LeMond: Ullrich is the best rider of his generation, he would have won every Tour

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The thing is though is Armstrong had really strong contacts within American Cycling, people like the Och who would probably have known if LeMond was doping?

I said it´s possible he was clean, as it´s possible he was doping. We will never know. How can Ochowicz know what injections were done at LaVieClaire?
I think Lemond was one of the cleaner riders, a youth hero, a likable rider. Later there came some shadows; concentraiting on the TdF only, some arrogant behaviour, the bars he used that were illegal at the time, his up/down results & mysterious sickness after his accident...
Anyway, if he wasn´t transfusing*, his results are legit, unlike those after the start of the Epo era.

* But I am not even sure about that anymore, since it came to light that riders already infused in the mid 80s. How can you beat blood boosted riders in the 80s if you couldn´t in the 90s/00s?

 

[red_flanders]

the bars he used that were illegal at the time,

totally wrong as usual...

 

[hrotha]

* But I am not even sure about that anymore, since it came to light that riders already infused in the mid 80s. How can you beat a blood boosted rider in the 80s if you couldn´t in the 90s/00s?

The science of blood doping was in its infancy, if it was used at all during GTs.

 

[red_flanders]

The science of blood doping was in its infancy, if it was used at all during GTs.

I know of no evidence that it was used in GT's, and I've seen a LOT of people try and claim it.

To be clear, I'm not confounding proof and evidence. I've literally never seen anything more than "it existed at the time" and "they must have".

I have never heard of anyone in cycling claim or even discuss blood doping in GT's until the 2000's.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

totally wrong as usual...

Yeah sure. You come around with nothing to underline your statement, but try to hack away at others that don´t fit your POV, as usual...
Anyway, I go with those who rode with/against him. There is no reason for me to think that Fignon made the story up in his book.

Why don´t you just go away to the Sky thread and drivel there? We had a good discussion here until you came out of your hole.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

@FoxxyBrown1111:
Yes, you understand me. Seems Lemond is the only rider of the past 100 years that people will go to bat for, so I need to reiterate that I have no effing clue if he doped. Do I think he did? Yes. But again, I do not know, so I ask others to please refrain from asking me to provide particulars.

@del1962:
I'm pretty sure Lance's team pulled out all stops to find evidence. Again, I refer to Omerta and LA"s assholishness.

OK, thanks for clarifying.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The science of blood doping was in its infancy, if it was used at all during GTs.

Rooks and Theunisse at Alpe at least + injections... I mean it´s difficult to beat such boosted riders if you are on bread and water alone. Another great failed in such attempts (Bassons).

 

[red_flanders]

Yeah sure. You come around with nothing to underline your statement, but try to hack away at others that don´t fit your POV, as usual...
Anyway, I go with those who rode with/against him. There is no reason for me to think that Fignon made the story up in his book.

Why don´t you just go away to the Sky thread and drivel there? We had a good discussion here until you came out of your hole.

I thought maybe you'd go read up. Or maybe you'd realize that if they were "illegal" one of the race marshals might have noticed him using them in both TTs, as well as others IIRC.

They were allowed in that race. Fignon tried them and decided not to use them. It was well discussed at the time, it had never been done at the Tour and made a huge splash. You know, some stations televised the race and discussed the tri bars at length after the first TT. It's been a fairly widely watched event for some time now.

Fignon was dumb and forsake a helmet as well. Sour grapes and utter BS to say it was "illegal". Yes, according g to UCI it was not allowed. The TdF officials allowed all riders to use them in '89 and Fignon chose not to.

Not illegal. Explicitly allowed.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Good. I can´t go back in time, nor do I remember who said what in 1989. And I am too lazy to go to my libary to search for the Fignon book...
In short, I give you the point.
You see, if you behave normal (w/o calling others trolls or being arrogant), you can convince sometimes...

 

[MonkeyFace]

Later there came some shadows;

concentraiting on the TdF only,

What are you talking about? He won the worlds after his comeback. Even at that, healthwise he was never teh same after the accident. Name a tour rider that has won the tdf and the worlds in the same year recently.

some arrogant behaviour

In comparison to what? I haven't seen this but what sin would it be if true.

the bars he used that were illegal at the time

NO

, his up/down results & mysterious sickness after his accident...

