula to come to this conclusion. I'm not so edumacated on all that mathematicianal type stuff so I will just have to take his word for it. Meh, it's Monday; makes sense, right?...

.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What might have set Ferrari apart from other doctors was his brilliance as a mathematicianal coach. This talent was sought even during the stages of tours for his calculations about other riders likely threshold limit. There is a notorious story about how Pantani was left to blow himself out after Bruyneel contacted Ferrari from the team car. He was by far the best coach for this in the peloton at that time. Remember he helped his mentor Conconi pinoneer the 'Conconi Test' which became a standard test for endurance athletes.

So there is another aspect to the story we should remember.

I am not sure what a "mathematicianal coach" is BPC, but if its a hematologist then you are correct.

 

[euphrades]

The more obvious answer is who came up with the multiple shot story?

I have already told you the story of how lemond relayed his use of iron to a reporter. You can try to twist it all you want but it does not change this.

Actually this is the way the story went:

http://www.mensjournal.com/greg-lemond-vs-the-world

"Then there was the incident from the Giro d’Italia in that same year, when LeMond was struggling. In front of a VeloNews reporter, LeMond received three injections — of iron, he insists, nothing illegal. Nevertheless, his performance improved dramatically"

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

What I mean by "mathematicianal coach" is someone who uses their mathematical skills to great effect as a coach.

Sorry if that caused great confusion.

 

[Race Radio]

Actually this is the way the story went:

http://www.mensjournal.com/greg-lemond-vs-the-world

"Then there was the incident from the Giro d’Italia in that same year, when LeMond was struggling. In front of a VeloNews reporter, LeMond received three injections — of iron, he insists, nothing illegal. Nevertheless, his performance improved dramatically"

This is what happens when a reporter gets his information from a Public Strategies talking point and not from the reporter who was actually there.

Velonews had the real story in their Giro issue last year.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What I mean by "mathematicianal coach" is someone who uses their mathematical skills to great effect as a coach.

Sorry if that caused great confusion.

So if JB/LA were looking for a coach with "mathematical skills" why did they hire a hematologist?

Why didn't they just hire this guy?

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

So if JB/LA were looking for a coach with "mathematical skills" why did they hire a hematologist?

Why didn't they just hire this guy?

Because his mathematicitical skills were in his specialist area of endurance sports. This is where his life's work had been spent. You should read up on his story.

I was also going to mention his famous one to one skills with riders, transforming their attitudes and approach, and the way he became great frends in their lives beyond cycling, but I wasn't sure if the egg shells could take it....

 

[Kennf1]

What might have set Ferrari apart from other doctors was his brilliance as a mathematicianal coach. This talent was sought even during the stages of tours for his calculations about other riders likely threshold limit. There is a notorious story about how Pantani was left to blow himself out after Bruyneel contacted Ferrari from the team car. He was by far the best coach for this in the peloton at that time. Remember he helped his mentor Conconi pinoneer the 'Conconi Test' which became a standard test for endurance athletes.

So there is another aspect to the story we should remember.

Yes, we have all heard that story over, and over, and over. Ferrari was walking in the woods when his phone rang, and able to calculate how long Pantani could go without actually seeing him ride, and no accurate measure of how fast he was going, or what drugs he was on. Uh huh.

With regard to Conconi, you do know that he was a pioneer in the use of blood transfusions, right?

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Yes, we have all heard that story over, and over, and over. Ferrari was walking in the woods when his phone rang, and able to calculate how long Pantani could go without actually seeing him ride, and no accurate measure of how fast he was going, or what drugs he was on. Uh huh.

Wasn't his work with Bruyneel and Armstrong fairly secret at that time? I don't think a story like that would get out if he didn't have something to it. They probably had a general idea that he had attacked too early and it wasn't all as precise as it sounded. Still interesting that they would make a call on that.

With regard to Conconi, you do know that he was a pioneer in the use of blood transfusions, right?

Yes with the hour record I believe. There was blurring of the lines between what was cutting edge science and doping at the time. There is a good article on it somewhere.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Of course, there is a strong overlap between Ferrari's mathematicitical threshold caculations and his hematology. You can't really seperate the two. It's the threshold mathematical part that gave him the ability to work out precisely how much dope is needed to achieve a certain goal. An hematolgist alone would only have one part of the solution - how dope works in the body. But his studying of endurance tests meant he could use that knowledge to ascertain precise amounts needed.

I suppose if he had an 'edge' over other people then it would be the ability to combine these skills. It's my sense that his hemotology - a more detailed understanding of red blood cells - did not in itself give him some incredible gain over other doctors who also understood these processes. If you study up on the science of blood for a few years then there really isn't that much to know - even people on this board have picked up a lot of knowledge from reading about blood profiles. This just allowed him to implement his theshold work and have access to lots of dope because of his doctor status - the key reason doctors were needed before Joe Papp's internet.

By just focusing on the dope, as though his work was all about mixing stuff in a test tube in a lab, you sort of miss the full story. That's really just my point.