LeMond: Ullrich is the best rider of his generation, he would have won every Tour

[pmcg76]

He never said that. Why make it up?

Well if you claim LeMond finished in the gruppetto because of EPO, then how do you explain beating riders on EPO in a long-*** TT during the same race. That is illogical. Either EPO benefits you or it doesn't.

In the back groups? Why bring in the revisionism?

What revisionism? FFS, Kimmage was finishing ahead of LeMond in some mountains stage in the 89 Giro and in 1990 he finished 105th in GC so where do you think he was finishing in the mountains, hardly with the leaders? In fact, in one mountain stage in Giro 90, he was allowed to go in the break of the day, the one the non-entities usually go in and was only caught on the final climb. He probably would have been even further back in GC except for that break. There is no revisionism here.



Does anyone believe the talent of Andy Schleck is comparable to the talent of Greg LeMond?

How do you measure that exactly?

Does anyone believe the level of the field now is comparable to the level of the field in 1989? There isn't a GT contender who will be racing the Tour clean this year. There might have been a few odd guys on oxygen vector drugs in 1989. Everyone in the field is at a higher level.

Then tell us where you think a top level LeMond would finish in a current Tour?

 

[kingjr]

Does anyone believe the talent of Andy Schleck is comparable to the talent of Greg LeMond?

His talent for climbing is probably greater.

 

[pmcg76]

How would you have any idea what was common knowledge? No one who wasn't doing it knew what was going on when it first hit. It took years for some teams to catch on. That LeMond, who by all accounts rode clean as a whistle, would have had no idea is not only believable but the likely conclusion.

Of course on the other hand, he's been lying for 3 decades, all the guys who rode with him and say he was utterly clean are lying or clueless, etc. etc. That all has to be true for your silly scenarios to pan out. It's not. Clueless.

Who is clueless where? Where have I said LeMond doped. Nowhere. I said unboubtedly LeMond knew of the usage of EPO in the peloton by the time he retired. Why did he allude to "strange things happening in cycling" when he retired?

Read testimonies by Riis, Skibby, Zulle, Jaermann, Fignon, Voet on Festina, Gaumont, Sturgess, Parkin and probably far more than I can remember and tell me it wasn't common knowledge what was happening by 94. As I said, the French teams bar Festina were the last to switch to EPO because they were living in denial.

 

[red_flanders]

Who is clueless where? Where have I said LeMond doped. Nowhere. I said unboubtedly LeMond knew of the usage of EPO in the peloton by the time he retired. Why did he allude to "strange things happening in cycling" when he retired?

Read testimonies by Riis, Skibby, Zulle, Jaermann, Fignon, Voet on Festina, Gaumont, Sturgess, Parkin and probably far more than I can remember and tell me it wasn't common knowledge what was happening by 94. As I said, the French teams bar Festina were the last to switch to EPO because they were living in denial.

Read. You said you think he had to have known what was going on back in 1994 despite a post above that is a direct quote where he clearly states what he did and didn't know.

For your posts to make sense, he has to be lying. As has been shown 50 million times in the past, he's not.

Try and follow.

 

[red_flanders]

Well if you claim LeMond finished in the gruppetto because of EPO, then how do you explain beating riders on EPO in a long-*** TT during the same race. That is illogical. Either EPO benefits you or it doesn't.

Well...the point was that neither I nor the person you quoted said that. So why make it up?

What revisionism? FFS, Kimmage was finishing ahead of LeMond in some mountains stage in the 89 Giro and in 1990 he finished 105th in GC so where do you think he was finishing in the mountains, hardly with the leaders? In fact, in one mountain stage in Giro 90, he was allowed to go in the break of the day, the one the non-entities usually go in and was only caught on the final climb. He probably would have been even further back in GC except for that break. There is no revisionism here.

While LeMond was crap by his standards, he didn't finish in the "back groups" and got stronger throughout the race. He finished the race an hour down on the winner Fignon. Crap for LeMond but actually not that bad. What was he, 39th? This after getting shot.

Not 124th, not 80th in his prime. For him 39th was horrible.

How do you measure that exactly?