Mystery? What mystery? He still has lead shot in his chest.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

drunk

How many shots did you have?
@ mods: I never ask for deleting anything (being it insults, strong jokes, being off topic), but such rookie trying to hi jack a thread b/c he don´t like what he reads goes to far. Agree?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Wallace]

How many shots did you have?
@ mods: I never ask for deleting anything (being it insults, strong jokes, being off topic), but such rookie trying to hi jack a thread b/c he don´t like what he reads goes to far. Agree?

Thanks in advance.

Really? You're going to talk about hijacking in a thread that started off being about Ullrich's potential and then devolved in yet another unsubstantiated accusation fest about whether or not LeMond doped? Which would make this about the 10 millionth pointless discussion about this? You know, until you come up with some evidence that LeMond doped (and at this point I haven't seen any) why not just let the whole topic die, because Jesus, do we really need to go over this again?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Late 97, after the introduction of the 50% limit. I think that is what you call coming to the party a bit late. There was an interview with Hein Verbruggen in Cycle Sport early 97 in which the widespread usage of EPO was discussed and how the UCI were trying to(allegedly combat it). In 96 there was an article in the same magazine about the quest to find a test for EPO.

Nicolas Aubier(who was a team-mate of LeMond) and Giles Delion already talked about the usage of EPO in L'Equipe early 97. Sandro DonatI's dossier was published in late 96 observing the widespread usage of EPO in ITALY. Saying in late 97 that the Italians changed the sport was like stating the obvious, every man and his dog knew EPO was being used.

There are some interesting snippets in that article but a lot of it does come across as willing blindness. LeMond didn't know most were on EPO in 94??? Maybe his team and a few other's werent but he was sure to know about it as I mentioned in my earlier post "he alluded to strange things happening in cycling".

Also interesting to note what he says about still being able to win one day races against EPO riders. Wait a second, must be another LeMond exception rule

LOL! Seriously, we know you're not a fan of LeMond(that's obvious), but do you honestly believe anything you've said here? Furthermore, what in the bloody blue bicycles are you talking about?

Do you honestly believe Greg had some sort of Mental telepathy or ESP gift, and he knew who did what? We'd be happy to take a look at any medical reports, or positive test results from Greg, if you have any(or know where they are), please post/share them.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I said unboubtedly LeMond knew of the usage of EPO in the peloton by the time he retired. Why did he allude to "strange things happening in cycling" when he retired?

.

And you know this how again? where is this info?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Really? You're going to talk about hijacking in a thread that started off being about Ullrich's potential and then devolved in yet another unsubstantiated accusation fest about whether or not LeMond doped? Which would make this about the 10 millionth pointless discussion about this? You know, until you come up with some evidence that LeMond doped (and at this point I haven't seen any) why not just let the whole topic die, because Jesus, do we really need to go over this again?

This. Every so often, someone comes around and starts in with the "Lemond doped too" nonsense, even despite claiming "I have no proof he did", nor providing any to back their claims up. It's usually debunked within a few posts, then they go away, and someone else returns to post the same nonsense. Rinse, wash, repeat.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I thought this was a Ullrich thread. Whatever. My question would be* how the Lemond defenders (I defend him too when it´s proper) explain his crazy up/down performances after his "deathbead" incident. Something all very sucsessful riders seem to have had. But I don´t use that against Lemond. I just mention it.
More interesting are the mysterious sicknesses he had. This common thing with other big time winners is more suspicious.
Why are gruppeto results are used against other riders, while Lemonds are just ignored.
I would not say with certainty that Lemond was clean in the most doping riddled era of cycling.
OTOH, it speaks for him that no one accused him ever (AFIK), and that he worked with Koechli.

Really? You're going to talk about hijacking in a thread that started off being about Ullrich's potential and then devolved in yet another unsubstantiated accusation fest about whether or not LeMond doped? Which would make this about the 10 millionth pointless discussion about this? You know, until you come up with some evidence that LeMond doped (and at this point I haven't seen any) why not just let the whole topic die, because Jesus, do we really need to go over this again?

As you see I didn´t start, but since the topic was interesting, I joined, and there was some good exchange. But if you like bolded or un bolded = thus unreadable... Well, I can hold up a mirror. WTF, just let this thread also be full of spam. Why not. I would have liked to talk about Ullrich, as I tried a couple of pages ago. But as usual ... WTF ... I am out of here

 

[Afrank]

I don't really mind a slight tangent off the original discussion begun by the OP, as long as it does not go far off topic. But please keep the tone of the discussion polite and address the points other posters bring up.