By simply observing what he did his entire career. Win, win and win. At every level, without dope. What has Schleck done? Nothing. Gifted a win because the other guy doping got caught for some miniscule nonsense. Nothing w/o dope. He's literally a running joke.

Then tell us where you think a top level LeMond would finish in a current Tour?

I would have to look at the times. Probably in the mid-twenties or 30s. Maybe on a great year he cracks the top 10. But I doubt it.

 

[pmcg76]

Well...the point was that neither I nor the person you quoted said that. So why make it up?



While LeMond was crap by his standards, he didn't finish in the "back groups" and got stronger throughout the race. He finished the race an hour down on the winner Fignon. Crap for LeMond but actually not that bad. What was he, 39th? This after getting shot.

Not 124th, not 80th in his prime. For him 39th was horrible.




By simply observing what he did his entire career. Win, win and win. At every level, without dope. What has Schleck done? Nothing. Gifted a win because the other guy doping got caught for some miniscule nonsense. Nothing w/o dope. He's literally a running joke.



I would have to look at the times. Probably in the mid-twenties or 30s. Maybe on a great year he cracks the top 10. But I doubt it.

Oh I see, so my quip was quite valid. I am not the one putting forward these idiotic ideas of being eliminated because of EPO.

And the Giro 1990? You are ignoring that, I aint ignoring anything.

You say LeMond won, won, won but then say he would be maybe Top 20 in current Tour which ironically is where Andy finished last year. So who is the bigger talent again? How can anyone judge any current rider against LeMond? Oh that's right, you cannot because none of them competed in the pre Oxygen Vector era to see how they would have performed or vice versa.

But people sure love to put forward the idea that nobody is as talented as LeMond but really it's just bunkum becasue nobody knows the definitive answer.

 

[red_flanders]

...yawn...

But people sure love to put forward the idea that nobody is as talented as LeMond but really it's just bunkum becasue nobody knows the definitive answer.

Point to where I put that idea forward.

You sure do like to make things up and then debunk them. I think there's a term for that...

You asked me to guess where he'd be now. I guessed. You complain.

I look forward to the next installation of buffoonery.

 

[hrotha]

Read. You said you think he had to have known what was going on back in 1994 despite a post above that is a direct quote where he clearly states what he did and didn't know.

For your posts to make sense, he has to be lying. As has been shown 50 million times in the past, he's not.

Try and follow.

Not that I believe LeMond doped (at least willingly; that iron shot will always be shady), but I honestly have a very hard time believing he didn't know anything.

Especially when I remember an interview from 1994 where he sort of danced around the issue but subtly implied the peloton (primarily the Italians, but also hinting at Indurain) was doped to the gills.

In general I think some of the arguments put forward to defend LeMond are a bit weak and would be rightfully brushed aside if used to defend any other riders. You guys don't need to do that. Just stick to the facts and LeMond comes out rather well.

 

[red_flanders]

Not that I believe LeMond doped (at least willingly; that iron shot will always be shady), but I honestly have a very hard time believing he didn't know anything.

Especially when I remember an interview from 1994 where he sort of danced around the issue but subtly implied the peloton (primarily the Italians, but also hinting at Indurain) was doped to the gills.

In general I think some of the arguments put forward to defend LeMond are a bit weak and would be rightfully brushed aside if used to defend any other riders. You guys don't need to do that. Just stick to the facts and LeMond comes out rather well.

The exact same stuff he said in the passage above. He knew something was going on, knew who, and a pretty good idea what but not sure enough to state it outright.

We all have decades of hindsight here.

You wouldn't even know about the iron shot if he hadn't told the reporter. It's a non story.

 

[Benotti69]

Some seem to willfully continue to ignore LeMond's anti doping stance going back to 1989.

If he was a doper, someone somewhere would've crawled out of the omerta and squealed on the hypocrite!

 

[pmcg76]

Point to where I put that idea forward.

You sure do like to make things up and then debunk them. I think there's a term for that...

You asked me to guess where he'd be now. I guessed. You complain.

I look forward to the next installation of buffoonery.

Did I say you individually. No. People is a collective term, not singular.

You guessed where he would finish and put him in a position in which Andy Schleck finished last season even though you say Andy has no talent. That has nothing to do with me, not my fault you shot your own claim in the foot.

Your descent into name-calling is pretty standard clinic behaviour, can't refute the points, start the name calling.

 

[Avoriaz]

Not that I believe LeMond doped (at least willingly; that iron shot will always be shady), but I honestly have a very hard time believing he didn't know anything.

He can't have not known anything if he left PDM in the 80s because of drugs. his old team mate Draaijer died in 1990 and they were supposedly close friends ( meaning Lemond would be aware of drugs, not that he is guilty by association).

Lemond was undoubtedly clean, but some riders have made capital from the doping made me quit excuse too long after they quit. I'd probably put Obree in this camp too - was always under the impression he was ousted from Le
Groupement because he couldn't ride in a peloton style (ie was a tt specialist with no discernible road racing skills). Again Obree also to me undoubtedly clean

 

[Benotti69]

He can't have not known anything if he left PDM in the 80s because of drugs. his old team mate Draaijer died in 1990 and they were supposedly close friends ( meaning Lemond would be aware of drugs, not that he is guilty by association).

Lemond was undoubtedly clean, but some riders have made capital from the doping made me quit excuse too long after they quit. I'd probably put Obree in this camp too - was always under the impression he was ousted from Le
Groupement because he couldn't ride in a peloton style (ie was a tt specialist with no discernible road racing skills). Again Obree also to me undoubtedly clean

I'd love to know how much 'capital' Obree made. Guy is hardly living it large!!!

LeMond talked about doping in 1989 before quiting the sport.

Not too many journalists asked doping questions. I am sure some were told but ignored them as it would mean being blacklisted.

 

[hrotha]

He can't have not known anything if he left PDM in the 80s because of drugs. his old team mate Draaijer died in 1990 and they were supposedly close friends ( meaning Lemond would be aware of drugs, not that he is guilty by association).

Hyperbole plus I was referring more to EPO really.

 

[red_flanders]

Did I say you individually. No. People is a collective term, not singular.

You guessed where he would finish and put him in a position in which Andy Schleck finished last season even though you say Andy has no talent. That has nothing to do with me, not my fault you shot your own claim in the foot.

Your descent into name-calling is pretty standard clinic behaviour, can't refute the points, start the name calling.

Wow, you got me. My guessing at where he'd place at your request puts him equal with A Scheck all doped up. So what?

 

[pmcg76]

There are a lot of myths that are peddled here to make LeMond out to be some sort of anti-doping hero. I don't believe he doped but I do believe he knew what was going on at the time.

I don't know what he is supposed to have said in 89 that made him anti-doping. The story about LeMond quitting PDM because of drugs was actually revealed by his lawyer, not LeMond and it originally appeared in the LA Times shortly after his 89 Tour win.Ironically LeMond was thinking of taking legal action because he thought the story was associating him with doping.

On his retirement in 94 he said in an interview with Cycle Sport that "strange things were happening in cycling" but went no further in his explanation.

The next public statment was the 97 interview Race Radio linked when the cat was well out of the bag on the subject of EPO. It was only after Festina that LeMonds story changed about why he quit the sport. That is the extent of LeMonds public anti-doping until he was dragged into the Lance episode.

In the 92 Tour LeMond finished 5th in the infamous Luxembourg TT beating plenty of guys who were considered EPO dopers. A few days later he finished outside the time limit in the mountains. Clearly it is not logical to say that was because of EPO and is much more likely to have been because of his failing health, when one day he was good, the next awful.

He was so bad in 93 he didn't even make the GAN team for the Tour. If it was due to EPO abuse, does this mean there were others guys at GAN who were on EPO because they were all going better than LeMond? Again not logical and the obvious answer is LeMonds health was shot, he also apparently suffered from pollen allergies but when Festina broke, it gave LeMond a nice cover excuse.