And let's not post in giant bold letters. It makes the thread difficult to read.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Now if the mods would also correct the post of "MonkeyFace", I will stop writing in big letters. If he can´t answer in a proper way, that´s not my problem. But I think it´s impertinent to manipulate my orinial post.... Whatever lets talk Ullrich, Lemond is untouchable. It´s only a forum.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Also interesting to note what he says about still being able to win one day races against EPO riders. Wait a second, must be another LeMond exception rule

Just ask Edwig van Hooijdonck, perhaps he will be able to persuade you on the workings of EPO. Tip, when you go on your google search make sure you include 'Museeuw Hooijdonck Fleche Brabanconne 1996'.

Oh wait, Edwig was a sh!tty one day racer to begin with...

 

[pmcg76]

LOL! Seriously, we know you're not a fan of LeMond(that's obvious), but do you honestly believe anything you've said here? Furthermore, what in the bloody blue bicycles are you talking about?

Do you honestly believe Greg had some sort of Mental telepathy or ESP gift, and he knew who did what? We'd be happy to take a look at any medical reports, or positive test results from Greg, if you have any(or know where they are), please post/share them.

I believe everything I posted because amazingly they are mostly facts, not opinion. Donati, Aubier, Delion, Verbruugen interview, search for an EPO test are all facts.

There were those who claim they were aware of EPO from as early as 89/90 but you want to tell me LeMond had still never heard of EPO by the time he retired end of 94.

What year did Ferrari make his EPO/Orange juice comment, spring 94. I guess LeMond must have been living in his little ol world to miss that comment.

 

[pmcg76]

Just ask Edwig van Hooijdonck, perhaps he will be able to persuade you on the workings of EPO. Tip, when you go on your google search make sure you include 'Museeuw Hooijdonck Fleche Brabanconne 1996'.

Oh wait, Edwig was a sh!tty one day racer to begin with...

Maybe you should ask Edwig to take it up with LeMond then, I didn't make the comment, LeMond did.

Funny though LeMond's belief was something that Toni Rominger said was possible also on a good day.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Maybe you should ask Edwig to take it up with LeMond then, I didn't make the comment, LeMond did.

Funny though LeMond's belief was something that Toni Rominger said was possible also on a good day.

Guess you missed the time Edwig told about Museeuw killing him on the big ring the day AFTER he was one of the big guns at E3 Harelbeke. That is what EPO brought, being able to compete day after day after day.

So, where is the LeMond quote wrong that in a one day race one could somehow compete against EPO fuel given Edwig topped three at Brabançonne against EPO Museeuw?

 

[andy1234]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcg76 View Post
I said unboubtedly LeMond knew of the usage of EPO in the peloton by the time he retired. Why did he allude to "strange things happening in cycling" when he retired?

And you know this how again? where is this info?

By 92, knowledge of EPO was widespread.
Even as an amateur, I knew about it, my teammates knew about it, team staff knew about it.....

Admittedly, not everyone knew how effective or significant it was, but to suggest that LeMond didn't know what time it was, by the time he retired, is simply a fallacy. Roger Legeay was in fact one of the first to discuss the EPO issue.

Why he chose to claim ignorance, is anybody's guess.

 

[Netserk]

According to Lemond himself, he first heard of EPO in 1990.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I believe everything I posted because amazingly they are mostly facts, not opinion. Donati, Aubier, Delion, Verbruugen interview, search for an EPO test are all facts.

Where are these "amazing facts" you speak of, care to post them?

ANYTHING out of Verbruugens pie hole is a complete lie/fabrication.

There were those who claim they were aware of EPO from as early as 89/90 but you want to tell me LeMond had still never heard of EPO by the time he retired end of 94.

I never said he didn't know about them in '94, he did(he even said so in a round about sort of way, hence why he RETIRED in 94). Infact IIRC, didn't he even say as much in an interview on youtube? (I posted the interview below for you).

http://youtu.be/LLiusWwYXIo He clearly shows here he knows why he was getting lapped and beaten by other riders.

What year did Ferrari make his EPO/Orange juice comment, spring 94.

Got this info from where?

I guess LeMond must have been living in his little ol world to miss that comment.

How do you know he "missed the comment"? Explain?

Again, what are you talking about?