Many posters put LeMond on a pedestal and talk about him as if he was the greatest talent ever but how do you compare a LeMond with current talent. People point to his success but how do you compare that with the Oxygen Vector doping era. Again it's not logical or fair on other athletes to try to do so. Nobody knows how talented any of the current crop of riders are in relation to LeMond because nobody know's who the clean riders are or what a clean rider is actually capable of doing.

 

[pmcg76]

Wow, you got me. My guessing at where he'd place at your request puts him equal with A Scheck all doped up. So what?

Wait, I thought doped up Andy was capable of competing for GTs but now doped up Andy can only finish 20th. So he cut back and is now totally clean I guess. Now why would he do that exactly?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I thought this was a Ullrich thread. Whatever. My question would be how the Lemond defenders (I defend him too when it´s proper) explain his crazy up/down performances after his "deathbead" incident. Something all very sucsessful riders seem to have had. But I don´t use that against Lemond. I just mention it.
More interesting are the mysterious sicknesses he had. This common thing with other big time winners is more suspicious.
Why are gruppeto results are used against other riders, while Lemonds are just ignored.
I would not say with certainty that Lemond was clean in the most doping riddled era of cycling.
OTOH, it speaks for him that no one accused him ever (AFIK), and that he worked with Koechli.

 

[the delgados]

I thought this was a Ullrich thread. Whatever. My question would be how the Lemond defenders (I defend him too when it´s proper) explain his crazy up/down performances after his "deathbead" incident. Something all very sucsessful riders seem to have had. But I don´t use that against Lemond. I just mention it.
More interesting are the mysterious sicknesses he had. This common thing with other big time winners is more suspicious.
Why are gruppeto results are used against other riders, while Lemonds are just ignored.
I would not say with certainty that Lemond was clean in the most doping riddled era of cycling.
OTOH, it speaks for him that no one accused him ever (AFIK), and that he worked with Koechli.

My guess is Greg knew how to play the game. Lance didn't. LA ruined it for everybody.

 

[red_flanders]

Wait, I thought doped up Andy was capable of competing for GTs but now doped up Andy can only finish 20th. So he cut back and is now totally clean I guess. Now why would he do that exactly?

If you think he's clean now more power to ya.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

My guess is Greg knew how to play the game. Lance didn't. LA ruined it for everybody.

Do I understand you right? You mean nobody spoke out about him, because he didn´t make enemys like LA did? Given the "omerta family of cycling", and the wide spread doping of the 80s, this makes the most sense...

 

[del1962]

Do I understand you right? You mean nobody spoke out about him, because he didn´t make enemys like LA did? Given the "omerta family of cycling", and the wide spread doping of the 80s, this makes the most sense...

I think the thing that makes most sense in favour of LeMond being clean is that Lance and his team would have pulled out all stops to find some evidence against him and under these circumstances it is almost certain such evidence would have appeared in the public domain.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Possible. But how? Walking over to some poor cyclist from the 80s: "Hey Pedro, you know Lemond doped. I give you 100.000 USD to openly talk about his secrets".
Pedro: "Leave me alone. I am a retired cyclist, have my own problems. Why should I warm old stories. Everybody was doing something, but I have no evidence, nobody has. This is almost 20 years ago. I am not like you and throw friends in the dust bin anyway..."

 

[del1962]

Possible. But how? Walking over to some poor cyclist from the 80s: "Hey Pedro, you know Lemond doped. I give you 100.000 USD to openly talk about his secrets".
Pedro: "Leave me alone. I am a retired cyclist, have my own problems. Why should I warm old stories. Everybody was doing something, but I have no evidence, nobody has. This is almost 20 years ago. I am not like you and throw friends in the dust bin anyway..."

The thing is though is Armstrong had really strong contacts within American Cycling, people like the Och who would probably have known if LeMond was doping?

 

[the delgados]

@FoxxyBrown1111:
Yes, you understand me. Seems Lemond is the only rider of the past 100 years that people will go to bat for, so I need to reiterate that I have no effing clue if he doped. Do I think he did? Yes. But again, I do not know, so I ask others to please refrain from asking me to provide particulars.

@del1962:
I'm pretty sure Lance's team pulled out all stops to find evidence. Again, I refer to Omerta and LA"s assholishness.